J
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J
justasking4
Guest
What makes best sense for the way we should take it --literally or figuatively?
Does Jesus say anything about the bread He is about to give them is from heaven at the account? Does He say anything to remind them of John 6?
Depends on the church. Remember there are over 30,000 to choose from…
J
jmcrae
Guest
The infant believes everything he is told. It is only later (when he reaches the age of about 18-26 months, and becomes a toddler) that he begins to doubt things that he is told. So, we can safely assume that the child believes to the best of his ability. And since he has no sins yet, except for Original Sin, he had nothing he needs to repent of. His parents and god-parents promise to raise him in the faith, so that the first things he knows are the things of God.
St. Paul makes it absolutely clear that baptism is the Christian version of circumcision, in terms of it being the entry rite into the New Covenant (contrasting it with circumcision, which is the entry rite into the Old Covenant.)
J
justasking4
Guest
Don’t infants get baptized very quickly after birth? If so, then they fail to beleive which is essential to salvation.
Since baptism applies to both sexes how did this work for circumcision? Girls weren’t circumcised were they?
J
jmcrae
Guest
Do you think it is possible at all for infants to go to Heaven, then? Since if belief is all that matters, and you say that infants can’t believe, then they’re hooped either way - with or without the Sacraments.
They were also not members of the Covenant - notice their placement in the Temple next to the Gentiles, rather than with the believers. Christianity is actually the only major ancient religion that includes women as full members.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
which endures to eternal life"?
If you have access to a NT Greek lexicon how does it define the word?You tell me if you know.
Why would Our Lord have to? The apostles already had accepted that he was speaking literally when He said, [53] So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
[54] he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
[55] For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
[56] He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
Again, why would it have to be?
Accepted. (A little strange, but I can certainly understand.)
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Yes x 2.
I disagree, and I know you expected that.
Consider that God Himself established circumcision as the means of salvation and in that context the child did not have to profess faith but his family did on his behalf.
Consider also that in the Martyrdom of Polycarp Polycarp outright tells the Roman Proconsul that he’s 86 years old and has been a Christian for 86 years, which unless my math skills are REALLY bad means that the man (who was a close friend and disciple of St. John the Evangelist) was infant baptized…probably by St. John himself.
E
EphelDuath
Guest
For people of the age that require a confession of beliefs first. Peter clearly baptized children, and Jesus talked about how the children would inherit the Kingdom.
G
guanophore
Guest
As in all the Sacraments, they symbolize (represent) that which they also contain. The fact that they are symbolic does not detract from the Power of God’s Presence truly present in each one.
G
guanophore
Guest
Are you really so small minded that you need to take this passage in isolation from all the others on salvation?
Are you so small minded that you think the it is possible to “go beyond Christ” to do ANYTHING?
I can’t believe that!
I think this is just more anticatholic slander. How did you come to be so full of venom and prejudice against Cathocism? Were you abused by a priest, or were you reared in a family full of bigotry?
G
guanophore
Guest
Sure! Just not “most” and “most” was written by those who were not. The reason the accounts are accepted is because they faithfully represent Sacred Tradition.
P
Pax
Guest
The apostles are already aware from John 6 that Jesus is the bread come down from heaven and that he will give himself to them as true food and drink. The passover meal at the Last Supper and Jesus words simply bring it altogether for them.
The passover is mentioned in John 6:4 where it says:
“Now the Passover, the feast of the Jews, was at hand.”
I hope this helps.
G
guanophore
Guest
Thanks!
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
Of course it depends on the context, but it could mean recalcitrance, derision or aversion…depends on the use.
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
Of course most of it was written by Paul, who Jesus appeared to and Peter himself declared Paul to have written the truth and also declared his writings to be Scripture.
T
Tim_Kirchoff
Guest
What authority does Peter have?
G
guanophore
Guest
No, that would be wrong for him. Since he does not discern the Body, for him, it would be idolatry. No unbeliever should be invited anyway.My friend let me challenge you to find a parish near you that has Eucharistic Adoration and just go. They don’t check Catholic IDs at the door and there’s no secret Vatican handshake or anything, but take your Bible and just go and experience it for yourself. Just sit and read the Word of God while there and see if the Holy Spirit doesn’t move in you. I think you’ll find it one of the best times you have ever spent before the Lord. (Even if you reject the Real Presence…remember too that where two or three are gathered in His name…)
Personally I love it!
