Split: Purgatory Debate

[Linkowski]

Dan,

All of the studying that I have done over the couple of weeks that I have been on here has been an extreme eye-opener to me. They have not been eye-opening to you because you are set on where you are. I am not. I am willing to go wherever the truth takes me. I will send you a mail on Purgatory and the CCC’s scriptural basis (which is weak)…you need to give me scriptural evidence that cannot be explained away through other scriptures. I have given you scriptures that SAY once saved always saved but you insist on your set of scriptures. I have already showed you how the puzzle pieces fit together. All of these scriptures complement eachother.

Now, I pray that God may use me to open the eyes of those who are not seeing the truth now. I count this as a ministry and pray for God to help me to love as I ought - for without love, I am nothing.

May God Show You…

PS…what I have found is that people expect me to sit down and soak in everything and say, “Oh…that is what you believe…okay, I will become Catholic.” Not so.

Proverbs 14:15 KJV 15 The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

 

[Epsilon_Omega]

I don’t really want to get into this arguement for fear of being trounced upon, but hey, I’ll give it a shot.

Being an 18 year-old catholic kid not having experienced much besides catholicism (I went to Unity and Christian Science as a kid) and not being a crazy great theologian, here goes nothing.

In the Catholic Church, I believe, there are some people who put faith in what they do in works to please god and get bonus points into heaven. I agree with Craig on that aspect of it. But the “once-saved-always-saved” idea isn’t much better.

I believe that heaven is not just a walk in the park to get into. I think one should have their faith, but use works, to increase their faith. I am sure that performing works pleases God, because it shows him that you are actually doing something with your faith besides holding it in and smothering it. Why do you think you feel so good when you give like $20 bucks to one of those bell-ringers in front of Wal-Mart? I think God is sharing his love, because you are doing good deeds.

Human nature is that we sin. No human without the most pure of grace from God, can stop themselves from giving into each and every temptations. Eventually, temptation will come and it will bite you hard.

I think growing towards being saved (final judgement) and being accepted into heaven is a long process. We have to carry our own crosses, just like Jesus did. Perfection (like being saved) isn’t one single moment, it is the striving for perfection and progressing over time. Man is not perfect, thats why I believe the process to being saved is a long process. Craig, you might say you are being saved, but you aren’t perfect. I feel saved right now too, and I feel that everytime I pray to God, but I still have a very long time to go before I am SAVED.

I am very happy, for you Craig, isn’t it a great feeling? I love it Sometimes you just have to take a break and think about God’s love. ( I am pretty sure God has a great sense of humor).

Ok getting back to it, can you define your idea of Saved for me, because I still don’t understand the whole once-saved-always-saved idea. Are you stating that you are incapable of sinning, because sinning would keep you from being Saved in final judgement. Or do you mean that you are incapable of committing a mortal sin, which would turn you away from God? I kind of understand the once saved always saved, something like, because you will never turn away from God. But I don’t think it as black and white as you say it. Like above, I still think we have to carry our Crosses like Christ did and truely put all our faith in God to protect us when we are weak.

Craig wrote → Continued repentance and seeking of regularly forgiveness is for the purpose of keeping a close relationship with the Father and have one on one communion with Him. We must come to him and put off our sandles (dirty feet) as we come into the Most Holy Place by the blood of our High Priest, Jesus Christ. We need foot washings regularly but are clean every whit (justfied) - but as we are being sanctifiied, he is purifying us and part of that purification is going to Him for forgiveness

That kind of goes against the once saved, always saved idea for everyone. Once saved, always saved might work for you, but once we turn away from god, even for a small moment, we are not saved anymore. We have and always will have the free will to choose against God. That is why Once saved, always saved doesn’t quite work. We are saved by God’s Grace, I think you once saved, always saved might be bad for you, because if you keep believing it you might get lazy, you know what I am saying. “Now that I am saved, I won’t have to try so hard.” You always have to keep working and fighting.

