SPLIT: Pope Francis against lay readers/EMHC

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Is the Pope being against altar servers etc. an infallible thing?

If not its just his opinion, which can be prone to error if Im not mistaken.

So whats the big deal?

Also, like Sirach2 mentioned earlier, how do we know the servers and people who help dont help outside of the mass? I know Ive seen quite a few of them doing so.
 
Thorns said:
Is the Pope being against altar servers etc. an infallible thing?

If not its just his opinion, which can be prone to error if Im not mistaken.
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Not at all, Thorns. If you read it again, he is against exercising these ministries in a prideful manner and one that excludes external ministry outside the walls of the church in the circle of one’s world. He is not intending to abolish these lawful ministries.
Pope Francis:
The layperson is a layperson and has to live as a layperson with the power of baptism, which enables him to be a leaven of the love of God in society itself, to create and sow hope, to proclaim the faith, not [only] from a pulpit but [also] from his everyday life.
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Sirach2 said:
Whoa there, P.P. You make some pretty tall leaps as you reinterpret what is being said there. [As you have done within this thread, also]

The article refers primarily to [disgruntled] traditionalists who prefer the EF liturgy, and are adamant against certain lawful practices within the OF, such as you are opposing in your first post. UE 19 states:
  1. The faithful who ask for the celebration of the forma extraordinaria must not in any way support or belong to groups which show themselves to be against the validity or legitimacy of the Holy Mass or the Sacraments celebrated in the forma ordinaria or against the Roman Pontiff as Supreme Pastor of the Universal Church.
Father Z’s response:
By this response, the PCED is clarifying that those who want the older form of Mass do NOT have to admit that practices such as Communion in the hand, or altar girls, or EMHCs, etc., are good.

Again, you are free to quietly hold your personal opinion, But nowhere did Father state that one may publicly debate, as an acceptable practice, these lawful permissions granted by the Church. In fact, forum rules debar such a practice.

This applies also here in L&S. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=762798
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Sirach, you seem awfully eager to shout down what the Holy Father said. You claim we cannot even discuss things such as lectors or EMHCs because the Church has spoken on these topics. Yet the Church herself doesn’t take this attitude (which is what the PCED was saying). We are bound to acknowledge:
  1. The OF and EF are equally valid
  2. The Church has the authority to allow EMHCs, etc
We are not required to either:
  1. Not speak about such topics, in public or private
  2. Have either a positive or a negative opinion of such practices
If you don’t want to be involved in the conversation, excuse yourself. Don’t try to shout the rest of us, including Pope Francis, down.
 
Sirach2 said:
Not at all, Thorns. If you read it again, he is against exercising these ministries in a prideful manner and one that excludes external ministry outside the walls of the church in the circle of one’s world. He is not intending to abolish these lawful ministries.
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You’ve yet to substantiate this claim. Repeating it over and over again doesn’t count. I’ll ask again - Do you have a source for the claim that Pope Francis likes clericalzied laity as long as they are not prideful?

The quote you posted only supports your case by the addition of the words in parenthesis. What is the further context that warrants such addition? Minus the added words, Francis is refuting your position and reinforcing what he says in the original quote I posted at the top of this thread -

"The layperson is a layperson and has to live as a layperson with the power of baptism, which enables him to be a leaven of the love of God in society itself, to create and sow hope, to proclaim the faith,* not from a pulpit but from his everyday life**."*

Please provide a source for your claim and your quote.
 
PietroPaolo said:
Please provide a source for your claim and your quote.
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As is often done in the media, Pope Francis’ words are taken out of context to his intended meaning. I have yet to see a statement from you or the Pope, for that matter, that indicates he is **against **any or all of those ministries, rather than the over-clericalization of them. Where is YOUR source, my man??
 
PietroPaulo:
Sirach, you seem awfully eager to shout down what the Holy Father said.
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Hardly. I am only eager not to read into his words that he is against these ministries, which you are rather eager to implant in the reader’s mind. There is absolutely no evidence of that in his writings.
You claim we cannot even discuss things such as lectors or EMHCs because the Church has spoken on these topics. Yet the Church herself doesn’t take this attitude (which is what the PCED was saying). We are bound to acknowledge:
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As is often the case, folks run to Fr. Z’s opinion as if he himself were pope, but he did not state, whatsoever, that trads are free to publicly oppose/dismiss lawful permissions granted by the Church.* Discuss*, yes. Shoot them down because trads personally disapprove of them? No. It is not even permitted *here *to deprecate them, as I provided for you in the links from our moderators. What you can state, is this:
  • I personally do not agree with having EMHC’s
  • I personally see no value in altar servers
  • Ministry of Lectors belongs to the priestly ministry only, in my humble opinion
As opposed to implications in statements such as:
  • The Church needs to abolish all ministries with which I disagree, because I know better than the Magisterium.
 
