Split:OSAS (from Father Corapi ... on Baptism & Protestants)

[CentralFLJames]

I am jumping in real quick here since guanaphore seems to be away at the moment.

Father Corapi ... on Baptism & Protestants

If the Sacraments produce grace and you must do the sacraments in order to receive additional grace, then you are producing your own works in order to gain more grace. Grace is not a partial thing; it is a gift (100%); are you receiving your gift in pieces based on what you perform…come on; anyone can see that is a works salvation; are you so blind that you cannot see?

Your statements are in error and are not biblical. Grace does not operate instantaneously nor is it all given in one motion. If it was every person would have every gift of the spirit and every person would have an angel approach them and say “hail full of grace - the Lord is with thee!”. Only one human ever was full of grace at conception and all her life and that was Mary because she is blessed above all others. We, God’s aspirant children who receive the initial baptismal seed of sanctifying grace at baptism must labor to walk with God’s trials (which is a work of faith and love) in His season to permit that seed of grace to grow and transform us interiorally into children of light. It is a divinization process called theosis. For some it bears fruit sooner than others just as each sapling owing to its own conditions of existence and environment basks in more perfect light and has more nutrients etc. than some others who may be surrounded by shade covers and weeds that interfere with growth and conspire to cut one off. God’s grace will pervail in all cases where one taps into deep soil and does not draw from the shallow and infertile sand of artificial theology.

It is your own personal theology and non-apostolic teaching that makes understanding a simple concepts of Christ teachings into a perspiring mental work and difficult labor. I rarely see such cases of a person so inclined to thread scripture in every possible combination of ways other than the one direct correct way.

You must also consider that one must accept the gifts that were offered and then cooperate with them. If God gives you a jump rope - then by God He wants you to grab it and use it - and that means to perspire. Do you think Jesus’ commandment to the apostles to teach the gospel was intended to be a matter of shipping copies of bibles to every house on the planet and he did not intend for anyone to work? No - to have God’s grace is a true burden of love and it is a work just to accept it, to possess it and to keep it and to share it.

Explain the error. Further more, Catholic teaching has changed saying “separated brethren” as opposed to saying those outside of Catholicism are damned. They are speaking out of both sides of their mouth and you know it; you will admit that among your Catholic buddies, but not before a Protestant. You also speak on both sides. If Vat II verifies the Council of Trent; the only way someone would not be damned outside the Church is if they are ignorant of Catholic teaching and put their faith in Christ.

It’s the same teaching but The Church, in a spirit of ecumenical outreach has reworded it in a more modern and inclusive vernacular. You are still seperated but by baptism you are still part of the family so to speak - in the same manner as the prodigal’s son who squandered his inheritance. But make no mistake about it - those that become impoverished through separation and do not return to God’s Church will suffer severe loss. It is by consequence of separation and sin that many will return to Their Father’s House - which is The Catholic Church. But many won’t and these will remain lost if they do not repent before it is too late.

I would concede that is would appear to me that in the new Catholic re-expression with inclusive words Protestants might continue in their tradition of protest against anything the pope teaches and come up with their own newly re-expressed sola. Perhaps your new sola should be:** “Not by faith alone - but by invincible ignorance”.** Anyone have the Latin translation for this? Let me take a stab - ‘non per Sola Fide unus tamen per indomitable ignarus’ ?

[continued]

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

[continued from above]

Semantics and you know it. “Walk in the works” The Bible teaches that the works are the after flow of the 100% grace that has already been received. Just like water baptism always follows conversion. Tell me about your “right relationship” with God; I and others will be anxiously ready to hear your testimony; please include how you plan to keep that right relationship.
Please; let us all hear your answer in relation to Ephesians 2:8-9.
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

But the bible is an inanimate object and does not teach. People teach - specifically apostolicly ordained and appointed teachers teach. We have determined above that we get grace over our lives in accordance with what God gifts and each person has his own measure. You have a defective understanding of grace. There is no biblical basis that says water baptism always follows conversion - the normative way is to be brought into the Church through baptism - “bring the children to me”.

Yes, Paul is correct that “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.” – Ephesians 2:8-9

But you don’t understand what he means by grace nor do you understand that “saved” is simultaneously a past, present and future event.
" Salvation has an aspect of past:

Christian are already saved, past tense: “by grace you have been saved” (Ephesians 2:5,8). The believer is already justified by faith, i.e., declared righteous by God on account of Christ. Thus the apostle Paul speaks of justification as something that has already occurred for the believer: “Therefore, having been justified by faith…much more then, having now been justified by His blood…” (Romans 5:1,9). He cannot be more or less justified, for His legal standing before God depends on the perfect righteousness and sacrifice of Christ. In this sense salvation is a specific, past event, and therefore the Christian can be assured that he is accepted by God.

