SPLIT: Pope Francis against lay readers/EMHC

[agnes_therese]

The Holy Father has spoken quite often against clericalization of the laity. I would suggest finding all his quotes on the subject and then taking them in context.

Yes. In context.

 

[ccmcmg]

As Pope Francis has pointed out the task of the laity isn’t to read or distribute communion at Mass (those roles can easily be accomplished by the ordained). We are called to the much more difficult (and uncomfortable) task of evangelizing the secular world around us, indeed we are called to sanctify the world around us. I’d recommend leaving the lectoring for others and devote that time instead to the New Evangelization.

*“We priests tend to clericalize the laity. We do not realize it, but it is as if we infect them with our own disease. And the laity — not all, but many — ask us on their knees to clericalize them, because it is more comfortable to be an altar server than the protagonist of a lay path. We cannot fall into that trap — it is a sinful complicity.” *-- Pope Francis

Some of us do both (lectoring and evangelizing). I do. I’m not saying that to be prideful, but to say that don’t judge what others are doing. If we are doing our jobs as either lectors or evangelists, it will lead others to do those things as well, or, perhaps, even show them the path to God and to the Church.

EDIT:
Upon further review, I see this is another ‘shot’ at the tired EF vs NO/OF Mass in disguise. So noted. I should read the whole thread before attempting to make a comment.

 

[JM3]

“We priests tend to clericalize the laity. We do not realize it, but it is as if we infect them with our own disease. And the laity — not all, but many — ask us on their knees to clericalize them, because it is more comfortable to be an altar server than the protagonist of a lay path. We cannot fall into that trap — it is a sinful complicity.” – Pope Francis

Your quote is from

a 2011 interview with an Argentinian Catholic news agency

and he became Pope when?

vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/speeches/2014/march/documents/papa-francesco_20140322_associazione-corallo_en.html

You spoke about clericalism. It is one of the evils, one of the evils of the Church. But it is a “complicit” evil, because priests take pleasure in the temptation to clericalize the laity, but many of the laity are on their knees asking to be clericalized, because it is more comfortable, it is more comfortable! This is a double sin! We must overcome this temptation. The layperson must be lay, one who is baptized, with the power that comes from his baptism. A servant, but with his lay vocation, and one does not sell this, one does not bargain with it, one should not be complicit with another person… No. I am this way! Because that is my identity. I have heard this so many times in my homeland: “In my parish, you know, I have an excellent layman: he is a good organizer… Your Eminence, why don’t we make him a deacon?”. The priest’s suggestion is immediately to clericalize. Let’s make this layman… Why? Why is the deacon or priest more important than the layman? No! This is the mistake! Is he a good layman? Then let him continue and grow as such. Why treat his Christian identity lightly. In my opinion, clericalism impedes the layman’s growth. But keep in mind what I said: the two parties are accomplices in the temptation. For there would be no clericalism if there weren’t laymen who wanted to be clericalized. Is this clear?

vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium_en.html

1. Lay people are, put simply, the vast majority of the people of God. The minority – ordained ministers – are at their service. There has been a growing awareness of the identity and mission of the laity in the Church. We can count on many lay persons, although still not nearly enough, who have a deeply-rooted sense of community and great fidelity to the tasks of charity, catechesis and the celebration of the faith. At the same time, a clear awareness of this responsibility of the laity, grounded in their baptism and confirmation, does not appear in the same way in all places. In some cases, it is because lay persons have not been given the formation needed to take on important responsibilities. In others, it is because in their particular Churches room has not been made for them to speak and to act, due to an excessive clericalism which keeps them away from decision-making. Even if many are now involved in the lay ministries, this involvement is not reflected in a greater penetration of Christian values in the social, political and economic sectors. It often remains tied to tasks within the Church, without a real commitment to applying the Gospel to the transformation of society. The formation of the laity and the evangelization of professional and intellectual life represent a significant pastoral challenge.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html

1. The Ministries of the Lay Christian Faithful in the Celebration of Holy Mass

[43.] For the good of the community and of the whole Church of God, some of the lay faithful according to tradition have rightly and laudably exercised ministries in the celebration of the Sacred Liturgy.[109] It is appropriate that a number of persons distribute among themselves and exercise various ministries or different parts of the same ministry.[110]

[44.] Apart from the duly instituted ministries of acolyte and lector,[111] the most important of these ministries are those of acolyte[112] and lector[113] by temporary deputation. In addition to these are the other functions that are described in the Roman Missal,[114] as well as the functions of preparing the hosts, washing the liturgical linens, and the like. All, “whether ordained ministers or lay faithful, in exercising their own office or ministry should do exclusively and fully that which pertains to them”.[115] In the liturgical celebration itself as well as in its preparation, they should do what is necessary so that the Church’s Liturgy will be carried out worthily and appropriately.

