Split: Prot/Cath stance on Mary : Church Authority

[believers]

Dear Eden,

I don’t know where you are getting those translations but they’re not accurate. Are you just going to believe what someone else tells you? Why don’t you spend your time finding the best translation from the Greek & Hebrew and trust your salvation in the Word of God? The King James is a very accurate translation. I noticed in many of your verses that those words don’t even exist. Many words were added which changes the meaning. I only go by the KJV because it closely reflects the Hebrew and Greek. The English versions are just a guide to help you to understand but I wouldn’t build doctrine on it unless it lines up with the Word.

God Bless,

 

[believers]

Should I begin by illustrating that the Church has the authority of apostolic succession, through the laying on of hands, for 2,000 years in concordance with the description of the transfer of authority in the Word of God? I can begin by showing the transfer of apostolic succession from Peter straight through to Benedict XVI (from 32 A.D. to the present):

newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

Eden,

Again, you will not be able to prove anything without an accurate translation. It wouldn’t hurt to read from an accurate, trustworthy translation.

Your brother in Christ

 

[Eden]

Dear Eden,

I don’t know where you are getting those translations but they’re not accurate. Are you just going to believe what someone else tells you? Why don’t you spend your time finding the best translation from the Greek & Hebrew and trust your salvation in the Word of God? The King James is a very accurate translation. I noticed in many of your verses that those words don’t even exist. Many words were added which changes the meaning. I only go by the KJV because it closely reflects the Hebrew and Greek. The English versions are just a guide to help you to understand but I wouldn’t build doctrine on it unless it lines up with the Word.

God Bless,

Oh, I see the trouble. You thought the sentences following the passages were the actual bible verses. No, no, no. That is the commentary on the verses from scripturecatholic.com.

What I find more interesting than your attempt to hide your lack of authority behind the claim of biblical mistranslations, is that you are implying that you deny that the Word of God describes how authority is transferred through apostolic succession and the laying on of hands. And that the Word of God clearly states that false prophets claim authority through private revelation.

 

[believers]

And I am supposed to submit to the authority of a bible commissioned by a Protestant king a couple hundred years ago because…?

You realize Christ did not speak modern English, right?

And do you deny that your description of your source of authority fits neatly with the Word of God’s description of false prophets and is, at the same time, in contradiction to the transfer of authority established in the same Word of God?

You see, the Holy Spirit gave us the Word in Greek after Jesus left the earth. The Holy Spirit must have used Greek because it is a very accurate language. Many words for the same thing with slightly different meanings… .like Petros and petra.

Also, King James ordered 54 of the best scholars of his time to translate the bible. It is a very accurate version. I would say douay rheims but unfortunately there are too many errors.

Well… goodnite and God Bless.

 

[Eden]

Eden,

Again, you will not be able to prove anything without an accurate translation. It wouldn’t hurt to read from an accurate, trustworthy translation.

Your brother in Christ

Can you please tell me about the accurate translation of the “List of Popes” which I assume is the King James version? Or did you not mean to attach that comment to this particular post?

 

[believers]

Oh, I see the trouble. You thought the sentences following the passages were the actual bible verses. No, no, no. That is the commentary on the verses from scripturecatholic.com.

What I find more interesting than your attempt to hide your lack of authority behind the claim of biblical mistranslations, is that you are implying that you deny that the Word of God describes how authority is transferred through apostolic succession and the laying on of hands. And that the Word of God clearly states that false prophets claim authority through private revelation.

No, I meant exactly what I said. Your translation of the Bible is inaccurate. I’m not referring to your commentary. I understand what you were doing. Please, I have nothing to gain by asking you find an accurate translation. My authority comes from the Bible. My version says to study the Word of God which I will do.

 

[Eden]

You see, the Holy Spirit gave us the Word in Greek after Jesus left the earth. The Holy Spirit must have used Greek because it is a very accurate language. Many words for the same thing with slightly different meanings… .like Petros and petra.

A few seconds of research will illustrate your error in the “petros”/“petra” argument. This poor argument has been debunked repeatedly:

catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9811chap.asp

Also, King James ordered 54 of the best scholars of his time to translate the bible. It is a very accurate version. I would say douay rheims but unfortunately there are too many errors.