There is also a present aspect of salvation - called “sanctification” in Christian theology. Having been born again, the believer grows in the grace and knowledge of Christ to become more and more like Him. He was freed from condemnation (justification) and is now being freed from the practice of sin and is being taught how to live righteously. This is a life-long process and the Scriptures greatly emphasize this aspect of salvation:

“For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works” (Titus 2:11-14).

There is a third and future aspect of salvation. When the final judgement comes, the wrath of God will be poured upon sinful humanity. Yet we who believe shall be saved from the wrath to come. “Much more then, having now been justified by His blood (that’s the past aspect of salvation), we shall be saved from wrath through Him (that’s future)” (Romans 5:9). Glorification is the climax of our salvation and it has not happened yet. We shall be freed from our mortal body and God will give His children an immortal and glorified body. “…we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. For we were saved in this hope…” (Romans 8:23,24).

Am I saved? Yes, I have been saved from the guilt of sin. I am being saved from the power of sin in my life. And I will be saved from wrath and from the presence of sin when Christ returns and takes me home.

That is a false gospel based on what you do to receive God’s grace; grace is no longer grace with you; this is mocking the cross where it was finished; one sacrifice one for all delivered to the saints; not to false disciples.

It most certainly was not “finished” on the cross unless you do not think the resurrection was important. You are mocking good sense. We must demonstrate our faith and DO what Christ commands. We are not just mindless empty water jugs to have water pored into us and converted into wine. We are responsible for our obedience to Christ and not cracking our own pots so to speak. Speaking of cracked pots, why would you think to call the truth false?

Evidence of one’s salvation in manifest through works; the grace was dispensed back at the cross. You got one chance to get it right; if you were to pass on today; based on the gospel you are teaching you will die in your sin and worse; you may influence others to do the same.

Wrong! This is universal salvation - and is utterly heretical. No one gets grace automatically by birth right. One must be called by Christ and one must accept that grace “let it be done to me according to thy will” and then one must serve Grace "I am a handmaid of the Lord’.

(Edited)

James

 

[Seeking12]

I am jumping in real quick here since guanaphore seems to be away at the moment.

Your statements are in error and are not biblical. Grace does not operate instantaneously nor is it all given in one motion. If it was every person would have every gift of the spirit and every person would have an angel approach them and say “hail full of grace - the Lord is with thee!”. Only one human ever was full of grace at conception and all her life and that was Mary because she is blessed above all others. We, God’s aspirant children who receive the initial baptismal seed of sanctifying grace at baptism must labor to walk with God’s trials (which is a work of faith and love) in His season to permit that seed of grace to grow and transform us interiorally into children of light. It is a divinization process called theosis. For some it bears fruit sooner than others just as each sapling owing to its own conditions of existence and environment basks in more perfect light and has more nutrients etc. than some others who may be surrounded by shade covers and weeds that interfere with growth and conspire to cut one off. God’s grace will pervail in all cases where one taps into deep soil and does not draw from the shallow and infertile sand of artificial theology.

It is your own personal theology and non-apostolic teaching that makes understanding a simple concepts of Christ teachings into a perspiring mental work and difficult labor. I rarely see such cases of a person so inclined to thread scripture in every possible combination of ways other than the one direct correct way.

You must also consider that one must accept the gifts that were offered and then cooperate with them. If God gives you a jump rope - then by God He wants you to grab it and use it - and that means to perspire. Do you think Jesus’ commandment to the apostles to teach the gospel was intended to be a matter of shipping copies of bibles to every house on the planet and he did not intend for anyone to work? No - to have God’s grace is a true burden of love and it is a work just to accept it, to possess it and to keep it and to share it.

It’s the same teaching but The Church, in a spirit of ecumenical outreach has reworded it in a more modern and inclusive vernacular. You are still seperated but by baptism you are still part of the family so to speak - in the same manner as the prodigal’s son who squandered his inheritance. But make no mistake about it - those that become impoverished through separation and do not return to God’s Church will suffer severe loss. It is by consequence of separation and sin that many will return to Their Father’s House - which is The Catholic Church. But many won’t and these will remain lost if they do not repent before it is too late.

I would concede that is would appear to me that in the new Catholic re-expression with inclusive words Protestants might continue in their tradition of protest against anything the pope teaches and come up with their own newly re-expressed sola. Perhaps your new sola should be:** “Not by faith alone - but by invincible ignorance”.** Anyone have the Latin translation for this? Let me take a stab - ‘non per Sola Fide unus tamen per indomitable ignarus’ ?

[continued]

James

**James, you are as good as dead in your sin; there is no way semantics is going to change the truth that God gives 100% saving grace at one time; you are proof of the the fact that it is 100% or 0%; otherwise you could never write such nonsense as the post above; much less speak for guanaphore.

Tell me James; what must one do to be saved? You seem to know everything; so this should be real easy for you to answer for all to see. Let’s have it; I can’t wait!**

 

[Seeking12]

Seeker, nothing in the Bible, properly interpreted, contradicts anything else.