What I have heard from you, about you being prideful and doing works to merit salvation really has nothing to do with the catholic church, just yourself. We could use you back here in the Catholic Church to spread God’s love and knowledge. You aren’t that bad of a guy Craig . You are almost to my cool, it’s a man of faith category of good guys. I need more sleep. I am glad that you are so fired up for God, go and spread it to my generation, we really need it with what is going on today in the world and our teen culture. Stay cool, Craig. I’ll keep you in my thoughts up to God. And Maybe, just maybe, god might someday say, dude, you need to go back to the Catholic church. Until then we catholics will be waiting. Good luck on your spiritual journey, and maybe have some innocent fun along the way. Merry late Christmas to you all, :tiphat: If you guys still have egg nog, PARTY ON. Kidding. Happy Birthday, Jesus.

 

[djrakowski]

All of the studying that I have done over the couple of weeks that I have been on here has been an extreme eye-opener to me. They have not been eye-opening to you because you are set on where you are.

Craig, I am a convert to the Catholic faith. I studied my way in. I am set on where I am because I have finally found the Church that Jesus Christ established.

This discussion has likewise been an eye-opener for me. There’s been FAR more evidence against your “once-saved-only-saved” position, and instead of acknowledging it, you’ve forced your OSAS hermeneutic on the rest of scripture with disastrous results. You insist that those in the book of life who are blotted out were never saved, and that those cut off from the true vine that is Jesus were never saved, thereby forcing OSAS onto verses that simply do not teach it. You’re clearly determined to stay where you’ve planted yourself, and then come into a Catholic forum with solid, knowledgeable, well-studied Catholics, patronizing us in your signature line of “May God Show You.” Has it ever occured to you that he has shown us, and that YOU and your position could be wrong, and ours right?

I am not. I am willing to go wherever the truth takes me.

This is clearly a false statement, as you insist when presented with evidence beyond a shadow of a doubt in holding an erroneous belief, regardless of the fact that it isn’t taught in scripture, and was never taught by anyone in the Church prior to the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century.

I will send you a mail on Purgatory and the CCC’s scriptural basis (which is weak)…you need to give me scriptural evidence that cannot be explained away through other scriptures.

Don’t bother. You reject the scriptural evidence because of a starting bias against the Catholic Church. Besides, you don’t have the entire Bible, and some of the references for purgatory are contained in those books the Reformers removed.

I have given you scriptures that SAY once saved always saved but you insist on your set of scriptures. I have already showed you how the puzzle pieces fit together. All of these scriptures complement eachother.

You have forced the puzzle pieces to fit together by shoving the pieces where they don’t fit.

Be honest and modify your profile. If you insist that “once-saved-always-saved” is absolutely taught in scripture, and are unwilling to part with that belief, then you are not willing to consider entering the Catholic Church. The folks who post to these forums are entitled to you representing yourself truthfully.

Now, I pray that God may use me to open the eyes of those who are not seeing the truth now. I count this as a ministry and pray for God to help me to love as I ought - for without love, I am nothing.

Craig, many, many of us were once where you are now, and we have carefully studied ourselves into the Catholic Church. Your statement about opening our eyes is all any Catholic needs to know about you. Apparently you think you’ve been led here to lead us poor, deluded Catholics out of this error, which is not only patronizing, but dishonest, since you persist in telling us that you’re willing to convert.

May God Show You…

Likewise, may God show you. By that comment, you reveal that you believe yourself to be correct, and all of us to be wrong. Well, we think the same of you and your position, and likewise pray that God will show you the error of the “once-saveds-always-saved” belief system.

PS…what I have found is that people expect me to sit down and soak in everything and say, “Oh…that is what you believe…okay, I will become Catholic.” Not so.

Proverbs 14:15 KJV 15 The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

Oh, please! Craig, do you realize how we could turn this around to focus on you? You could esaily be the simple man relying upon your pastor and a bias against Catholicism and toward the error of “once-saved-always-saved.”

