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Split:OSAS (from Father Corapi ... on Baptism & Protestants)
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Church_Militant
Guest
The New Testament does indeed teach that one can lose one’s salvation.
Revelation 3:5 He that shall overcome, shall thus be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Name in Book of life = Eternal Life, right?
Name not in Book of Life = condemnation to hell, right?
Scripture above shows names being in that Book of Life and then blotted out.
Show me how that is not loss of salvation.
S
SemperReformada
Guest
It’s late but where does the verse say someones name is blotted out? Doesn’t it say just the opposite, that Jesus won’t blot a name out?
G
guanophore
Guest
"guanophore:
At the present time, you have demonstrated your prejudice against my faith sufficiently that it does not seem to me you will be significantly benefitted by my personal testimony.
Every day that I rise from bed and consecrate my life to God in Christ, I pray the scripture “it is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me”. I go to work and spend my live in the service of those in need and the suffering. I experience His grace at work in my effort, and His abundant blessings upon my meager striving. He effects healing,deliverance, blessing and redemption in my life, and the lives of those for whom I pray and serve. His grace was given to me that I could consecrate my day to Him. I had. More was given! At the end of the day, I return home in thanksgiving that more grace was poured out. Faith, working through love.
It is sad that you do not recognize this as God at work in the life of the belieiving heart.
It is amazing to meet someone who has been able to remove their log, and be so effective in addressing the specks of others.
Have you never wondered why the HS preserved the story of the blind man who was not cured instantly?
Oh, I do know it! I think that most of the separation we have with our brethren is a matter of semantics. The rest of it is what you have demonstrated here…misunderstanding.
Yes. It is no longer we who live, but Christ who lives in us. The life we now live, we live to God.
No.
Maybe some day.
At the present time, you have demonstrated your prejudice against my faith sufficiently that it does not seem to me you will be significantly benefitted by my personal testimony.
"guanophore:
You asked me to share my testimony. I have given you a small part of it here, and you have instantly judged my experience to be 'false, mocking, etc". Perhaps now you understand why I am reluctant to throw more pearls?
Every day that I rise from bed and consecrate my life to God in Christ, I pray the scripture “it is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me”. I go to work and spend my live in the service of those in need and the suffering. I experience His grace at work in my effort, and His abundant blessings upon my meager striving. He effects healing,deliverance, blessing and redemption in my life, and the lives of those for whom I pray and serve. His grace was given to me that I could consecrate my day to Him. I had. More was given! At the end of the day, I return home in thanksgiving that more grace was poured out. Faith, working through love.
It is sad that you do not recognize this as God at work in the life of the belieiving heart.
I see. It seems that you are unwilling to follow the Lord’s command to leave what you perceive as a “tare” to grow in the field until the harvest. You seem to feel the need to set the tares on fire immediately, as you have judged my faith, and found it wanting.
It is amazing to meet someone who has been able to remove their log, and be so effective in addressing the specks of others.
Well, thanks for your support James. At least we can be condemned together!
The fact that God reveals grace gradually at times does not negate that He gives 100% saving grace at one time.
Have you never wondered why the HS preserved the story of the blind man who was not cured instantly?
Let’s see. If James does not agree with you, then he has 0% grace?
18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.Code:2 Cor 3:18
We are being changed. One “degree” of glory to another. Does this seem like 100 % or 0%?
grace can and does build upon grace. To those that have, more will be given.
Seeking12;4868421:
I am grateful to James for stepping in when I am absent. He does speak for me, but not because he articulates my beliefs. More accruately, he speaks the truth that is taught by the Catholic church. To that extent, he speaks for all faithful Catholics.
He stands in the line of Apostolic Succession in speaking this truth in love, and to that extent, when you hear this teaching, you hear Christ.
G
guanophore
Guest
Reformed theology requires that one read these two verses in a vaccuum, most especially, separated from the next verse. One must “plainly read” them in isolation from the rest of the NT, and the remainder of the Apostolic teaching. Only when one can take this exclusionary approach can one prevent “stumbling” over all these other building blocks that Christ gave to the Church.