Again, are you stating that the King James Version does not describe false prophets as being self-proclaimed? And that the King James Version does not establish authority as taught by Jesus and the apostles nor illustrate the transfer of that authority through the laying on of hands? I’ll go research those verses and bring the KJV translations to this thread.

 

[Eden]

No, I meant exactly what I said. Your translation of the Bible is inaccurate. I’m not referring to your commentary. I understand what you were doing. Please, I have nothing to gain by asking you find an accurate translation. My authority comes from the Bible. My version says to study the Word of God which I will do.

How do you know that my translation of the Bible is inaccurate? I haven’t provided the passages, just the book and verses with commentary about their meaning from scripturecatholic.com. How can you claim that my translation is inaccurate when 1) I haven’t provided a translation and 2) the Douay-Rheims is not the only version used by Catholics?

Your Bible states that authority comes from self-proclamation? I am sure I have never heard such a thing! Studying the Word of God and believing you have the authority to interpret it in ways that contradict Church teachings are two separate issues.

You have appointed yourself an authority. That’s not biblical. That’s not the Word of God.

 

[believers]

Can you please tell me about the accurate translation of the “List of Popes” which I assume is the King James version? Or did you not mean to attach that comment to this particular post?

We’ll have to get into the pope thing some other time because it’s late. The authority thing is a non-issue now because there are no verses in the Greek that teach against it.

If I don’t come back in a while it’s only because I’m very busy. But please remember that you want to learn the Word of God as close to Greek as possible. I found the King James version to be very close. Don’t trust just any translation.

Goodnite Eden and God Bless.

 

[Eden]

1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

www.online-literature.com/bible/2_Peter/

So, the KJV fits exactly with what has already been said.

As I quote from the Catholic Answers library earlier, "the whole point of the second epistle of Peter is to stress the divine teaching authority of the apostles. Second Peter is a long argument against false teachers, whom Peter compares to false prophets (2 Pet. 2:1). In the Old Testament it is only false prophets who prophesy what their own minds prompt them to say (Jer. 23:15, Ezek. 13:3). The genuine prophet only speaks from the Lord (Jer. 1:4–10). The false teachers therefore teach stories that they have made up out of their own minds (2 Pet. 2:3), and Peter condemns them throughout the second chapter.

He does so only after he first establishes his own foundation for speaking with authority."

The KJV translation does nothing to contradict what I have already asserted, that authority is transferred through apostolic succession and self-proclaimed authority is the way of the false prophet.

 

[Eden]

We’ll have to get into the pope thing some other time because it’s late. The authority thing is a non-issue now because there are no verses in the Greek that teach against it.

I never claimed that there are no verses in Greek that teach against authority. In fact, I state the complete opposite and assert that, based on the biblical model of authority, you have none. Authority is clearly established in the Word of God and I proved it in the three successive posts on authority from scripturecatholic.com. Further, false authority is defined in the Word of God and that false authority comes from those who claim to have private revelation vs. apostolic succession.

If I don’t come back in a while it’s only because I’m very busy. But please remember that you want to learn the Word of God as close to Greek as possible. I found the King James version to be very close.

I did not realize you were a scholar of ancient Greek. That is very admirable.

Don’t trust just any translation

Can you show me the KJV translation that describes authority from Jesus being tranferred via private revelation?

Can you show me the KJV translation that described apostolic authority and the laying on of hands as the means of false prophets?

If you cannot, than your evasion through “inaccurate translation” is invalid.

You have not shown me one verse, KJV or otherwise, that states that private revelation is the channel through which God transfers authority.

 

[lak611]

We’ll have to get into the pope thing some other time because it’s late. The authority thing is a non-issue now because there are no verses in the Greek that teach against it.

If I don’t come back in a while it’s only because I’m very busy. But please remember that you want to learn the Word of God as close to Greek as possible. I found the King James version to be very close. Don’t trust just any translation.

Goodnite Eden and God Bless.