What of all the non-Catholic churches - the majority, in fact - who do not agree with you. How do you determine who’s correct? Which of you, all claiming to be guided by scripture and the Holy Spirit into all truth, are to be trusted as teaching all truth?

 

[djrakowski]

Folks, Mr. Linkowski claims to be willing to convert to the Catholic Church in his profile, but has evidenced in this thread that he is here to show the truth to us poor, deluded Catholics. It is probably best not feed into it any longer.

 

[Linkowski]

**I was willing **but now unwilling. Therefore, I will change my profile. I would like to thank all of you for your help. God has used you to help me to study all the right things so that I can come to full knowledge of the truth…

We are saved on the basis of who we are, not what we do. But who we are causes us to do what we do. We are His people and we must make our calling and election sure. Even our belief is received as a gift by the grace of God (Acts 18:27). Once saved always saved…by grace through faith…a faith that works. He has ordained the end and the means and elected or chosen us from the foundation of the world according to His own plan and purpose. ALL THE MORE REASON TO GIVE GLORY TO HIM AND TO WORK FOR HIM AND LOVE HIM – BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US.

GLORY TO GOD!!!

 

[Church_Militant]

All of the studying that I have done over the couple of weeks that I have been on here has been an extreme eye-opener to me. They have not been eye-opening to you because you are set on where you are. I am not. I am willing to go wherever the truth takes me. I will send you a mail on Purgatory and the CCC’s scriptural basis (which is weak)…you need to give me scriptural evidence that cannot be explained away through other scriptures. …

Proverbs 14:15 KJV 15 The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

Well, maybe you need to check again Craig.

This is not true, There is ample evidence that the Bible implicitly teaches a Purgatory.

Begin with Matthew 12:32, which says, “And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.” Does this not imply that some sins can be forgiven in the age to come? Now think this through…There is no sin to forgive in heaven, right? Sin is not forgiven in hell because it’s too late and permanent. So…Impicit “purgatory”

1st Corinthians 3:15 which says, “If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.” Again this cannot refer to heaven or hell for the same reasons as above. This is essentially the definition of Purgatory.

1st Peter 3:18-20 which says, “Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: 20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.”

and 1st Peter 4:6 which says, “For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit” Note that it was a prison for disobedient spirits and yet they were saved when Jesus preached to them.

2nd Maccabees 12:44-46 which says, "44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) 45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. "
The same reasons apply here as to the first passages I gave you…

Note also that St. Paul says that the early church believed this in 1st Corinthians 15:29 which says, "Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them? " He does not condemn this practice though it seems to have fallen out of practice…

The Jews also believe this and still do today (as if the passage from 2nd Maccabees doesn’t clearly show this). I offer info from my good friend Andy who is an Orthodox Jew who lives in Israel:

(Cont’d)

 

[Church_Militant]

"Hi all!

Our prayer, the Mourner’s Kaddish, is for the benefit of the soul of the deceased & is believed to ease the spiritual status of the deceased’s soul as it goes through whatever trials & tribulations it may be subject to. Yes, we do believe in something akin to the Roman Catholic notion of Purgatory & thus saying the Mourner’s Kaddish would be similar to the Roman Catholic idea of praying for the souls in Purgatory.

Look at ou.org/yerushalayim/kadish.htm#Meaning

.

The text there is the (5 clause) Mourner’s Kaddish in Hebrew, transliterated English & English (you can also listen to it in RealAudio).

As I understand it, a soul that has sinned in this world has to pay for its actions/inactions in the next world. We do not automatically & necessarily divide souls into the entirely righteous who will therefore enjoy enternal bliss and the entirely evil who will therefore suffer eternal damnation. The degrees in between are infinite & we believe that God rewards/punishes each soul according to its good/not good actions. As I said, the recitation of the Kaddish prayer is believed to benefit the soul of the deceased as it goes through whatever trials and tribulations it has to endure in the next world.

