SPLIT: Purgatory: Biblical?

  • Thread starter Thread starter DLClark
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
D

DLClark

Guest
How can purgatory be biblical when Christ bore the penalty for our sins on the Cross so that the stain of sin is removed from all who accept Christ by faith?

If Christ bore the penalty for our sins on the Cross why does man have to? Christ has already born our sins for us on the Cross.
1 Peter 2:24
and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
NASU

By faith in Christ the cure for sin is given. That is why we are healed by faith in Christ from sins plague by the death of Christ on the Cross.
(Edited)

Christ has already paid the price for our sins so why do we needed to? We don’t. In faith we are accept the offer of God’s free gift of eternal life. When we do we will recieve, upon believing, everlasting life will never perish.
 
40.png
DLClark:
Correct. Christ has already paid the price for our sins so why do we needed to? We don’t. In faith we are accept the offer of God’s free gift of eternal life. When we do we will recieve, upon believing, everlasting life will never perish.
Click to expand...
Incorrect. Purgatory does exist and it is part of the Catholic faith. There are temporal sins that must be cleansed before we can enter heaven in a pure state.

DLClark, this is the traditional catholicism forum. If you wish to be a part of apolgoetics, there are other appropriate forums for such discussions and debate.
 
GodIsGracious said:
Incorrect. Purgatory does exist and it is part of the Catholic faith. There are temporal sins that must be cleansed before we can enter heaven in a pure state.

DLClark, this is the traditional catholicism forum. If you wish to be a part of apolgoetics, there are other appropriate forums for such discussions and debate.
Click to expand...
Q. How come you must feel that what Christ did on the Cross, in paying for your sins, was not enough for you and that you must pay as well for your sins? Christ said His deth on the Cross was enough. Here read it in the Bible.
The word “propitiation” means satisfaction. in the greek: PROPITIATION
  1. hilasmos NT:2434, akin to hileos (“merciful, propitious”), signifies “an expiation, a means whereby sin is covered and remitted.” It is used in the NT of Christ Himself as “the propitiation,” in 1 John 2:2 and 4:10, signifying that He Himself, through the expiatory sacrifice of His death, is the personal means by whom God shows mercy to the sinner who believes on Christ as the One thus provided. In the former passage He is described as “the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.” The italicized addition in the KJV, “the sins of,” gives a wrong interpretation. What is indicated is that provision is made for the whole world, so that no one is, by divine predetermination, excluded from the scope of God’s mercy; the efficacy of the “propitiation,” however, is made actual for those who believe. In 4:10, the fact that God “sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins,” is shown to be the great expression of God’s love toward man, and the reason why Christians should love one another.
    (from Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
Why must you think you need to add to what God has done for you on the CrossF Keep your eyes in Christ. the Author and finisher of yon our faith and not your self purgatory or mortification of the flesh. Your efforts will amount to nothing if you keep up this idea of purgatory. Why is that, because Christ has done it all for us that is why. It is Finished.
 
DLClark said:
Q. How come you must feel that what Christ did on the Cross, in paying for your sins, was not enough for you and that you must pay as well for your sins? Christ said His deth on the Cross was enough. Here read it in the Bible.
The word “propitiation” means satisfaction. in the greek: PROPITIATION
  1. hilasmos NT:2434, akin to hileos (“merciful, propitious”), signifies “an expiation, a means whereby sin is covered and remitted.” It is used in the NT of Christ Himself as “the propitiation,” in 1 John 2:2 and 4:10, signifying that He Himself, through the expiatory sacrifice of His death, is the personal means by whom God shows mercy to the sinner who believes on Christ as the One thus provided. In the former passage He is described as “the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.” The italicized addition in the KJV, “the sins of,” gives a wrong interpretation. What is indicated is that provision is made for the whole world, so that no one is, by divine predetermination, excluded from the scope of God’s mercy; the efficacy of the “propitiation,” however, is made actual for those who believe. In 4:10, the fact that God “sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins,” is shown to be the great expression of God’s love toward man, and the reason why Christians should love one another.
    (from Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
Why must you think you need to add to what God has done for you on the CrossF Keep your eyes in Christ. the Author and finisher of yon our faith and not your self purgatory or mortification of the flesh. Your efforts will amount to nothing if you keep up this idea of purgatory. Why is that, because Christ has done it all for us that is why. It is Finished.
Click to expand...
To repeat: If you would like debate on apologetics, there are oher forums for this. For one, there’s the Apologetics forum. The other is the Non-Catholics forum. This is the forum for Traditional Catholicism.
 
