Split: Prot/Cath stance on Mary : Church Authority

[believers]

In your interpretation it doesn’t. There are links on the homepage of Catholic Answers that discuss this however much more clearly than I can. (I don’t know how to post links)

And Mary is my mother. (Catholics hold Mary to be our mother, in case you didn’t know that).

God Bless.

I don’t think you’re following me. It’s not a matter of interpretation. Your explanation does not exist in the Bible. In other words, there are no chapters or verse associated with your claim about saints, mary, praying 24/7 for you to God.

 

[Rawb]

The easy answer is because The Church says so (which, whether or not The Church is your authority, it is mine, so that’s good enough for me). The longer answer is because John, representing all Christians at the foot of the cross, is told “Son behold your mother”. Since John was representing all Christians I’m delighted to inform you that Mary is your mother as well!

 

[Rawb]

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4).

That’s all quoted from the Catholic Answers homepage. You can get to it by clicking on the ::Home:: link at the top of the page and on the side (left) is a series of links “Church and Papacy” “Mary and Saint” etc. Those have a bunch of interesting articles. How I learned about Catholicism, now I’m converting!

God Bless!

 

[Eden]

I don’t think you’re following me. It’s not a matter of interpretation. Your explanation does not exist in the Bible. In other words, there are no chapters or verse associated with your claim about saints, mary, praying 24/7 for you to God.

By what authority do you feel you that you are speaking for God when you challenge the Church teaching on saints, Mary and asking for their prayers?

 

[believers]

By what authority do you feel you that you are speaking for God when you challenge the Church teaching on saints, Mary and asking for their prayers?

By the Word of God.

 

[Rawb]

1 Timothy 3:14-15

“(14)I am writing these things to you now, even though I hope to be with you soon (15) so that if I don’t come for a while you will know what kind of men you shoul dchoose as officers for the church of the Living God, which contains and holds high the truth of God.”

So the Bible says the *Church *contains and holds high the truth of God…

From a protestant Bible by the way (at my parent’s house and left my Bible back home.)

 

[believers]

1 Timothy 3:14-15

“(14)I am writing these things to you now, even though I hope to be with you soon (15) so that if I don’t come for a while you will know what kind of men you shoul dchoose as officers for the church of the Living God, which contains and holds high the truth of God.”

So the Bible says the *Church *contains and holds high the truth of God…

From a protestant Bible by the way (at my parent’s house and left my Bible back home.)

That’s if you assume that the Roman Catholic Church is the true Church. I don’t believe it is.

 

[Rawb]

Well I’d be interested in knowing which church is then. Unfortunatly that would be hijacking a thread and my younger sister wants to use the computer now. It’s late too I aught to get to bed. So good night, good dreams (if it’s night where you are as well), and God Bless believers.

 

[believers]

Well I’d be interested in knowing which church is then. Unfortunatly that would be hijacking a thread and my younger sister wants to use the computer now. It’s late too I aught to get to bed. So good night, good dreams (if it’s night where you are as well), and God Bless believers.

Sure, we’ll do this again some time. I would love to discuss the Word of God with you. God Bless you too!

 

[Eden]

By the Word of God.

And who gave you the authority to interpret the Word of God? The Bible lays out a clear plan for those who have authority to teach, with the laying on of hands by successors to the apostles. Are you saying you have received apostolic succession?

 

[Eden]

ON AUTHORITY

Ordained Leaders Share in Jesus’ Ministry and Authority.

Luke 22:29 - the Father gives the kingdom to the Son, and the Son gives the kingdom to the apostles. The gift is transferred from the Father to the Son to the apostles.

John 5:30 - similarly, Jesus as man does nothing of His own authority, but He acts under the authority of the Father.

John 7:16-17 - Jesus as man states that His authority is not His own, but from God. He will transfer this authority to other men.

John 8:28 - Jesus says He does nothing on His own authority. Similarly, the apostles will do nothing on their own authority. Their authority comes from God.

John 17:18; 20:21 - as the Father sends the Son, the Son sends the apostles. The apostles have divinely appointed authority.

Acts 20:28 - the apostles are shepherds and guardians appointed by the Holy Spirit / 1 Peter 2:25 - Jesus is the Shepherd and Guardian. The apostles, by the power of the Spirit, share Christ’s ministry and authority.

Jer. 23:1-8; Ezek. 34:1-10 - the shepherds must shepherd the sheep, or they will be held accountable by God.

Eph. 2:20 - the Christian faith is built upon the foundation of the apostles. The word “foundation” proves that it does not die with apostles, but carries on through succession.
Eph. 2:20; Rev. 21:9,14 - the words “household,” “Bride of the Lamb,” the “new Jerusalem” are all metaphors for the Church whose foundation is the apostles.

scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html

These are clear examples of authority and the transfer of authority as illustrated in the Word of God. Authority is not transferred by self-proclamation in the Bible.

 

[Eden]

Authority is Transferred by the Sacrament of Ordination

Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ’s own authority.

Acts 1:20 - a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his “bishopric”) is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, “I’ll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own.”