In addition to the aforementioned Kaddish prayer (which is usually said by a son for a departed parent for 11 months after the day of burial, but which can also be said for 30 days for a spouse, child or sibling, particularly if none of these have children to say the Kaddish; the Kaddish is also recited on the anniversary of the burial), there are the Yizkor (literally: “He will remember”) and E-l Maleh Rahamim (literally: “God Full of Mercy”) prayers (see ou.org/yerushalayim/yizkor/) which are recited 4 times a year on Yom Kippur, the last day of Passover, Shavuot and Shemini Atzeret (see jewfaq.org/toc.htm for links to all of these holydays).

I submit the following excerpt (from jewfaq.org/death.htm):

In addition to the Kaddish. it is believed that the recitation of the Yizkor and E-l Maleh Rahamim prayers are beneficial to the soul of the departed. On the anniversary of the burial, it is common to study some chapter of the Talmud or the Tanakh (what we call what Christians call the “Old Testament”), read a selection of Psalms, give to charity, etc. in honor/memory of the departed. This is also believed to be beneficial."I had already discovered this in talking to a devout Orthodox Jewish buddy of mine and Andy was kind enough to help out with all this info as well.

I hope this answers your questions on all this and provides you with the sure knowlege that in spite of allegations to the contrary, the concept of Purgatory is indeed quite scriptural.

 

[Redbandito]

Dan,

All of the studying that I have done over the couple of weeks that I have been on here has been an extreme eye-opener to me. They have not been eye-opening to you because you are set on where you are. I am not. I am willing to go wherever the truth takes me. I will send you a mail on Purgatory and the CCC’s scriptural basis (which is weak)…you need to give me scriptural evidence that cannot be explained away through other scriptures. I have given you scriptures that SAY once saved always saved but you insist on your set of scriptures. I have already showed you how the puzzle pieces fit together. All of these scriptures complement eachother…

Craig, I think we all saw that this “willing to go wherever the truth takes me” attitude you’re trying to pull off is a bit disingenuous in the “Not by Faith Alone” thread. Anyone who doubts this should see for themselves.

Regardless, no matter what Scriptures you receive on purgatory, they will not be helpful unless you are truly open. That means that you might have to put down your antagonism and “teacher” hat for a couple of minutes and humble yourself. If you are truly interested in learning, stop trying to tell people what they believe. If not, stop being dishonest and say what you really mean. That you really are here to show us the error of our ways. Honesty would go a lot further with me than your current tactics.

Now, I pray that God may use me to open the eyes of those who are not seeing the truth now. I count this as a ministry and pray for God to help me to love as I ought - for without love, I am nothing…

And there we go. Exactly what I suspected. On the one hand you want to study and learn about Purgatory, but on the other you wan to “open our eyes” to the truth we aren’t seeing. Which is it, Craig?

May God Show You…

PS…what I have found is that people expect me to sit down and soak in everything and say, “Oh…that is what you believe…okay, I will become Catholic.” Not so.

Proverbs 14:15 KJV 15 The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

Nobody expects this Craig. That is what you expect. You expect that you can just throw out a couple of verses and we will all melt in your hands, realize the error in our ways, and abandon our Catholic faith. What we expect is that you will stop proof-texting, cut out the arrogant grandstanding, and engage the argument. Basically, I expect you to be a man of your word. If you tell me your open, act like it. You may come away disagreeing with me still, but at least we will both understand each other’s positions more. You presume to teach us where the Catholic faith is wrong, but in doing so show you do not understand the Catholic faith at all. With this in mind, maybe we can try again with a bit of intellectual honesty and humility and get somewhere.