It seems that you do not realize this verse was written by a Catholic, for Catholics. It is in your NT because your NT is Catholic.
Again you have found it expedient to judge the hearts and souls of Jesus’ sheep. I think such a practice takes a lot of huevos, as we say here in the Southwest.
Apparently you have never known any Catholics that pursue the obedience of God’s commandments through faith.
Sadly, this is the case with the majority of Catholics. It was certainly true of me for most of my life. I am pleased to say that my time on CAF has helped to correct this.
Baptism washes away all sins, both original and personal. Baptism results in being “born again of water and the Spirit”. Through baptism, we are transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light.
No, but there are many ways to come to it, and some of them are not “immediate”.
It must be awesome to be so knowledgable about the souls of persons you have never met. How extraordinary!
Take heed James! Just so you realize the gravity of this warning, I read this on another thread:
Obviously, your fruits are lacking! You should listen to One who can prove the truth of opinion!
I can understand why it seems that way to you.
Clearly, James, you just don’t “get it”.
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” John 14:15-16
John 14:21
“He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”
Honestly, James. What must you be thinking? Don’t be carried away by what Jesus says! Listen rather to Seeking (aka “I God”)
“He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” Luke 10:16
How could James ever get the teaching of Jesus mixed up with the Apostolic Teaching of the Church?
Just ignore those scriptures that say that God created man, and called His creation “good”. Beleive what scripture never says. Believe on the word of “I God” (seeking12) that you are “a filthy peice of scum”!
On the contrary, faith is never alone, and Jesus is never alone. Faith abides with love and hope, and Jesus is never separated from His Body, the Church.
It is becoming increasingly clear that your heart is indeed, the deepest pit, or perhaps, in the deepest pit?
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guanophore
Guest
I think if you do this, Steve, you will find that Seeking12 actually knows your relationship with God much better than you do. This is why seeking12 can judge your response before you have made it!
By what we have been given to know already, perhaps it is good that we cannot know more of your “love”?
If Jesus had not died on the cross, then we would not have access to His grace. He provided sacraments as a means by which His saving grace can be applied to our lives
I think you misunderstand, Seeking. Cooperating with God’s grace cannot happen apart from grace.
What was Cornelius doing that made God notice him? Was this “work”?
Thank you for taking upon yourself the role of the angels, sorting out the wheat from the tares.
No, Seeking, you are wrong. James can take plenty of heat. He is warning you about the inevitable consequences of the violation of forum rules. These rules apply to all of us. You are violating them, and the results are often gettting banned. Are you so arrogant that you don’t think the rules apply to you?
God has no interest in being justified before men. Neither should we. Jesus specifically teaches otherwise. It is only being justified before God that matters. When this happens, we are automatically in right relationship with one another.
Except for you, that is. None of us appear to be in right relationship with you.
Indeed not! that is why we understand that those who fall away from grace actually HAD grace!
Can you abandon that which you do not have?
One cannot be “cut off” unless one is grafted in. One cannot have one’s name “blotted out” when it was not first written.
W
WMM
Guest
**I’m asking about works; do works show justification before God or men? ACTS 24:16 “In view of this, I also do my best to maintain always a blameless conscience {both} before God and before men.” If you read the rest of this you will see Paul was doing works to be justified before men.
Works are the fruits of righteousness that are visiable for all to
see.
"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
the very works that I do–testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me.
"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. But He does before men, right?
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
**
***You are saying then that faith and works **are necessary ***and that you do not consider works evil?
You are making progress!
God love you.**
C
Church_Militant
Guest
I’m glad you asked that SR.
Stop and consider for a second, doesn’t it plainly infer that anyone who doesn’t persevere will have their name blotted out?
I mean if ones name has to be in that book of life to be saved, and this verse clearly teaches that some names will be blotted out, then where does that leave OSAS/Eternal Security believers?
Answer: In error, that’s where.
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WMM
Guest
Where’s THAT in the Bible?