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
It would only be fair to show what the lie is if you are going to say I lied…
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
During the Eucharist, Roman Catholics want to believe that the actual body of Jesus is what is being eaten and the wine in the cup is actually His blood. Of course this is not to be taken literally. How could Jesus, still present in His own body, say that bread and wine were His body and blood? Jesus told them to commemorate His sacrifice and New Covenant by using the bread and wine as symbols of His body and blood.
This concept did not originate with the Last Supper as Jews had been celebrating Passover for thousands of years in the same manner. The unleavened bread was a symbol of the bread that did not have time to rise, because their haste in getting away from Pharaoh in their flight from Egypt.
During the Passover meal, Jews use Matzahs in a certain form, striped and pierced, which is designed to represent Jesus, as prophesied by Isaiah. After the meal, the “buried” matzah is “resurrected”, which was foretold in the prophecies.
It was during this meal that Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. (John 6:53-56)
If you read this verse out of context, it seems that Roman Catholics have a good point that Jesus indicated that you must eat His body and blood. However, Scripture reveals a different meaning when the entire chapter is read in context. Let’s look at John 6 to determine what is truly meant.
The feeding of the 5,000 with bread and fish starts this chapter. It is no coincidence that this event which takes place at the beginning of the chapter is referenced again at the point that Jesus declares Himself to be the bread of life. The crown that had been fed real bread at the beginning of the chapter were back to get another free handout. Jesus said:
"I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. (John 6:26)
The Rabbis had quoted Psalms 72:16 to prove that the Messiah, when he came, could outdo Moses with manna from heaven. Jesus, claiming to be the Messiah, offered to give bread for eternal life. (John 6:27) The crowd then asked Jesus,* “What must we do to do the works God requires?” (John 6:28)* Jesus’ answer was:
"The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." (John 6:29)
He mentioned believing only, not eating.
Then they discussed a miraculous sign and the manna God had given them in the desert (a reference to what the rabbis had said about the Messiah). **Jesus declared Himself to be the true bread out of heaven (John 6:32-33). **The Jews asked for this bread, demonstrating that they did not understand that Jesus was giving them an earthly metaphor for a spiritual truth. Jesus’ response was to define the metaphor:
"I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. (John 6:35)
This statement of Jesus makes it clear that he is NOT referring to physical bread. All who eat physical bread will hunger again. Jesus is declaring Himself to be spiritual bread. Those who “eat” of the spiritual bread by believing in Him will not hunger again. Jesus has clearly defined the “eating” of Himself as “He who comes to me” and the drinking of Himself as **"He who believes in me”. **In this verse, Jesus has defined the entire metaphor as being a symbolic representation of spiritual truth. One can find other examples of “eating” and “drinking” from Jesus’ other sermons.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. (Matthew 5:6)
If anyone believes in Jesus, his spiritual hunger will be satisfied. The Eucharist cannot satisfy one’s physical hunger. Neither can it satisfy one’s spiritual hunger. This hunger can only be satisfied by the living bread (John 6:51),** which is the living Lord Himself**.
After John 6:35, Jesus again makes the claim that they must believe in Him:
But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. (John 6:36)
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:40)
Four times Jesus told the unbelievers they must believe in Him, yet they still don’t get it! The Jews started complaining again that Jesus claimed to be bread from heaven (John 6:42-43).
Obviously, real bread does not come from heaven. It comes from grain grown on the earth. Jesus could only be referring to spiritual bread. The analogy is quite clear that Jesus is the spiritual bread from heaven that gives spiritual (eternal) life. Physical bread gives physical life. Spiritual bread gives spiritual life. Jesus talked twice more about believing in Him:
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44)
(cont’d)
This concept did not originate with the Last Supper as Jews had been celebrating Passover for thousands of years in the same manner. The unleavened bread was a symbol of the bread that did not have time to rise, because their haste in getting away from Pharaoh in their flight from Egypt.
During the Passover meal, Jews use Matzahs in a certain form, striped and pierced, which is designed to represent Jesus, as prophesied by Isaiah. After the meal, the “buried” matzah is “resurrected”, which was foretold in the prophecies.