GodIsGracious said:
To repeat: If you would like debate on apologetics, there are oher forums for this. For one, there’s the Apologetics forum. The other is the Non-Catholics forum. This is the forum for Traditional Catholicism.
Click to expand...
That is why I ask the questions I do. I want to know why you must feel that you must do something that Christ has already done for you? Can you support your idea of pergatory withing the pages of the Bible?
 
DLClark said:
That is why I ask the questions I do. I want to know why you must feel that you must do something that Christ has already done for you? Can you support your idea of pergatory withing the pages of the Bible?
Click to expand...
Please go to the apologetics and the non-Catholics forums. They have addressed this issue numerous times.
 
GodIsGracious said:
To repeat: If you would like debate on apologetics, there are other forums for this. For one, there’s the Apologetics forum. The other is the Non-Catholics forum. This is the forum for Traditional Catholicism.
Click to expand...
Thread split and moved to Apologetics where such discussions/debates belong.
 
DLClark said:
How can purgatory be biblical when Christ bore the penalty for our sins on the Cross so that the stain of sin is removed from all who accept Christ by faith?

If Christ bore the penalty for our sins on the Cross why does man have to? Christ has already born our sins for us on the Cross.
Click to expand...
It sounds like you don’t understand what purgatory is. Let me help you by asking a few questions:
  1. Are you now completely free of sin and the desire to sin?
  2. When you die as a saved Christian, will you then be completely free of sin and the desire to sin?
If you answered “no” and “yes”, please explain how you will become transformed from a sinner to a non-sinner. If you answered anything else, please expound on your answers.
 
DLClark said:
How can purgatory be biblical when Christ bore the penalty for our sins on the Cross so that the stain of sin is removed from all who accept Christ by faith?

If Christ bore the penalty for our sins on the Cross why does man have to? Christ has already born our sins for us on the Cross.
1 Peter 2:24
and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
NASU

By faith in Christ the cure for sin is given. That is why we are healed by faith in Christ from sins plague by the death of Christ on the Cross.
(Edited)

It is very biblical. It referred in some of the 73 books including Tobias, 1 and 2 Machabees, Romans and 1 Corinthians

Christ has already paid the price for our sins so why do we needed to? We don’t. In faith we are accept the offer of God’s free gift of eternal life. When we do we will recieve, upon believing, everlasting life will never perish.
Click to expand...
 
DLClark said:
How can purgatory be biblical when Christ bore the penalty for our sins on the Cross so that the stain of sin is removed from all who accept Christ by faith?

If Christ bore the penalty for our sins on the Cross why does man have to? Christ has already born our sins for us on the Cross.
1 Peter 2:24
and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
NASU

By faith in Christ the cure for sin is given. That is why we are healed by faith in Christ from sins plague by the death of Christ on the Cross.
(Edited)

Christ has already paid the price for our sins so why do we needed to? We don’t. In faith we are accept the offer of God’s free gift of eternal life. When we do we will recieve, upon believing, everlasting life will never perish.
Click to expand...
Hi DLClark, here is a link to the Catholic Encyclopedia which explains the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. It should help you understand that Purgatory IS Biblical, and in no way detracts from the propitiatory sacrifice that Christ made on the Cross.
 
DLClark said:
That is why I ask the questions I do. I want to know why you must feel that you must do something that Christ has already done for you? Can you support your idea of pergatory withing the pages of the Bible?
Click to expand...
I don’t mean to start another sola scriptura thread, but this begs the question:

Can YOU support your idea of accepting the Bible alone within the pages of the Bible?

My answer (along with every Catholic) is, of course, no. That being said we’d have to go into yet another big discussion on whether or not we should take the Bible by itself or with Tradition but this is not the thread for that. The reason I point this out is that the Bible wasn’t written to substantiate the views of Christians, it was written to create believers and servants of Christ. It’s difficult to use something for a purpose that it wasn’t intended to be used for. And I’m not saying that Purgatory isn’t in the Bible, because it is even if it’s not blatant, and I’m not saying that there aren’t doctrines in the Bible because there are. But the main purpose of the Bible, as John says in his Gospel, is to make believers.