 

[Redbandito]

**I was willing **but now unwilling. Therefore, I will change my profile. I would like to thank all of you for your help. God has used you to help me to study all the right things so that I can come to full knowledge of the truth…

We are saved on the basis of who we are, not what we do. But who we are causes us to do what we do. We are His people and we must make our calling and election sure. Even our belief is received as a gift by the grace of God (Acts 18:27). Once saved always saved…by grace through faith…a faith that works. He has ordained the end and the means and elected or chosen us from the foundation of the world according to His own plan and purpose. ALL THE MORE REASON TO GIVE GLORY TO HIM AND TO WORK FOR HIM AND LOVE HIM – BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US.

GLORY TO GOD!!!

Actually, we are not saved on either basis. We are saved on the basis of who God is. If grace is truly gratuitous, and a free gift, then God does not love us because we are who we are, but rather we are who we are BECAUSE GOD LOVES US. In other words, you don’t understand salvation, because you don’t understand grace.

 

[Redbandito]

**I was willing **but now unwilling. Therefore, I will change my profile. I would like to thank all of you for your help. God has used you to help me to study all the right things so that I can come to full knowledge of the truth…

No you weren’t Craig. From the very beginning of our previous thread, you showed your true colors. You came over here with an agenda. Which personally, is okay with me. I just find it interesting that you continue with this whole dishonest charade. In no way can dishonesty bring God glory. Therefore, who are you bringing glory to with these dishonest tactics? It’s one thing to presume to teach someone else. It’s a whole other thing to presume to teach someone else, while masquerading as “open to conversion.”

 

[mark_a]

Folks, Mr. Linkowski . . . . has evidenced in this thread that he is here to show the truth to us poor, deluded Catholics.

Smells like pride to me.

 

[scylla]

**I was willing **but now unwilling. Therefore, I will change my profile. I would like to thank all of you for your help. God has used you to help me to study all the right things so that I can come to full knowledge of the truth…

We are saved on the basis of who we are, not what we do. But who we are causes us to do what we do. We are His people and we must make our calling and election sure. Even our belief is received as a gift by the grace of God (Acts 18:27). Once saved always saved…by grace through faith…a faith that works. He has ordained the end and the means and elected or chosen us from the foundation of the world according to His own plan and purpose. ALL THE MORE REASON TO GIVE GLORY TO HIM AND TO WORK FOR HIM AND LOVE HIM – BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US.

GLORY TO GOD!!!

So have you rejected free will and now believe that we are forced by God to accept Him?
Is accepting him an action, if it is, then you believe in works as necessary to our salvation.
If it isn’t, then everyone is saved unless God only chooses certain people and the rest God condemns to Hell.
And if accepting Jesus as our savior is not an action then what is it?

What do you agree with and why?
I would contest that only Catholics believe in Salvation through Grace alone, no works, since we baptize babies, other groups would require a person personally accept Jesus, an action which is required for Salvation.

So do you see why we have a problem with the philosophy you are presenting?
We would have to throw out logic, history and even reason to consider OSAS seriously.

Please present it with some historical context, logical sense and a reasonable explanation and possibly Catholics would consider it has a basis of consideration.

But just insisting that we are wrong and that God open our eyes is no basis for faith, heck I might as well follow Jim Jones if all that is needed is faith in an interpretation of the Bible.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Nita]

Hello Linkowski,

I think some of the confusion between Baptists and Catholics occurs because we use the same words but give them different meanings. The word “saved” is definitely one of them.

In Catholic thinking, being “saved” from sin means having it removed from us - we’ll be cured of it; it will be gone. (Analogy: Telling a leper he is saved from leprosy means it has been conquered in him; the desease is no longer present in him. Therefore, the sanctions against lepers no longer apply.)
Perhaps this will help you understand Purgatory. Very few of us die with sin totally eradicated from our being (jealousy, anger, lust, etc.). Yet, all of this has to be removed/purged from our minds and hearts before we can enter God’s presence. (Ps 5:4; Job 13:16; Heb 12:14; Rev 21:27).