It was during this meal that Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. (John 6:53-56)
If you read this verse out of context, it seems that Roman Catholics have a good point that Jesus indicated that you must eat His body and blood. However, Scripture reveals a different meaning when the entire chapter is read in context. Let’s look at John 6 to determine what is truly meant.
The feeding of the 5,000 with bread and fish starts this chapter. It is no coincidence that this event which takes place at the beginning of the chapter is referenced again at the point that Jesus declares Himself to be the bread of life. The crown that had been fed real bread at the beginning of the chapter were back to get another free handout. Jesus said:
"I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. (John 6:26)
The Rabbis had quoted Psalms 72:16 to prove that the Messiah, when he came, could outdo Moses with manna from heaven. Jesus, claiming to be the Messiah, offered to give bread for eternal life. (John 6:27) The crowd then asked Jesus,* “What must we do to do the works God requires?” (John 6:28)* Jesus’ answer was:
"The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." (John 6:29)
He mentioned believing only, not eating.
Then they discussed a miraculous sign and the manna God had given them in the desert (a reference to what the rabbis had said about the Messiah). **Jesus declared Himself to be the true bread out of heaven (John 6:32-33). **The Jews asked for this bread, demonstrating that they did not understand that Jesus was giving them an earthly metaphor for a spiritual truth. Jesus’ response was to define the metaphor:
"I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. (John 6:35)
This statement of Jesus makes it clear that he is NOT referring to physical bread. All who eat physical bread will hunger again. Jesus is declaring Himself to be spiritual bread. Those who “eat” of the spiritual bread by believing in Him will not hunger again. Jesus has clearly defined the “eating” of Himself as “He who comes to me” and the drinking of Himself as **"He who believes in me”. **In this verse, Jesus has defined the entire metaphor as being a symbolic representation of spiritual truth. One can find other examples of “eating” and “drinking” from Jesus’ other sermons.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. (Matthew 5:6)
If anyone believes in Jesus, his spiritual hunger will be satisfied. The Eucharist cannot satisfy one’s physical hunger. Neither can it satisfy one’s spiritual hunger. This hunger can only be satisfied by the living bread (John 6:51),** which is the living Lord Himself**.
After John 6:35, Jesus again makes the claim that they must believe in Him:
But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. (John 6:36)
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:40)
Four times Jesus told the unbelievers they must believe in Him, yet they still don’t get it! The Jews started complaining again that Jesus claimed to be bread from heaven (John 6:42-43).
Obviously, real bread does not come from heaven. It comes from grain grown on the earth. Jesus could only be referring to spiritual bread. The analogy is quite clear that Jesus is the spiritual bread from heaven that gives spiritual (eternal) life. Physical bread gives physical life. Spiritual bread gives spiritual life. Jesus talked twice more about believing in Him:
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44)
(cont’d)
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
(cont’d)
I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. I am the bread of life. (John 6:47-48)
Jesus clearly states that those who believe have everlasting life and that He is the “bread” that gives that life. It has nothing to do with the Eucharist and nothing to do with eating. It is an earthly example comparing physical bread for physical life with heavenly bread(Jesus Himself) for eternal life. The symbolism is quite clear.
Your forefathers ate the manna [physical bread] in the desert, yet they died. (John 6:49)
But here is the bread that comes down from heaven [spiritual bread - Jesus], which a man may eat and not die. (John 6:50)
If you eat the Eucharist, you will still die. It is only by belief that one will live forever. However, if you ”eat” the Bread of Life, you will live forever:
I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." (John 6:51)
Jesus was speaking of spiritual truths and not physical ones.
I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. I am the bread of life. (John 6:47-48)
Jesus clearly states that those who believe have everlasting life and that He is the “bread” that gives that life. It has nothing to do with the Eucharist and nothing to do with eating. It is an earthly example comparing physical bread for physical life with heavenly bread(Jesus Himself) for eternal life. The symbolism is quite clear.
Your forefathers ate the manna [physical bread] in the desert, yet they died. (John 6:49)
But here is the bread that comes down from heaven [spiritual bread - Jesus], which a man may eat and not die. (John 6:50)
If you eat the Eucharist, you will still die. It is only by belief that one will live forever. However, if you ”eat” the Bread of Life, you will live forever:
I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." (John 6:51)
Jesus was speaking of spiritual truths and not physical ones.
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