I agreed with PietroPaolo’s interpretation of Pope Francis’ words until I read them in context. In context, as everyone else has noted, it’s as clear as day that the pope did not intend to say anything negative about lay ministries. His entire focus was a criticism of clericalism, of the laity and the clergy. So no, there is absolutely no reason to believe the pope disapproves of altar girls and EMHCs. Maybe he does, though I highly doubt it. What we’re sure of is that he hasn’t said anything to make us think he disapproves.

PietroPaolo seems to now want proof of the negative, i.e., that the pope doesn’t disapprove of them. Likewise, I would like proof that the pope doesn’t believe the Malaysian airplane was taken by aliens.

PietroPaolo and Sirach2 seem to be talking past each other. It doesn’t seem like PietroPaolo is questioning the legality of lay ministries. He just doesn’t like them which is a perfectly permissible position to hold.
 
Sirach2 said:
As is often done in the media, Pope Francis’ words are taken out of context to his intended meaning. I have yet to see a statement from you or the Pope, for that matter, that indicates he is **against **any or all of those ministries, rather than the over-clericalization of them. Where is YOUR source, my man??
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I’ll try one last time -

The quote I posted at the top of this thread NEVER mentions “over-clericalization” as if there was some level of clericalization Francis is a fan of. He simply blasts all “clericalization” of the laity, then goes on to mention serving at the altar.

This isn’t a case of media misrepresentation. It simply is the words of Francis.

You continue to try to draw a distinction between “good-clericalization” and “bad-clericalization”. Can you provide any source, ANY source, in which Francis makes this distinction?
 
Sirach2 said:
Hardly. I am only eager not to read into his words that he is against these ministries, which you are rather eager to implant in the reader’s mind. There is absolutely no evidence of that in his writings.

As is often the case, folks run to Fr. Z’s opinion as if he himself were pope, but he did not state, whatsoever, that trads are free to publicly oppose/dismiss lawful permissions granted by the Church.* Discuss*, yes. Shoot them down because trads personally disapprove of them? No. It is not even permitted *here *to deprecate them, as I provided for you in the links from our moderators. What you can state, is this:
  • I personally do not agree with having EMHC’s
  • I personally see no value in altar servers
  • Ministry of Lectors belongs to the priestly ministry only, in my humble opinion
As opposed to implications in statements such as:
  • The Church needs to abolish all ministries with which I disagree, because I know better than the Magisterium.
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I suppose you know the meaning of the term “straw man”.
 
johnmann said:
PietroPaolo and Sirach2 seem to be talking past each other. It doesn’t seem like PietroPaolo is questioning the legality of lay ministries. He just doesn’t like them which is a perfectly permissible position to hold.
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I’m not questioning their validity (which is forbidden by the Church). I’m not even saying I don’t like them (which I admittedly don’t). I’m simply pointing out that Francis is calling for a laity that is engaged with the world and has spoken against the mentality of “clericalizing the laity.” This clericalization is exemplified by lay people wanting to serve at the altar, according to Francis, not according to PietroPaolo.

Does Francis want to ban these ministries? That’s doubtful as he hasn’t done so. Does he want to see lay people “serve at the altar”? Obviously not. Francis wants us to be in the world, at the margins, drawing people into the Church. He doesn’t want good lay people to become deacons. He doesn’t want women to be clericalized. And he doesn’t want the laity in general to be clericalzied.
johnmann said:
PietroPaolo seems to now want proof of the negative, i.e., that the pope doesn’t disapprove of them. Likewise, I would like proof that the pope doesn’t believe the Malaysian airplane was taken by aliens.
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Sirach has suggested that Francis makes a distinction between those members of the laity that serve at the altar in a prideful way and those who don’t. I’ve yet to see any evidence for this claim. Far from asking for evidence of a negative - I’m asking for something to substantiate a positive claim - that Pope Francis believes x.
 
PietroPaolo said:
Does he want to see lay people “serve at the altar”? Obviously not.
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I rest my case. Prove it. If you cannot, and I don’t believe you can impute that meaning to his words, then back out, please.