**Please **correct me if and where I may be wrong, but in Baptist thinking, doesn’t being “saved” essentially consist in not having to suffer the condemnation/punishment (hell) due to our sins? (To use the same leper analogy: The leper is covered with a white cloth and told he can now go into the general public without rejection. He himself still has the leprosy and experiences it, but he no longer has to worry about the sanctions since his disease is not visible to others.)

There’s another VERY IMPORTANT word that we define differently - “grace”, and altho it’s intimately connected with being saved, I won’t go into that.

It sure does cause a lot of misunderstanding, conflict, and thus, hard feelings when we use the same words without realizing that we have very different meanings for them.

Nita

 

[Linkowski]

OK…we will mention purgatory here…

The scriptural basis that the CCC used for this is not applicable to Purgatory. Let us look at the first…1 Corinthians 3.

7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This is a clear description of the trying of one’s works for the purpose of rewards - and not purging of sin. What are you doing for the Lord? Are you doing works with eternal value (gold, silver, precious stones?? Or are some of your works vain (wood, hay, stubble)? I am not speaking to you but only rhetorically. This seems to be speaking of rewards in association with ministry looking at the context - planting and watering. The works are tried and those which were done for the main purpose of glorifying God will come out on the other side of the fire (so-to-speak) and the vain works will be burned up. Whatever comes out on the other side will be burned up and loss of reward will be the end. If a person is saved…they are dead to the law and sin cannot be imputed to them. They are justified before God, and in Christ.

Also…1 Peter 1:7…

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

This is clearly speaking of trials here on earth that are trying our faith and actually strengthening it so that it may be made more pure and strong. Not purgatory.

So, these are the two scriptures that I saw used in the CCC for purgatory.

Catholic Answers uses a scripture at the end of Revelation 21 to try to show the need for purgatory but this is a disastrous application.

Re 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Clearly - you have two groups here: The unjustifed and the justified.

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

The first group goes to hell/the lake of fire and those written in the Lamb’s Book of Life will enter heaven.

Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Again…the use of this scripture is not proper.

 

[Church_Militant]

Again…the use of this scripture is not proper.

According your your personal and infallible authority right?

Maybe you should carefully read posts 6 & 7.

 

[Redbandito]

OK…we will mention purgatory here…

The scriptural basis that the CCC used for this is not applicable to Purgatory. Let us look at the first…1 Corinthians 3.

7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This is a clear description of the trying of one’s works for the purpose of rewards - and not purging of sin. What are you doing for the Lord? Are you doing works with eternal value (gold, silver, precious stones?? Or are some of your works vain (wood, hay, stubble)? I am not speaking to you but only rhetorically. This seems to be speaking of rewards in association with ministry looking at the context - planting and watering. The works are tried and those which were done for the main purpose of glorifying God will come out on the other side of the fire (so-to-speak) and the vain works will be burned up. Whatever comes out on the other side will be burned up and loss of reward will be the end. If a person is saved…they are dead to the law and sin cannot be imputed to them. They are justified before God, and in Christ.

This explanation of 1 Cor 3 would actually be plausible if Paul hadn’t very clearly stated that it was salvation that was in question, and not simply rewards. Paul stated, “If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” Thus, in this verse, we see that the question is whether or not this person will be “Saved,” not whether he will receive rewards. Paul insists that this person will be saved, but that he shall have to undergo loss to “burn” off the works that were not built on the foundation of Christ Jesus. This suffering and loss by fire, is precisely what Catholics say God’s love accomplishes in preparing the human soul for purgatory. This suffering also is said, BY PAUL, to be AFTER the person has been judged in the “Day” “where every man’s work will be made manifest” (In other words, Judgment Day). Thus, this man will be judged and saved, and THEN he will suffer loss.

One thing I must say is that I am proud of you for at least addressing the verses in question. You engaged the argument. Good job. Now we can move forward.