Believers, there already is a thread about the KJV-onlyism. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1542677#post1542677. This thread is about Mary, not the KJV. Please check my link if you want to debate the KJV.

 

[runandsew]

You see, the Holy Spirit gave us the Word in Greek after Jesus left the earth. The Holy Spirit must have used Greek because it is a very accurate language. Many words for the same thing with slightly different meanings… .like Petros and petra.

Also, King James ordered 54 of the best scholars of his time to translate the bible. It is a very accurate version. I would say douay rheims but unfortunately there are too many errors.

Well… goodnite and God Bless.

There is some evidence that Matthew was originally written in Aramaic/Hebrew before it was later translated into Greek.So the Petros and Petra difference wouldn’t make a difference.
Plus didn’t you ever listen to the Johnny Cash song “A Boy Named Sue”, I don’t think Peter would have wanted to go around with a girls name.
Most of the top protestant scholars think the difference is due to the writer not wanting to give Peter a feminine name, not them trying to make him a “small stone”.
But then again we are talking about Mary here, Mary is the Queen Mother who sits at the right hand of Jesus in Heaven, Just like all the Davidic Kings did through history. In 1 Kings 2:19 “Then Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king’s mother, who sat at his right”, (this is the start of the Queen Mothers). If you read on in 1 and 2 Kings, you will notice almost every King of Judah has his mother named, and twice it speaks of them as the queen mother in 1 Kings
Chapter 15:13 and 2 Kings 10:13, this shows the continuing practice of the Queen mother.
In Revelation 12 reads - “A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars”. The “woman” has different meanings like the church, Israel, and Jerulsalem, but one of the meanings is that the woman is Mary.
Jesus is the fulfillment of the Davidic line, the King of Judah in Heaven, and it would be fitting that he has placed his mother at his right side just like all his predecessors did, this is very biblical. He honors his mother and we should honor her likewise.

 

[believers]

I never claimed that there are no verses in Greek that teach against authority. In fact, I state the complete opposite and assert that, based on the biblical model of authority, you have none. Authority is clearly established in the Word of God and I proved it in the three successive posts on authority from scripturecatholic.com. Further, false authority is defined in the Word of God and that false authority comes from those who claim to have private revelation vs. apostolic succession.

I did not realize you were a scholar of ancient Greek. That is very admirable.

Can you show me the KJV translation that describes authority from Jesus being tranferred via private revelation?

Can you show me the KJV translation that described apostolic authority and the laying on of hands as the means of false prophets?

If you cannot, than your evasion through “inaccurate translation” is invalid.

You have not shown me one verse, KJV or otherwise, that states that private revelation is the channel through which God transfers authority.

Dear Eden, You apparently did not understand what I said. The Catholic Religion does not have the authority to tell me or anyone that I cannot read, understand, and preach the Bible. Any accurate translation of the bible will tell you that.

Mar 16:15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

The verses you gave me are corrupt and not even in the Bible. They are invalid, inaccurate, and untrue. You’ll need an accurate translation to get a firm understanding of what the Bible really says. I highly recommended that you read and understand instead of copying and pasting from an inaccurate source.

 

[believers]

Acts 5:13 -
the people acknowledged the apostles’ special authority and did not dare take it upon themselves. YOUR inaccurate version

Acts 5:13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them. Accurate version

I will stick with the KJV which tells me to "study to show thyself approved unto God. 2Ti 2:15 " I will also continue to "**preach the cross ** 1Cr 1:18 ", “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; Romans 1:16”

According to the Bible, I have the authority whether your translation or church says so or not.

 

[Eden]

Dear Eden, You apparently did not understand what I said. The Catholic Religion does not have the authority to tell me or anyone that I cannot read, understand, and preach the Bible. Any accurate translation of the bible will tell you that.

Mar 16:15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

The verses you gave me are corrupt and not even in the Bible. They are invalid, inaccurate, and untrue. You’ll need an accurate translation to get a firm understanding of what the Bible really says. I highly recommended that you read and understand instead of copying and pasting from an inaccurate source.

You are free to express your opinions on theological matters on these forums. But, as you have established yourself, your opinions that you receive from private revelation which contradict Church teachings are not inspirations from God.