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Of course they will not understand that “life everlasting” is the future tense of salvation where those who finish in Christ are glorified in Christ and no one who gains eternal life and beatitude in heaven can ever again be seperated from God (e.g. plucked out of Jesus’ hand).
It is those who never “finish” in Christ that will lose their inheritance and their crowns. Those that toss off their crosses before they get all the way up the hill to Calvary and refuse to “die in Christ” so that they are not subject to the law (since death in Christ dis-empowers the law) will become again subject to the law and be judged according to The Law - a TERRIBLE thought. Who can face the letter of The Law and escape with his life?
*Matt 24:9-13
9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name.
10 "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another.
11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many.
12 "And because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love (agape) will grow cold.
13 "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved.
2 Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”
Galatians 5:2-6 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. *
Even Martin Luther acknowledged that one can fall from grace and be condemned to hell if once one is Christian such a one trusting in their own ability to conform to the law rather than in Christ reverts back to a covenant of observance of the OT laws. One is either under the covenant of Law or one is under the covenant of Christian Mercy and Forgiveness. Returning to the covenant of Law to seek to “earn” salvation by merit of obedience to Law nullifies the atonement of Christ and one will be judged according to the letter of the law. That sure sounds to me like Luther also thought one can lose their grace and their salvation. It is so odd to me how modern society seems to have forgotten the dire underlying meaning of the word “disgraced” (e.g. literally losing one’s saving grace). And as an aside I can’t imagine how Jews can live with the anxiety of knowledge that the must some day face God’s exacting Judgement to a strict interpretation of The Law. “Woe is me” must be a common and frequent expression among Jews…
Martin Luther:
James
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Seeking12
Guest
**
That is correct; that verse is basically stating that names in the book are so sure; they will never be blotted out. If your name is in the Book of Life, which the elects names were put there before all creation; then it cannot be taken out. Ya better hope it is in there. There are no additions as well.**
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Seeking12
Guest
**No one can lose a salvation they never had to begin with and "that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. " (Php. 1:6)
Galatians 5:4 “You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
These people that have fallen from grace were exposed to the truth and have fallen away from that truth by trying to work their salvation, this is common grace; being exposed to the truth; not saving grace.
Galatians 5:5 “For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.”
These two verses show the contrast between being saved by faith versus the works.
2Peter 2:20 shows the same thing; they received what kind of knowledge? The knowledge of Jesus; but turned back from that knowledge and placed themselves right back under the law, which made their situation worse than before. These people were never saved.
1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not {really} of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but {they went out,} so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. **
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Seeking12
Guest
That is one place; good passage-good work there Mr. Militant.
Do you disagree with you answer?
S
Seeking12
Guest
You do the same as you accused me of; what kind of answer is that? I have the gospel of Jesus Christ; you have the gospel of the …
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Seeking12
Guest
**Church Militant gave one answer; do you believe what God said there or not?
Perhaps you will believe God here:
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. "
Will you believe God here?
Romans 8:35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
In case you have any remaining doubt, then will you now believe God?
But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, R404 nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Here are few other from John 17
but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.
“Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.”
"While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. (Oh what a promise; Jesus is guarding His own, what comfort and security)
Remember Jesus was in the perfect will of the Father and His prayers were the perfect will; therefore whatever Jesus prays is or will be done.**
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CentralFLJames
Guest
This is “common grace” not saving grace? And you can show us some verses in scripture that makes a distinction between the two? Catholic know the correct teaching but I’d like to see if you can prove this from scripture.
Catholics have been teaching grace for 2,000 years. Our understanding and teaching of grace is holistic. I don’t really know what YOU mean by “common grace” or if its similar to what Catholics call “actual grace” or “sanctifying grace” (I presume the prior). Sanctifying grace stays in the soul. It’s what makes the soul holy; it gives the soul supernatural life. More properly, it is supernatural life. A Christian gets this at baptism. Actual grace, by contrast, is a supernatural push or encouragement. It’s transient. It doesn’t’t live in the soul, but acts on the soul from the outside, so to speak. It’s a supernatural kick in the pants. It gets the will and intellect moving so we can seek out and keep sanctifying grace. I think of it as universal “repentant grace” that beckons us all toward Christ. This was the grace that was released on all of Creation when Christ died for us. But sanctifying grace is withheld until one accepts it - through baptism (either by water, by desire or by blood). God may also have other means of granting sanctifying grace to unborn infants that we have no specific teaching of but trust to His Mercy - since God is not bound to The Sacraments.