Frankly, I’m finished discussing this with you.
 
PietroPaolo said:
As Pope Francis has pointed out the task of the laity isn’t to read or distribute communion at Mass (those roles can easily be accomplished by the ordained). We are called to the much more difficult (and uncomfortable) task of evangelizing the secular world around us, indeed we are called to sanctify the world around us. I’d recommend leaving the lectoring for others and devote that time instead to the New Evangelization.

*“We priests tend to clericalize the laity. We do not realize it, but it is as if we infect them with our own disease. And the laity — not all, but many — ask us on their knees to clericalize them, because it is more comfortable to be an altar server than the protagonist of a lay path. We cannot fall into that trap — it is a sinful complicity.” *-- Pope Francis
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This IS NOT what the holy father was saying. The documents of the Second Vatican called for more of a role in the church including the liturgy. If any thing he is calling for a greater involvement of the laity and to have priest and bishops encourage and praise the work that is being done.
Just because it can be seen in your comment that you like the laity doing these very important roles in the liturgy, DON’T twist the holy father’s words for your person cause.
Dcn. Frank
 
FAB said:
This IS NOT what the holy father was saying. The documents of the Second Vatican called for more of a role in the church including the liturgy. If any thing he is calling for a greater involvement of the laity and to have priest and bishops encourage and praise the work that is being done.
Just because it can be seen in your comment that you like the laity doing these very important roles in the liturgy, DON’T twist the holy father’s words for your person cause.
Dcn. Frank
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This is off topic, but the Second Vatican Council did not call for EMHC’s or lay lectors. It called or greater participation of the laity, but to suggest that this participation can be equated with liturgical roles implies that the lector at Mass is participating more than the rest of the laity, which is absurd. If anyone is twisting the Holy Father’s clear words, it is you, Deacon. You take a comment on not clericalizing the laity and insist that what Francis really wants is… greater clerical roles for the laity 🤷
 
Sirach2 said:
I rest my case. Prove it. If you cannot, and I don’t believe you can impute that meaning to his words, then back out, please.

Frankly, I’m finished discussing this with you.
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Frankly, you never discussed this with me. You simply insisted upon a distinction between “good clericalization” and “bad clericalization” which Francis has never made. Constantly reiterating the same claim without backing it up with anything, except a doctored quote with no source, isn’t discussing something.
 
Sirach2 said:
I rest my case. Prove it. If you cannot, and I don’t believe you can impute that meaning to his words, then back out, please.
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“the laity — not all, but many — ask us on their knees to clericalize them, because it is more comfortable to be an altar server than the protagonist of a lay path. We cannot fall into that trap”

PROVED.
 
PietroPaolo said:
“the laity — not all, but many — ask us on their knees to clericalize them, because it is more comfortable to be an altar server than the protagonist of a lay path. We cannot fall into that trap”

PROVED.
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In your dreams…:rolleyes:

He is simply saying that the trap of asking on one’s knees for clericalization is to be avoided — NOT the ministry itself. NOT by any stretch of the imagination.
UNPROVED.

P.P., past practice with threads where you and I have posted, tells me it is a fruitless venture to continue, for you will persistently bait and fling a trump, whether or not it happens to be true, just for the sake of winning an argument. THAT is NOT debate, it is triumphalism.

I will no longer visit this thread for more of the same. Good day.
 
Sirach2 said:
In your dreams…:rolleyes:

He is simply saying that the trap of asking on one’s knees for clericalization is to be avoided — NOT the ministry itself.
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You’ve said this many times, but have yet to produce any source where the Holy Father himself makes any such distinction.

Pax Christi, Sirach.
 
“We priests tend to clericalize the laity. We do not realize it, but it is as if we infect them with our own disease. And the laity — not all, but many — ask us on their knees to clericalize them, because it is more comfortable to be an altar server than the protagonist of a lay path. We cannot fall into that trap — it is a sinful complicity.” – Pope Francis

To those who want to claim Francis really means “let’s have more lay people serving at the altar” by the above statement - how about you produce some evidence that Pope Francis actually thinks this? A quote from the Holy Father would do (backed up by a source). Don’t just continually say that he meant the exact opposite of his clear words - prove it. As Cuba Gooding Jr would say, and I might be dating myself, “show me the money!”

If you can’t, then at least do as Sirach did and bow politely out of the conversation.

Pax Christi.
 
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