Read James 2:14-26

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? 17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. 19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. 20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and** faith was completed by the works**. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” 24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? 26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Also, read Jesus’ account of Judgement Day in Matthew 25:31-46. What are the criteria He uses to judge folks with regard to sending them to heaven or hell? **Works! **
37… 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
**38 ****When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? ****39 ****When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ **
Works is a necessary part of true, salvific faith.

**What this means is you do not understand James; which has proven a stumbling block for many including yourself. You cannot get around the plain reading of Ephesians 2:8-9; I believe Paul went out of his way to make it so simple an understanding that a 5 year can comprehend it. Therefore’ if James does not agree with Paul then there are only 2 possibilities 1) Scripture contradicts itself or 2) you have no understanding of how works and faith are related in the gospel.

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

Why? Because {they did} not {pursue it} by faith, but as though {it were} by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,

This last verse is you!**

 

[Scoobyshme]

What this means is you do not understand James; which has proven a stumbling block for many including yourself. You cannot get around the plain reading of Ephesians 2:8-9; I believe Paul went out of his way to make it so simple an understanding that a 5 year can comprehend it. Therefore’ if James does not agree with Paul then there are only 2 possibilities 1) Scripture contradicts itself or 2) you have no understanding of how works and faith are related in the gospel.

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

**just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: **

Why? Because {they did} not {pursue it} by faith, but as though {it were} by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,

This last verse is you!

I said at the very top of my post:Originally Posted by Scoobyshme forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*Seeker, nothing in the Bible, properly interpreted, contradicts anything else.
*

So, if you think James contradicts anything else in Ephesians or elsewhere, then your interpretation is incorrect.

With regard to Ephesians 2:8-9, even if we assume that Paul is speaking of “good works” when he says we have not been saved by works, this in no way conflicts with Catholic theology. Notice that the passage speaks of salvation in the past tense-“you *have been *saved.” In Greek this is the perfect tense, which denotes a past, completed action.

We know from other passages in Paul that salvation also has present and future.aspects, so the kind of salvation Paul is discussing in Ephesians 2:8-9 is initial salvation. It is the kind which we received when we first came to God and were justified, not the kind of salvation we are now receiving (cf. 1 Peter 1:8-9, Phil. 2:12) or the kind we will one day receive (cf. Rom. 13:11, 1 Cor. 3:15, 5:5).

But the Catholic Church does not teach that we receive initial justification by good works. You do not have to do good works in order to come to God and be justified.

The Council of Trent states: “We are said to be justified by grace because nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification. For ‘if it is by grace, it is no longer by works; otherwise,’ as the apostle says, ‘grace is no more grace’ [Rom. 11:6]” (*Decree on Justification *8).

So even if Paul were using “works” to mean “good works” in Ephesians 2:8-9, there is no conflict with Catholic theology. However, Paul probably does not mean “good works.” Normally when he says “works,” he means “works of the Law.” His point is to stress that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, not by obeying the Mosaic Law. Jews have no ability to boast in front of Gentiles of having a privileged relationship with God because they keep the Mosaic Law and its requirement of circumcision (cf. Romans 2:6-11, 17-21, 25-29, 3:21-22, 27-30).

These same elements-works, boasting, circumcision, and the Jewish/Gentile distinction-are present in Ephesians 2. Paul discusses how Jew and Gentiles are united together in the body of Christ and mentions works in connection with boasting, before turning to the whole subject of circumcision and membership in Christ:

“Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision . . . remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel . . . But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the Law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two . . . and might reconcile us both to God in one body. . . . So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God” (Eph. 2:11-19).

Because of the common themes of both passages, Paul is probably using “works” and “boasting” here as he does in Romans, i.e., of Jews boasting before Gentiles of having privilege with God due to their keeping the Mosaic Law.

The apostle then turns our attention away from works of the Mosaic Law and toward the kind of works a Christian *should *be interested in-good works: “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (Eph. 2:10).

The sense of what Paul is saying is: "God has raised up both of us-Jews and Gentiles-to sit in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, for we received initial salvation as a gift. We obtained it by faith in Christ (which itself is a gift from God), not by works of obedience to the Mosaic Law. So neither Jew or Gentile can boast over the other of having privilege with God. “Instead, we Christians are the result of God’s work, for he created us anew in the body of Christ so that we might do good works-the kind of works we *should be *concerned about-for God intended ahead of time for us to do them” (paraphrase of Eph. 2:6-10).

See the whole article at the following link: catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9909chap.asp

 

[CentralFLJames]

**James, you are as good as dead in your sin; there is no way semantics is going to change the truth that God gives 100% saving grace at one time; you are proof of the the fact that it is 100% or 0%; otherwise you could never write such nonsense as the post above; much less speak for guanaphore.