Exodus 33:19 “I will be merciful to whom it shall please me.”
More here on grace: Grace: What It Is and What It Does.
So lacking your definition I can’t compare and contrast what you have said to what The Church teaches. But the more important thing here is I think you may be inventing “excuses” just to make your neo-Christian theology work. That is, you seem to think a person has no grace until they are 'really, really, really, gosh-golly “saved” '. In your system it appears you believe if a baptised person backslides into sin at some point later that is a sign their baptism never took or that they were never really Christian (which would mean Peter was never saved since He denied Christ 3 times after choosing to accept Him as “Lord” - but later repented again). In other words it sounds like you believe in “Once Saved Always Saved” (aka OSAS). Do you? If you do - run from this. It is snake oil, a heresy, and what pseudo-Christians use to justify sinning without confessing their sins.
Catholics accept that Christians as humans are imperfect and until they are fully perfected in Christ most will fall back into sin from time to time as they learn to walk with Christ and get blindsided by trials and succumb to temptations. Venial sins, that is small sins (e.g. like wasting one’s time in pointless debates etc.) happen 100’s of time a day since we are not perfect. This is what sacramental confession is all about. This imperfection human nature is exactly why Christ gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins in His name and why the apostolic Church forgives sins and why the early Church publicly confessed sins to the Church (so the apostolic priests could forgive them of their sins – often by touching their heads and telling them verbally “your sins are forgiven” through their authority in Christ’s name). Only grave or mortal sins are sins that can rupture the soul and cause one to lose sanctifying grace. Venial sins progressively build up and compel and corrupt us toward grave sin. We must confess ALL mortal sins to heal our souls and regain our sanctifying grace and it is beneficial to also confess the venial sins (but these can be forgiven by simple prayer and contrition).
So, a Christian who is not a “perfect Christian” can still be in and out of sanctifying grace as long as he sincerely uses the sacrament of confession and forms the proper interior state contrition through penance to prepare himself for God’s restorative sanctification of grace. Of course some will try to presume upon God’s Mercy and not form a sincere confession with an intent to avoid sin and these will not have been forgiven since ‘God is not mocked’ by insincerity. A proper confession of mortal sins first requires repentance and the sincere sorrow for offending God and one must rather die than offend God in this away again.
Of course Baptism immediately infuses sanctifying grace into one’s soul while wiping out all original and personal sin and starts the transformation process. But it is those grave sins committed after baptism that require sacramental confession/penance.
James
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SemperReformada
Guest
Church Militant,I’m glad you asked that SR.
Stop and consider for a second, doesn’t it plainly infer that anyone who doesn’t persevere will have their name blotted out?
I mean if ones name has to be in that book of life to be saved, and this verse clearly teaches that some names will be blotted out, then where does that leave OSAS/Eternal Security believers?
Answer: In error, that’s where.
I don’t think it infers that one may have his name blotted out. I haven’t done a search so I am only going from memory but I don’t recall any scripture saying a name could be blotted out of the book of life. Maybe someone can share such a verse if there is one but right now I don’t remember one that indicates your name can be written in the book of life, blotted out, re-written, blotted out, re-written, etc.
Anyway, based soley on the verse you provided we see only that Jesus won’t blot a name out…that’s it. If you persevere, Jesus won’t blot your name out of the book. If you don’t persevere maybe your name wasn’t in the book to begin with?
There are plenty of other verses one could use that wold make a much stronger case against “OSAS” but I don’t see the one you provided in the same light that you do.
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Seeking12
Guest
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Seeking12
Guest
**
I gave an example or comparison as to what is meant by common grace versus saving grace; their is not explicit use of the term in the Bible; but I’m sure if you apply some logic you will come up with the understanding. The post should be near this one.**
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