[45.] **To be avoided is the danger of obscuring the complementary relationship between the action of clerics and that of laypersons, in such a way that the ministry of laypersons undergoes what might be called a certain “clericalization”, while the sacred ministers inappropriately assume those things that are proper to the life and activity of the lay faithful.**116]

From your linked article;

Clericalism ails the clergy when they become too self-referential rather than missionary. But it afflicts laypeople worse, when they begin to believe that the fundamental service God is asking of them is to become greeters, lectors or extraordinary ministers of holy Communion at Church rather than to live and spread the faith in their families, workplaces, schools, neighborhoods and beyond.

You’re either misinterpretating what this priest wrote or trying to push an agenda. I’m not sure which.

 

[esieffe]

I don’t believe he is against lay readers or EMHCs, but anything is possible. He certainly is against the clericalism demonstrated by some lay persons and clerics.

If your supposition were true - that distribution of communion and proclamation of the scriptures could be easily accomplished by the ordained - the practice of using lay ministers to perform these acts would never have taken off.

My parish church holds just shy of 900 people. We have a vigil Mass on Saturday that runs around 80% capacity. We have 4 Masses on Sunday morning that run from 75%-100% capacity and another Mass Sunday evening that runs about 70% capacity. Then we have at least two more Masses in Spanish (I have no idea how well attended they are since I don’t go to those but the parking lot is full). We are not even close to being the largest parish in my diocese.

We have over,14,000 members. I don’t see any way the ordained only could serve communion.

 

[ProVobis]

EDIT:
Upon further review, I see this is another ‘shot’ at the tired EF vs NO/OF Mass in disguise. So noted. I should read the whole thread before attempting to make a comment.

I’ve seen 8-10 altar servers,sometimes more, including thurifers, master of ceremonies, acolytes, etc. at the EF. The Pope isn’t singling out the OF, if that’s what he’s doing here IMO.

 

[pnewton]

Let’s see, there are two serious errors. First, he was not Pope in 2011 when he made the statement quoted. Second, he did not mention either lay readers or EMHC, which is good, because to take his meaning as not wanting to serve around the altar, that would mean he was saying that a priest serving the altar was a disease, which doesn’t make a lot of sense. I would say that what we have here is random snippets taken over years and glued together as support against a practice one already does not like.

I am not going to support my ability to understand English, by the way. The quote is there. Diagram it. Take the actual words used and do not insert words.

But no, altar servers (the actual role mentioned, not EMHC or readers) are not usually clerics.

 

[ccmcmg]

I’ve seen 8-10 altar servers,sometimes more, including thurifers, master of ceremonies, acolytes, etc. at the EF. The Pope isn’t singling out the OF, if that’s what he’s doing here IMO.

Oh I wasn’t referring to the Pope. I was referring to some of the comments/responses in this thread.

 

[ProVobis]

Oh I wasn’t referring to the Pope. I was referring to some of the comments/responses in this thread.

Maybe. Somewhat different than the comments posted under that article. Of course, that was a year ago.

 

[otjm]

This is absurd. The Church managed to distribute communion without the help of the laity for centuries. If people were at the communion rail, kneeling, instead of standing in a line, you’d be surprised how quickly very many can receive very quickly. Besides, should speed really be a determining factor on how people receive the Lord of Lords?

It is obvious that you do not like the laity involved in any part of the Mass except as sitting in pews.

It is also obvious that you are grasping at anything that supports your likes and dislikes.

Communion standing is a slower process than kneeling and having the priest walk down the row placing the Eucharist onto tongues. It baffles me why, if we are worshiping God, that speed is essential in the distribution of Communion.

 

[agnes_therese]

You’re either misinterpretating what this priest wrote or trying to push an agenda. I’m not sure which.

There’s been a lot of talk/complaining about the way Pope Francis’ words are sometimes (deliberately?) misinterpreted by those who want to see him as “liberalizing” the Church. It’s not really surprising (although somewhat disappointing) to see the same done from the other direction, as PietroPaolo is doing with this interview.