 

[runandsew]

Acts 5:13 -
the people acknowledged the apostles’ special authority and did not dare take it upon themselves. YOUR inaccurate version

Acts 5:13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them. Accurate version

I will stick with the KJV which tells me to "study to show thyself approved unto God. 2Ti 2:15 " I will also continue to "**preach the cross ** 1Cr 1:18 ", “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; Romans 1:16”

According to the Bible, I have the authority whether your translation or church says so or not.

I really apprieciate that you love the Bible so much, we all love Gods words written to us, but to say that the Kings James version is the only accurate bible is false.
In less you are fluent in the Greek used at the time the original text were written, then it is best if you have several different versions to compare, maybe 3 or 4. Then you can compare the differences and have a better idea of what the the passage means.
Here is a link from wikipedia about king james only.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Only_Movement
I recommend that you look up both the pro and con arguments to have a better grasp on what english version is most accurate.
NO ENGLISH TRANSLATION IS PERFECT, THEY ALL HAVE STRONG POINTS, AND WEAK POINTS.
That is why you need to check out several different versions on the passages which don’t make sense, or if someone else tells you it means something else.

If you want to ague a point in the Bible, but say that you have the only accurate version of the Bible, that the other person’s version in unaccurate, well you won’t win many debates. In a debate you need to use the version of the Bible that the other person uses, and prove to them using their version that they are wrong.

 

[believers]

You are free to express your opinions on theological matters on these forums. But, as you have established yourself, your opinions that you receive from private revelation which contradict Church teachings are not inspirations from God.

Dear Eden,

I can’t see how I can take you seriously if you continue like this. You’re using an inaccurate translation and you base your belief on them. If you’re going to post something at least be sure that it is accurate. Your verses on Authority DO NOT EXIST in the Word of God.

MY claim is that the Bible is the only authority. Your church has no authority to correct… correction only comes from the Word of God.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[santaro75]

Dear Eden, You apparently did not understand what I said. The Catholic Religion does not have the authority to tell me or anyone that I cannot read, understand, and preach the Bible. Any accurate translation of the bible will tell you that.

Mar 16:15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

The verses you gave me are corrupt and not even in the Bible. They are invalid, inaccurate, and untrue. You’ll need an accurate translation to get a firm understanding of what the Bible really says. I highly recommended that you read and understand instead of copying and pasting from an inaccurate source.

The KJV is not a good translation. if personal private translation was all that mattered, then there would be no need for pastors, priests or any teaching authority. you could just read the bible. then of course you would have a different church for every person.

You can not tell me that your views were not shaped by the tradition you learned from. they are not from the bible alone. they are from an interpretation of the bible alone. probably the interpretation taught by whatever church/institution you studied/learned from.

So that begs the question, which institution has authority.

If Jesus didn’t found a church and only found the bible, why didn’t he have scribes writing down everything he taught as it happened?

 

[believers]

I really apprieciate that you love the Bible so much, we all love Gods words written to us, but to say that the Kings James version is the only accurate bible is false.
In less you are fluent in the Greek used at the time the original text were written, then it is best if you have several different versions to compare, maybe 3 or 4. Then you can compare the differences and have a better idea of what the the passage means.
Here is a link from wikipedia about king james only.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Only_Movement
I recommend that you look up both the pro and con arguments to have a better grasp on what english version is most accurate.
NO ENGLISH TRANSLATION IS PERFECT, THEY ALL HAVE STRONG POINTS, AND WEAK POINTS.
That is why you need to check out several different versions on the passages which don’t make sense, or if someone else tells you it means something else.

If you want to ague a point in the Bible, but say that you have the only accurate version of the Bible, that the other person’s version in unaccurate, well you won’t win many debates. In a debate you need to use the version of the Bible that the other person uses, and prove to them using their version that they are wrong.

The Word of God does not change… only translations. I did my homework and found KJV to be the most accurate. One can easily determine the accuracy of a translation by going to the Greek text and verifying. If you’re confident in your translation, why not post one of your verses and we’ll go to the Greek text and see how accurate it is?