Acts 1:22 - literally, “one must be ordained” to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ’s authority.

Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.

Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.

Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.

Acts 14:23 - the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.

Acts 15:22-27 - preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.

2 Cor. 1:21-22 - Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.

Col 1:25 - Paul calls his position a divine “office.” An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it’s not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.

1 Tim. 3:1 - Paul uses the word “episcopoi” (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul’s use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.

1 Tim. 4:14 - again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).

1 Tim. 5:22 - Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.

2 Tim. 1:6 - Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.

2 Tim. 4:1-6 - at end of Paul’s life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop.

2 Tim. 2:2 - this verse shows God’s intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.

Titus 1:5; Luke 10:1 - the elders of the Church are appointed and hold authority. God has His children participate in Christ’s work.

1 John 4:6 - whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error (not just by reading the Bible and interpreting it for ourselves).

www.scripturecatholic.com

Authority is transferred by the laying on of hands by the successors of the apostles. Authority is never transferred from God directly to an individual through private revelation. To make this claim is to contradict the Word of God.

 

[believers]

And who gave you the authority to interpret the Word of God? The Bible lays out a clear plan for those who have authority to teach, with the laying on of hands by successors to the apostles. Are you saying you have received apostolic succession?

2Ti 2:15
“Study [the Word] to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

Rom 1:16 ¶
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Rom 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

 

[Eden]

2Ti 2:15
“Study [the Word] to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

Your quote does not address the situation at hand. You claim to speak for God, but you have not received apostolic succession. To make the claim that one is given authority through private revelation (what’s more, revelations in contradiction to the teachings of the successors of the apostles, the bishops of the Catholic Church) is the definition of false prophets which the Word of God warns us about. Your explanation of how you have authority does not fit the established framework of authority described in the Word of God.

 

[Eden]

Further, you are contradicting the authority of Jesus Himself, who wants us to obey apostolic authority.

From the Word of God:

Acts 5:13 - the people acknowledged the apostles’ special authority and did not dare take it upon themselves.

Acts 15:6,24; 16:4 - the teaching authority is granted to the apostles and their successors. This teaching authority must be traced to the original apostles, or the authority is not sanctioned by Christ.

Rom. 15:16 – Paul says he is a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable. This refers to the ministerial priesthood of the ordained which is distinguishable from the universal priesthood of the laity. Notice the Gentiles are the “sacrifice” and Paul does the “offering.”

1 Cor. 5:3-5; 16:22; 1 Tim. 1:20; Gal 1:8; Matt 18:17 – these verses show the authority of the elders to excommunicate / anathemize (“deliver to satan”).

2 Cor. 2:17 - Paul says the elders are not just random peddlers of God’s word. They are actually commissioned by God. It is not self-appointed authority.

2 Cor. 3:6 – Paul says that certain men have been qualified by God to be ministers of a New Covenant. This refers to the ministerial priesthood of Christ handed down the ages through sacramental ordination.

2 Cor. 10:8 - Paul acknowledges his authority over God’s people which the Lord gave to build up the Church.

1 Thess. 5:12-13 - Paul charges the members of the Church to respect those who have authority over them.

2 Thess. 3:14 - Paul says if a person does not obey what he has provided in his letter, have nothing to do with him.

1 Tim. 5:17 - Paul charges the members of the Church to honor the appointed elders (“priests”) of the Church.

Titus 2:15 - Paul charges Timothy to exhort and reprove with all authority, which he received by the laying on of hands.

Heb. 12:9 – in the context of spiritual discipline, the author says we have had earthly fathers (referring to the ordained leaders) to discipline us and we respected them.

Heb. 13:7,17 - Paul charges the members of the Church to remember and **obey their leaders who have authority over their souls. **

2 Peter 2:10 - Peter warns the faithful about despising authority. He is referring to the apostolic authority granted to them by Christ.

3 John 9 - John points out that Diotrephes does not acknowledge John’s apostolic authority and declares that this is evil.

Deut. 17:10-13 - the Lord commands His faithful Israel to obey the priests that He puts in charge, and do to all that they direct and instruct. The Lord warns that those who do not obey His priests shall die.

www.scripturecatholic.com

I see nothing in the Word of God to support your claim that one receives authority from God through private revelation or self-appointment.

 

[believers]

Your quote does not address the situation at hand. You claim to speak for God, but you have not received apostolic succession. To make the claim that one is given authority through private revelation (what’s more, revelations in contradiction to the teachings of the successors of the apostles, the bishops of the Catholic Church) is the definition of false prophets which the Word of God warns us about. Your explanation of how you have authority does not fit the established framework of authority described in the Word of God.

Can you prove that your church has the authority to begin with?

 

[Eden]

Before I get into proving the authority of the Church, I’m going to get to the kicker: FALSE PROPHETS!

Peter… says, “I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles” (2 Pet. 3:2). This supports his earlier words in 1 Peter 1:10–12, where he said the message first given by the prophets “has now been told . . . by those who have preached the gospel by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven”—i.e., the apostles.