Tell me James; what must one do to be saved? You seem to know everything; so this should be real easy for you to answer for all to see. Let’s have it; I can’t wait!**

Well Seeking12 it seems you have just jumped right in here and already judged me lost before God gets a chance to have a word or offer any Mercy on the matter. I guess I should just resign to the idea that you speak for God. Did God appoint you His Vicar (pope) and not tell the rest of us?

I take note that you gave absolutely no intellectual rebuttal to my statements and left me with just your naked judgement. So I must assume you are incapable of expressing how it is nonsence and that my words went right over your head. Not surprising…

What you must do to attain salvation is to be baptised, repent of all your sins and start living a Christian life. One must obey the apostolic Church authority and be charitable (love God and neighbor). One must be performs acts of mercy to receive mercy. One must forgive other’s their transgression to be forgiven. One must pray fervently - daily and even hourly. One must practice self denial. One must not judge or judge fairly least they be judged according to your own standard (like you judged me lost and dead in sin). One must participate in community worship within the flock of believers in communion with the Catholic Church and receive the Blessed Sacraments worthily (Body and Blood of Christ). One must avoid the occasion of sin but expect that God will test your faith to help you progress in it but never tests you beyond your limits. But God being perfect wants us to be perfect and will push us hard to perfect us. Like a growing tree God’s grace works in us and we grow in our knowledge and understanding but also our spiritual capacity. God keeps us in grace according to His economy of precious Grace and never wastes any - giving each of us gifts of the Holy Spirit He will ordain to us. To much that is given much is expected and therefor one must serve to their full capacity. One must suffer in Christ too and we will be given suffrages over our life so we may share in Christ’s passion so we may share in his glory too. If we sin as did the apostles we again must feel remorse and repent and be forgiven by Christ - through His apostolic authority to forgive sins. This requires penance (prayer, acts of charity, and fasting) to facilitate the interior state of contrition to let grace work in us.

If you want it all - please see the exhaustive Catholic Cathecism that so far no one has tried to hijack (like they did the bible) and claim it as their own.

It is here: vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

James

 

[SteveGC]

** there is no way semantics is going to change the truth that God gives 100% saving grace at one time**

(Edited)

Secondly, show me where in the Bible, that a person receives 100% saving grace from God at one time.

God Bless you

 

[Seeking12]

I said at the very top of my post:Originally Posted by Scoobyshme forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*Seeker, nothing in the Bible, properly interpreted, contradicts anything else.
*

So, if you think James contradicts anything else in Ephesians or elsewhere, then your interpretation is incorrect.

With regard to Ephesians 2:8-9, even if we assume that Paul is speaking of “good works” when he says we have not been saved by works, this in no way conflicts with Catholic theology. Notice that the passage speaks of salvation in the past tense-“you *have been *saved.” In Greek this is the perfect tense, which denotes a past, completed action.

We know from other passages in Paul that salvation also has present and future.aspects, so the kind of salvation Paul is discussing in Ephesians 2:8-9 is initial salvation. It is the kind which we received when we first came to God and were justified, not the kind of salvation we are now receiving (cf. 1 Peter 1:8-9, Phil. 2:12) or the kind we will one day receive (cf. Rom. 13:11, 1 Cor. 3:15, 5:5).

But the Catholic Church does not teach that we receive initial justification by good works. You do not have to do good works in order to come to God and be justified.

The Council of Trent states: “We are said to be justified by grace because nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification. For ‘if it is by grace, it is no longer by works; otherwise,’ as the apostle says, ‘grace is no more grace’ [Rom. 11:6]” (*Decree on Justification *8).

So even if Paul were using “works” to mean “good works” in Ephesians 2:8-9, there is no conflict with Catholic theology. However, Paul probably does not mean “good works.” Normally when he says “works,” he means “works of the Law.” His point is to stress that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, not by obeying the Mosaic Law. Jews have no ability to boast in front of Gentiles of having a privileged relationship with God because they keep the Mosaic Law and its requirement of circumcision (cf. Romans 2:6-11, 17-21, 25-29, 3:21-22, 27-30).

These same elements-works, boasting, circumcision, and the Jewish/Gentile distinction-are present in Ephesians 2. Paul discusses how Jew and Gentiles are united together in the body of Christ and mentions works in connection with boasting, before turning to the whole subject of circumcision and membership in Christ:

“Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision . . . remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel . . . But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the Law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two . . . and might reconcile us both to God in one body. . . . So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God” (Eph. 2:11-19).

Because of the common themes of both passages, Paul is probably using “works” and “boasting” here as he does in Romans, i.e., of Jews boasting before Gentiles of having privilege with God due to their keeping the Mosaic Law.

The apostle then turns our attention away from works of the Mosaic Law and toward the kind of works a Christian *should *be interested in-good works: “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (Eph. 2:10).