 

[smichhertz]

Hi all,

Joining the thread late, I know, my apologies!

Let’s see, there are two serious errors. First, he was not Pope in 2011 when he made the statement quoted. Second, he did not mention either lay readers or EMHC, which is good, because to take his meaning as not wanting to serve around the altar, that would mean he was saying that a priest serving the altar was a disease, which doesn’t make a lot of sense. I would say that what we have here is random snippets taken over years and glued together as support against a practice one already does not like.

I am not going to support my ability to understand English, by the way. The quote is there. Diagram it. Take the actual words used and do not insert words.

But no, altar servers (the actual role mentioned, not EMHC or readers) are not usually clerics.

^ This post is an excellent point. The quote is dead accurate but should be taken in context.

This quote is not calling for the removal of EHMCs, lectors, cantors, altar servers, etc. Rather it’s saying that they should not be viewed as clerical or even remotely in the same essence. Rather, these lay positions should be served with a reverent spirit of humility and a recognition that it is a gift.

I have a friend who is a priest. He told me a story once when he was a deacon that he had to battle with the EHMCs at the church he was at to explain that there would be one less needed at mass because he would distribute Communion. That’s an example of what this quote is denouncing. Clearly, those particular EHMCs did not have the proper spirit for their role in mass.

Hopefully, that helps to illustrate the point I’m trying to make!

 

[ProVobis]

We have over,14,000 members. I don’t see any way the ordained only could serve communion.

Depends on how many priests, deacons, and Masses you have. As well as the composition of the congregation. A huge percentage of Hispanic or Polish members, for example, do not receive. I’ve been at solemn High EF Masses in a bilingual crowd of 900 where two priests and two deacons did just fine.

It baffles me why, if we are worshiping God, that speed is essential in the distribution of Communion.

Precisely.

 

[marywarfield]

Oh for heavens sakes! This thread has gone on for days
while the EMHC and lectors and what not defend
their holy activities. Dont you see that is EXACTLY what
the Pope is addressing? This isn’t about you and your
precious positions- its about everyone including the
priests going out the door and bringing back new people.
Very simple.

 

[ProVobis]

Oh for heavens sakes! This thread has gone on for days
while the EMHC and lectors and what not defend
their holy activities. Dont you see that is EXACTLY what
the Pope is addressing? This isn’t about you and your
precious positions- its about everyone including the
priests going out the door and bringing back new people.
Very simple.

But then comes the philosophical question: is it necessary to bring new people inside the walls of the Church in order to convert them?

 

[johnmann]

PietroPaolo, I think that you should humbly consider why everyone here disagrees with your interpretation of the pope’s words.

Pope Francis also railed against the clericalism of the clergy. Using your logic, Pope Francis is against the clergy.

Also you conveniently omitted the fact that Pope Francis didn’t mention lay readers or EMHCs, but altar servers. It’s really you’re belief that Pope Francis is against the use of altar servers?

 

[FAB]

This is off topic, but the Second Vatican Council did not call for EMHC’s or lay lectors. It called or greater participation of the laity, but to suggest that this participation can be equated with liturgical roles implies that the lector at Mass is participating more than the rest of the laity, which is absurd. If anyone is twisting the Holy Father’s clear words, it is you, Deacon. You take a comment on not clericalizing the laity and insist that what Francis really wants is… greater clerical roles for the laity

Actually it is very much on topic. The OP is celebrating the words of the Holy Father as though it is a sign that EMHC and Readers will come to an end which is not going to happen.
Yes these positions represent a greater role for the laity in the life of the church as well as many other places. EMHC all perform an important role of taking the Eucharist to the sick and home bound as well.
In the GIRM for the liturgy, it specifically indicates that the proclamation of the 1st reading, psalm and 2nd reading is a role of the laity and should not proclaimed by the clergy except if there are no other options.
By the way I was not calling for more “clerical” roles of the laity, just that there needs to be more involvement across the board for the laity.
The harvest is plentiful and the laborers are few.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

This is absurd. The Church managed to distribute communion without the help of the laity for centuries. If people were at the communion rail, kneeling, instead of standing in a line, you’d be surprised how quickly very many can receive very quickly. Besides, should speed really be a determining factor on how people receive the Lord of Lords?

Do you mean all those centuries when the laity received Communion once a year, if that?

 

[ProVobis]

Do you mean all those centuries when the laity received Communion once a year, if that?

In some communities, like the Hispanic and Polish, you’ll still find that.