The whole point of the second epistle of Peter is to stress the divine teaching authority of the apostles. Second Peter is a long argument against false teachers, whom Peter compares to false prophets (2 Pet. 2:1). **In the Old Testament it is only false prophets who prophesy what their own minds prompt them to say (Jer. 23:15, Ezek. 13:3). The genuine prophet only speaks from the Lord (Jer. 1:4–10). The false teachers therefore teach stories that they have made up out of their own minds (2 Pet. 2:3), and Peter condemns them throughout the second chapter.
**
He does so only after he first establishes his own foundation for speaking with authority. The false teachers might promote cleverly invented stories but not the apostles. Instead they were eyewitnesses of Christ’s life and work (2 Pet. 1:16). Peter speaks with authority because, like Moses and Elijah, he had heard the voice from heaven when he was with Christ on the holy mountain (2 Pet. 1:18). Peter understands his presence at the transfiguration (Matt. 17:1–13) as the time when he inherited the prophetic authority of Moses and Elijah. Just before this transmission of authority Christ commissioned Peter to be the rock on which the Church would be built (Matt. 16:17–19). As a result, Peter claims an even higher authority and a more certain word than the prophets themselves (2 Pet. 1:19).

Because of this it is Peter who has the authority to interpret Scripture. Just as the gospel does not consist of “cleverly invented fables,” so the interpretation of Scripture is not of any private interpretation (2 Pet. 1:20). As the false prophets spoke out of their own imagination, so the Greek word for “private” in verse 20 of chapter 1 means “out of your own head.” It is the familiar opposite of “authoritative” or "inspired."

catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9906fea4.asp

 

[believers]

Further, you are contradicting the authority of Jesus Himself, who wants us to obey apostolic authority.

From the Word of God:

Acts 5:13 - the people acknowledged the apostles’ special authority and did not dare take it upon themselves.

Acts 15:6,24; 16:4 - the teaching authority is granted to the apostles and their successors. This teaching authority must be traced to the original apostles, or the authority is not sanctioned by Christ.

Rom. 15:16 – Paul says he is a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable. This refers to the ministerial priesthood of the ordained which is distinguishable from the universal priesthood of the laity. Notice the Gentiles are the “sacrifice” and Paul does the “offering.”

1 Cor. 5:3-5; 16:22; 1 Tim. 1:20; Gal 1:8; Matt 18:17 – these verses show the authority of the elders to excommunicate / anathemize (“deliver to satan”).

2 Cor. 2:17 - Paul says the elders are not just random peddlers of God’s word. They are actually commissioned by God. It is not self-appointed authority.

2 Cor. 3:6 – Paul says that certain men have been qualified by God to be ministers of a New Covenant. This refers to the ministerial priesthood of Christ handed down the ages through sacramental ordination.

2 Cor. 10:8 - Paul acknowledges his authority over God’s people which the Lord gave to build up the Church.

1 Thess. 5:12-13 - Paul charges the members of the Church to respect those who have authority over them.

2 Thess. 3:14 - Paul says if a person does not obey what he has provided in his letter, have nothing to do with him.

1 Tim. 5:17 - Paul charges the members of the Church to honor the appointed elders (“priests”) of the Church.

Titus 2:15 - Paul charges Timothy to exhort and reprove with all authority, which he received by the laying on of hands.

Heb. 12:9 – in the context of spiritual discipline, the author says we have had earthly fathers (referring to the ordained leaders) to discipline us and we respected them.

Heb. 13:7,17 - Paul charges the members of the Church to remember and **obey their leaders who have authority over their souls. **

2 Peter 2:10 - Peter warns the faithful about despising authority. He is referring to the apostolic authority granted to them by Christ.

3 John 9 - John points out that Diotrephes does not acknowledge John’s apostolic authority and declares that this is evil.

Deut. 17:10-13 - the Lord commands His faithful Israel to obey the priests that He puts in charge, and do to all that they direct and instruct. The Lord warns that those who do not obey His priests shall die.

www.scripturecatholic.com

I see nothing in the Word of God to support your claim that one receives authority from God through private revelation or self-appointment.

By the way, here is the King James version of those verses

Act 5:13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.

Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:

Act 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.

Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind [and] one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I’m not going any further, because your translation and mine are different. I use the King James version. I will believe the KJV over any other version.

 

[Eden]

Can you prove that your church has the authority to begin with?

Should I begin by illustrating that the Church has the authority of apostolic succession, through the laying on of hands, for 2,000 years in concordance with the description of the transfer of authority in the Word of God? I can begin by showing the transfer of apostolic succession from Peter straight through to Benedict XVI (from 32 A.D. to the present):

newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

 

[Eden]

I’m not going any further, because your translation and mine are different. I use the King James version. I will believe the KJV over any other version.

And I am supposed to submit to the authority of a bible commissioned by a Protestant king a couple hundred years ago because…?

You realize Christ did not speak modern English, right?

And do you deny that your description of your source of authority fits neatly with the Word of God’s description of false prophets and is, at the same time, in contradiction to the transfer of authority established in the same Word of God?