The sense of what Paul is saying is: "God has raised up both of us-Jews and Gentiles-to sit in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, for we received initial salvation as a gift. We obtained it by faith in Christ (which itself is a gift from God), not by works of obedience to the Mosaic Law. So neither Jew or Gentile can boast over the other of having privilege with God. “Instead, we Christians are the result of God’s work, for he created us anew in the body of Christ so that we might do good works-the kind of works we *should be *concerned about-for God intended ahead of time for us to do them” (paraphrase of Eph. 2:6-10).

See the whole article at the following link: catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9909chap.asp

You don’t even know what your church teaches; what is the purpose if infant baptism in your church? Paul is referring to salvation; if you died you would be in heaven immediately type of salvation; their is not more than one salvation is their?

 

[guanophore]

Both grace and works are required for salvation.

Go read the seventh chapter of Matthew.

I think this is not a helpful formulation to use. I say that because Scritpure is clear that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not of works. Therefore wording it this way causes confusion.

We are saved by grace. That grace expresses itself through faith and works, as the Apostle teaches, the only thing that ‘counts’ is “faith working through love”. Faith can only work through love because of grace - not of ourselves, lest we should boast. Grace is the cause and the mover of all.

 

[Seeking12]

Well Seeking12 it seems you have just jumped right in here and already judged me lost before God gets a chance to have a word or offer any Mercy on the matter. I guess I should just resign to the idea that you speak for God. Did God appoint you His Vicar (pope) and not tell the rest of us?

I take note that you gave absolutely no intellectual rebuttal to my statements and left me with just your naked judgement. So I must assume you are incapable of expressing how it is nonsence and that my words went right over your head. Not surprising…

What you must do to attain salvation is to be baptised, repent of all your sins and start living a Christian life. One must obey the apostolic Church authority and be charitable (love God and neighbor). One must be performs acts of mercy to receive mercy. One must forgive other’s their transgression to be forgiven. One must pray fervently - daily and even hourly. One must practice self denial. One must not judge or judge fairly least they be judged according to your own standard (like you judged me lost and dead in sin). One must participate in community worship within the flock of believers in communion with the Catholic Church and receive the Blessed Sacraments worthily (Body and Blood of Christ). One must avoid the occasion of sin but expect that God will test your faith to help you progress in it but never tests you beyond your limits. But God being perfect wants us to be perfect and will push us hard to perfect us. Like a growing tree God’s grace works in us and we grow in our knowledge and understanding but also our spiritual capacity. God keeps us in grace according to His economy of precious Grace and never wastes any - giving each of us gifts of the Holy Spirit He will ordain to us. To much that is given much is expected and therefor one must serve to their full capacity. One must suffer in Christ too and we will be given suffrages over our life so we may share in Christ’s passion so we may share in his glory too. If we sin as did the apostles we again must feel remorse and repent and be forgiven by Christ - through His apostolic authority to forgive sins. This requires penance (prayer, acts of charity, and fasting) to facilitate the interior state of contrition to let grace work in us.

If you want it all - please see the exhaustive Catholic Cathecism that so far no one has tried to hijack (like they did the bible) and claim it as their own.

It is here: vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

James

**
James, now I know I’m right and heaven is in agreement you are bound in your sin at this point of your life. You just described, in great detail, a works salvation. Look how many times you used the term “one must”; you have it all wrong. In addition; you said one must obey the Church teaching. One must perform acts of mercy. You are so blind James and you are not set free from the bondage of sin and the accompanying wrath of God.

James, if you really want to be saved, then realize what a filthy piece of scum you are before a Holy God, like the poor tax collector, turn away from your sin and turn to Jesus as King and Savior, believe God raised Him from the dead and you will be saved. It is by Gods grace though faith in Jesus alone.

May God have mercy on you James; I mean that from the deepest pit of my heart.**

 

[Seeking12]

I think this is not a helpful formulation to use. I say that because Scritpure is clear that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not of works. Therefore wording it this way causes confusion.

We are saved by grace. That grace expresses itself through faith and works, as the Apostle teaches, the only thing that ‘counts’ is “faith working through love”. Faith can only work through love because of grace - not of ourselves, lest we should boast. Grace is the cause and the mover of all.

You said it perfectly; so stop talking after that. How are you going to use semantics to change the truth you just stated? Can’t wait to see how you pull this of; if you do, then you are in the right religion.

 

[sodak]

Do you agree you must receive the Sacraments toward salvation and that those sacraments increase grace?

The sacraments are the means by which we are given to access God’s grace. Jesus often used everyday items to cure people and perform miracles, .e.g, wine, spitting in mud, etc. So yes, they increase grace, but probably not in the way you are thinking. I’m not sure I understand what your definition of the word “grace” is…

Of course we must receive them for Salvation. Baptism, first and foremost, and Holy Communion at least once a year. Confession should be much more often of course. I don’t know about Confirmation, Matrimony and Holy Orders aren’t required, and Sacrament of the Sick is certainly desired, but I’m not sure about required. Did I miss any?