The impression I got from the OP (which you probably didn’t mean to convey) is that you believe that once you profess faith in Christ, sin is completely wiped out. After all, I think you believe that you will go to heaven when you die, and we learn from Revelation that nothing unclean will enter heaven, therefore anyone that professes a belief in OSAS (or sola fide by extension) must believe they are sin free. Unless, of course, unclean means something different to you. If that’s so could you tell me what you mean?

I bring the passage from Revelation because that’s a large concept in the doctrine of Purgatory. Catholics believe, if I can paraphrase a quote from Karl Keating’s book, Catholicism and Fundamentalism, that no one is “holy enough” to merit heaven but not “evil enough” to deserve everlasting punishment. One point to make is that, while scripture might not blatantly tell us that a middle state exists, it does leave room for a middle state. An example is when Jesus speaks of the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which won’t be forgiven in this life or the next. This would only make sense if two things are true, 1) that we, in fact, still have sin on our souls (meaning we don’t just become sinless, something I believe VociMike alluded to. It also means that Jesus’ sacrifice doesn’t wipe out sin completely like I believe you assert, for “scriptural proof” that we too need to suffer read Col 1:24), and 2) that forgiveness is possible after death. These points, when put together with 1 Corinthians 3:15 (which demonstrates that sinners are indeed forgiven after death), demonstrate the reality of a middle state.

Catholics call this middle state “Purgatory”. While it isn’t easily laid out in scripture, it isn’t contrary to scripture and is alluded to.

Hope this helps,
Zach

P.S. I believe my arguments are still valid even if my assumptions about your beliefs are wrong and still should be taken into consideration.

P.P.S. Sorry to everyone for bringing up sola scriptura and OSAS, it seems that basically all of Protestantisms doctrines completely really on whether or not ss is true…

P.P.P.S. My argument structure may be weird because I was having a conversation at the time of writing this 🙂

P.P.P.P.S. Catholics, please correct me if my ideas of Catholic doctrine and scripture deviate from Church teaching! Thank you!
 
zann dunn, I have to agree that bringing up sola scriptura is pertinent, because that’s the initial basis for rejecting prugatory. "if it’s not in the Bible…(fill in the blank). The only problem with this (well, not the only problem :)) is that the Apostles were teaching and preaching the faith well before any of the New Testament scriptures were written. In fact, much of what was written was to *already established communities *of believers. If one needed only the Bible to inform his faith, how did these first Christians do it without the entire canon of scripture (which didn’t come about for over 300 years after the birth of Christ? There’s gotta be something else that fills in that blank (hint: The Church ;))

Nonetheless, this is all beside the point because the “not in the Bible” argument doesn’t even work for Purgatory anyway, as you show. 😃
 
Drawmack said:
Can you give me the actual New Testament quote that references purgatory by name please?
Click to expand...
Matthew 16:19 - 20

“18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven”
 
What is the big push for everything having to be in the bible explicitly? I don’t understand these types of demands.🤷
 
I believe the logic for the existence of Purgatory goes like this-
-Since the Church’s founding, we have been taught to pray for the dead
-If this teaching is to have a purpose, then there must be some state in which souls can benefits from out prayers.
-Those in Heaven don’t need our prayers
-Those in Hell can not be helped by our prayers
-This state is understood to be “Purgatory”
 
GodIsGracious said:
Me either. But then again, I grew up Catholic so I am used to Oral Tradition.
Click to expand...
You see, I don’t think the early christian communities had full OT’s at their fingertips at all times but they did have those taught by the apostles, so I don’t understand the need for the bible to be a guide today when it clearly was not needed for the early church.

But, I am sure some will say they can’t trust things unless they are in print. Maybe that is why Jesus never asked anyone to write things down, because he asked for trust in the men he chose.🙂
 
StrawberryJam said:
You see, I don’t think the early christian communities had full OT’s at their fingertips at all times but they did have those taught by the apostles, so I don’t understand the need for the bible to be a guide today when it clearly was not needed for the early church.

But, I am sure some will say they can’t trust things unless they are in print. Maybe that is why Jesus never asked anyone to write things down, because he asked for trust in the men he chose**.🙂
Click to expand...
This.

Is absolutely brilliant. 👍 Seriously.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top