Are they not considered meritorious?

Well of course!

Do you also agree you can lose your salvation via mortal sin; yet through your action of penance can be restored?

Half right. You can certainly lose your salvation through mortal sin. You can be restored by the power of Jesus through penance. The power is not in our actions, we simply choose to repent and accept his grace. There’s that word again!

If you say yes to any of these, than grace is no longer grace because now it is Jesus plus, which is another gospel.

How on earth did you come to that conclusion? Jesus certainly set up his Church with full authority. Jesus also condemned those who say “Lord, Lord”, but refuse to follow him and do the will of the Father, as I recall.

Grace is an unmerited gift from God. We can choose to accept it or reject it. There are consequences either way.

 

[MarcoPolo]

James, if you really want to be saved, then realize what a filthy piece of scum you are before a Holy God

By Christ’s grace, God raises up the scum of humanity and conforms it to His Body. A child of God is not scum. He has Christ. Any good work we do in Christ is indeed valuable because it is His grace at work through us. Any denial of this is denial of Christ’s power, and of His sacrifice.

And my earlier questions bear repeating:

Can God not dispense a certain grace to a Christian who prays for it? Can a Christian pray for the grace to stop committing a certain sin, for example?

 

[CentralFLJames]

(Edited)

Having made the prior post let me now give you some insights that might help you overcome the spirit of calumny that seems to have taken home with you.

1. Grace is paramount but one must cooperate with grace. We are not mindless robots and automaton. We are rational beings fallen from original grace who were made in God’s image. Christ came to not only restore us to the pre-fail grace of our forefathers but to actually elevate us to a new nature higher than God originally created in us. Thus the Catholic expression "O happy fault, O necessary sin of Adam, that gained for us so great a Redeemer! "
2. I have not got it all wrong. A gift must be accepted - it is never forced. Minimally that requires an act of humility since we can never meet the customary obligation to return a gift of similar worth since our given gift exceeds our nature and is eternal. Thus in accepting the gift of grace we have simultaneous with the acceptance the antidote (humility) of original sin - pride, greed, and the desire for self-sufficiency. But God in His goodness does not want us to be enslaved to debt - he wants us to use the gift of grace to return to Him a pure soul that can love also bring Him other souls. Thus we are slaves to love through consent and that is as much a labor as a woman has in gestating a new child and suffering the labor pains. Please try to get a little deeper in your spirituality and see that you are arguing for the sake of your Protestant doctrine - which no Protestants truly believes but only regurgitates as dogma.
3. Acts of Mercy are in fact necessary for a child of God since its an automatic reflex of Divine Nature. If you do not perform acts of mercy then you lack signal graces that you are in a process of salvation since you do not act and behave like Jesus without these behaviors. A child emulates its Father and we therefore emulate our Merciful father by example given by Christ. If you can not see that then you are a distant from Christ. If you knew your scriptures you would find all the following in your bible:

Acts & Works of Mercy Required of Christians:

CORPORAL WORKS OF MERCY(Acts of compassion and love by which we care for our neighbor’s physical or bodily needs)
Feed the hungry
Give drink to the thirsty
Clothe the naked
Shelter the homeless
Comfort the imprisoned
Visit the sick
Bury the dead

SPIRITUAL WORKS OF MERCY
(Acts of compassion and love by which we care for our neighbor’s spiritual needs)
Admonish the sinner
Instruct the ignorant
Counsel the doubtful
Comfort the sorrowful
Bear wrongs patiently
Forgive all injuries
Pray for the living and the dead

1. As for me or anyone else being filthy scum - you demonstrate that you do not recognize the dignity of Christ in each of us nor do you comprehend the the saving power of Christ. Before we are baptise and transformed into Christ we are subject to the wages of sin - which is death. In that state we are like suffering lepers and spiritually disfigured in sin. But Christ heals us and renews us. He does more than just cover over our sins. We are more than Luther’s “snow covered dunghill”. We receive a real genuine inner transformation and become new creatures that are worthy to stand confidently before God. God could never tolerate to suffer a veneer of grace over a perverse core - God is authentic. He wants us to be truly Christ like inside and out.

God will not accept white washed rags into his presence he wants his children whole and complete and without blemish and will give us a new glorified body to match our purified and whole cloth souls so that we can come to the wedding feast in pure robes worthy of The Lamb of God so we can give Him authentic worship.

You really are missing about 90% of the Christian message and I encourage you to start asking questions and learning the true apostolic teachings of The Catholic Church.

James

 

[sodak]

**Grace is unmerited favor; it is a gift from God to His elect. This is much different than blessing. Sacraments give “access” to God’s grace, then why the heck did Christ die on a cross? You cannot work your way to God; you also have now stated a works salvation. Those works being defined by the Catholic Church in cooperation with Jesus. :banghead:

If you just stuck to your last statement; you would be in the right path; but as it is you are on the broad road with the rest of those who put their faith in their religion or their religion plus Jesus.**

I agree that it is an unmerited favor. Do you not believe that someone who willfully and with full knowledge rejects Jesus their whole life puts their soul in eternal peril? Isn’t accepting Jesus cooperating with Him? Or do you believe that everyone will go to heaven because of the cross, no matter what they believe?

I believe in Jesus and his Church. There’s no difference there, what you have set up is a false dichotomy.

James; you can’t take the heat; so now you will tattle or have already. How weak is your faith; can you not defend it? Isn’t that why you are here.

No. We are here to answer questions and teach about the Catholic Faith, not to be the subject of calumny. We do try to keep it civil for very good reasons.

 

[tobinatorstark]

Having made the prior post let me now give you some insights that might help you overcome the spirit of calumny that seems to have taken home with you.

1. Grace is paramount but one must cooperate with grace. We are not mindless robots and automaton. We are rational beings fallen from original grace who were made in God’s image. Christ came to not only restore us to the pre-fail grace of our forefathers but to actually elevate us to a new nature higher than God originally created in us. Thus the Catholic expression "O happy fault, O necessary sin of Adam, that gained for us so great a Redeemer! "
2. I have not got it all wrong. A gift must be accepted - it is never forced. Minimally that requires an act of humility since we can never meet the customary obligation to return a gift of similar worth since our given gift exceeds our nature and is eternal. Thus in accepting the gift of grace we have simultaneous with the acceptance the antidote (humility) of original sin - pride, greed, and the desire for self-sufficiency. But God in His goodness does not want us to be enslaved to debt - he wants us to use the gift of grace to return to Him a pure soul that can love also bring Him other souls. Thus we are slaves to love through consent and that is as much a labor as a woman has in gestating a new child and suffering the labor pains. Please try to get a little deeper in your spirituality and see that you are arguing for the sake of your Protestant doctrine - which no Protestants truly believes but only regurgitates as dogma.
3. Acts of Mercy are in fact necessary for a child of God since its an automatic reflex of Divine Nature. If you do not perform acts of mercy then you lack signal graces that you are in a process of salvation since you do not act and behave like Jesus without these behaviors. A child emulates its Father and we therefore emulate our Merciful father by example given by Christ. If you can not see that then you are a distant from Christ. If you knew your scriptures you would find all the following in your bible:
4. As for me or anyone else being filthy scum - you demonstrate that you do not recognize the dignity of Christ in each of us nor do you comprehend the the saving power of Christ. Before we are baptise and transformed into Christ we are subject to the wages of sin - which is death. In that state we are like suffering lepers and spiritually disfigured in sin. But Christ heals us and renews us. He does more than just cover over our sins. We are more than Luther’s “snow covered dunghill”. We receive a real genuine inner transformation and become new creatures that are worthy to stand confidently before God. God could never tolerate to suffer a veneer of grace over a perverse core - God is authentic. He wants us to be truly Christ like inside and out.

God will not accept white washed rags into his presence he wants his children whole and complete and without blemish and will give us a new glorified body to match our purified and whole cloth souls so that we can come to the wedding feast in pure robes worthy of The Lamb of God so we can give Him authentic worship.

You really are missing about 90% of the Christian message and I encourage you to start asking questions and learning the true apostolic teachings of The Catholic Church.

James

Way to stand up for yourself. I agree with you 100%

 

[SteveGC]

(Edited)
And it’s one thing to rebuke someone, profess them dead in their sins when you either have authority to do so, or you are at least witness to their withered fruit. Quite another to come to an online forum, read (and subsequently ignore) the comments of others based on their teaching, know NOT their heart, NOR bear witness to their fruit, and proclaim the same damnation. As a Bible-only believer, even you would claim to “know them by their fruit”, not their teaching.

I mean, nevermind that you are dead wrong on all these matters…but you rebuke those you have no knowledge of. In a way, I thank you for personifying the essence of “judge not, lest ye be judged”. Before this, I really hadn’t seen it demonstrated before me.

You debate CFJames on the Church’s guidance on salvation, claiming all of it is nonsense because it includes a “you must” essence. But then you, yourself, turn right around and claim YOU MUST have faith. So, let’s see…now you personify arrogance, wrongful judgment, and now the definition of a walking paradox. What in the world do you think faith is, Seeking? Besides obviously being a gift from God, does it have NOTHING to do with our will? We just all have this faith even if we don’t want it??

I know you don’t think that…so even in your theology, there is a “you must”. It is a response. What do you think our “works” are then?? I’ll tell you. They are responses to grace…just like faith is. Sure, faith comes first…you’ve never heard a Catholic say otherwise. But faith itself takes tremendous work…if it is to be true faith.

Good day

 

[Seeking12]

(Edited)

You debate CFJames on the Church’s guidance on salvation, claiming all of it is nonsense because it includes a “you must” essence. But then you, yourself, turn right around and claim YOU MUST have faith. So, let’s see…now you personify arrogance, wrongful judgment, and now the definition of a walking paradox. What in the world do you think faith is, Seeking? Besides obviously being a gift from God, does it have NOTHING to do with our will? We just all have this faith even if we don’t want it??

I know you don’t think that…so even in your theology, there is a “you must”. It is a response. What do you think our “works” are then?? I’ll tell you. They are responses to grace…just like faith is. Sure, faith comes first…you’ve never heard a Catholic say otherwise. But faith itself takes tremendous work…if it is to be true faith.

Good day

**The diatribe is useful in avoiding actually answering the question concerning salvation; which I do not believe you have an answer. At least James was bold enough to put his faith out there; can’t say as much for you.

You have also taken “judge not, least ye be judged” out of its context, but that is not surprising.

You MUST have faith before God will reach out to save His elect. God gives this faith as well. The “you must” James spoke of was not in the same context.

Many thought Jesus was arrogant because He told them the truth; so it is not me you call arrogant. Speak what is Biblical, you are speaking a foreign language to Scripture. As I said and meant before, my heart does go out to all of you because you do not know what is ahead of you if you don not change the path you are on.**

 

[CentralFLJames]

**The diatribe is useful in avoiding actually answering the question concerning salvation; which I do not believe you have an answer. At least James was bold enough to put his faith out there; can’t say as much for you.

You have also taken “judge not, least ye be judged” out of its context, but that is not surprising.

You MUST have faith before God will reach out to save His elect. God gives this faith as well. The “you must” James spoke of was not in the same context.

Many thought Jesus was arrogant because He told them the truth; so it is not me you call arrogant. Speak what is Biblical, you are speaking a foreign language to Scripture. As I said and meant before, my heart does go out to all of you because you do not know what is ahead of you if you don not change the path you are on.**

OK - let’s test your theory for rationality at the boundary conditions and see what come out of it from the Protestant point of view.

Protestant Conversion Scenario
You assert that the only “must do” happens during initial acceptance of Christ. So when a person who attends a Protestant revival tent (or other like altar-call venue) while under the influence and inspiration of all the good-ol foot-stomping and hand-clapping gospel music and the loudly shouted gospel verses by the preacher at the podium suddenly becomes convinced through emotion, personal reason, or intimidation (peer pressure) that they really must confess “I believe” - is this all that’s required? So after this person shouts “I finally really do believe in Jesus hallelujah!” and runs up and grabs the microphone and gives his testimony at the altar call (and gets dunked in the baptismal booth at some point) - is this the only required work? From then on its all God’s job and work from here and the newly saved person should do nothing that might appear as “works” out of fear that anything he does might offend God and be taken as not trusting in God?

OK. So let’s say thats the general gist of what you are saying for Protestants. Let’s now use a case from a Catholic perspective that is an easy case.

Catholic Conversion Scenario
Let’s say an adult (not religious) strolling in the park on a Sunday morning hears the local Catholic Church bells chiming and overcome by the pretty sounds goes to investigate. He enters the Catholic Church and finds all these people in the Catholic mass praying and worshiping God and is impressed that all seem to be at peace and appear to be authentic in their outward signs. So he becomes stirred in his heart decides to sit in the back and just watch. He comes to believe that this is true worship and afterwords inquires with the priest to learn more about becoming Catholic. After a period of preparation (1 year) and instructions in the faith he accepts Jesus as his personal savior during the baptismal rites and agrees to be baptised.

Now in your theology are both of these people equally saved at this point?

Can the Requirements be Exceeded? Do good works become evil?

If the Catholic is on equal footing with your Protestant at this point does the Catholic invalidate his salvation by deciding he would like to go volunteer at the hospital and do some good works for God? How about if he goes to confession to confess that he angrily screamed an obscenity at the drunken teenager who almost killed him and his family as the kid ran a red light in his car and he feels terrible about that? Does the Catholic lose his salvation for wanting to pray daily and going to mass and receiving the eucharist? Does the Catholic lose his salvation for fasting and doing things that he thinks help him get closer to God and overcome his faults because works are evil?

**The bottom line are works evil? Is there no good work?
In your personal theology and belief does the Catholic “believer” lose his salvation for exceeding the requirement for just “believing” or does his works prove that he does not really believe? What is your judgement in this and do you think God has a similar standard of judgement?

Or do you believe that its impossible for a person who calls himself Catholic to be a “believer”?
**

James

 

[WMM]

Then how is it grace if you need works? Please explain.
Ephesians 2:8-9 says "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. "

You boast in your works. Another gospel and not good for the soul.

How do you reconcile what this says compared to what you believe?

**Matthew 7:21-23 **"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, **but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven (this sounds like “works” to me) . ** Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.

**James 2: 14-26 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? ** If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

***The Word of the Lord. Thanks be to God.

Do not persist in your unbelief, but believe.***