SPLIT: Questions Catholics Will Not Answer.

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It may have a great wealth of knowledge but not all of it is grounded in the Scriptures. How does a catholic know if they are interpreting the scriptures in harmony with the past 2000 years of church history?
None of it is “grounded” in the scriptures. All of it is grounded in the Teachings of Jesus and the Apostles, some of which is reflected in the NT. A Catholic knows they must interpret within the Teachings, and that creates harmony.
Secondly if your church always taught consistently for the past 2000 years why was a catholic reformantion needed during the reformation period?
Reformation relates to the awful behavior if impious clerics and disciplines. Jesus did not teach people to behave badly. Jesus put the Church in charge of disciplines (practices) with need updating from time to time.
How many catholics do you know that don’t even agree with Rome on everything?
Far too many. The truth is that they are not really Catholic. To be Catholic, one must be in union. Therefore, they are Protestants and do not realize it until they usually get evangelized by a Protestant.
Can you give me a couple of examples from the lips of Jesus where He based His teachings on tradition?
Matt 23:2-3
The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you

I have to leave here soon, so will have to get back to this. You might want to start a new thread on this, since it is going to be closed soon.
 
though the early fathers may have lived closer in time to the apostles does not automatically mean they are right. Do you know how these fathers were trained for example?
In the same way the Apostles were trained.
I agree this should be taught more in our churches. Would you agree also that not only protestants but catholics are ignorant of church history?[/yes]
justasking4;3246014:
i’ve been listening to an excellent course on church history via a podcast on Itunes. Its a seminary course and i have learned so much by listening to it. i highly recommend it. Its from Reformed Theological Seminary. Its not anti catholic but an attempt to understand it well. It would be great for those who don’t like to read.
Good for you! 👍
I am proud of you. Post the link, and I will listen too.
It is not necessary for our doctrines to match what a given father taught since they were mere men and their writings are not considered scripture.
Isnt’ it curious, though, that the Fathers taught what the Apostles taught, and it is still what is taught in the Orthodox communion?
For example: is it not true that Augustine promoted celibacy for church leaders? If this is correct, this would go against the clear teaching of Scripture that leaders were to be married with children.
There is no rule in the Catholic Church that leaders must be celibate. Scripture does not require this, an Augustine did not promote it either. This probably needs it’s own thread.
What do you think? Who should we follow?
Benedict the Sixteenth, who represents Christ.
Do you think the theologians and scholars of today have a superior advantage over the fathers?
Maybe in science and technology.
 
Matt 23:2-3
The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you

I have to leave here soon, so will have to get back to this. You might want to start a new thread on this, since it is going to be closed soon.
Mose’s seat has it’s roots in the OT.
 
i checked my lexicon on how this word is used in this passage and i didn’t find any reference to it being defined with sin in mind.
Quite right. Jesus makes it clear that we will be judged by all our deeds, and rewarded accordingly.
So much needs to be discussed here but i will be brief. One thing that follows from this then is that no catholic needs to fear purgatory for no more than a very short time if catholics are praying this.
Certainly not! Purgatory is a great grace, a state in which we are purified of any “weight and sin that clings” so that we can be pure as the remainder of the Holy Bride in heaven.
Secondly the catholics i know were totally unaware of this including a priest i know. Why isn’t this brought up more (assuming its not)?
There is a lot of failure in catechesis in the Church.
You know by now what i must ask: where does the NT teach that
“the giving of alms as a penance can be applied to the souls in purgatory”?
There is a purgatory thread that might be better suited to this. The Church has a 'treasury of merit" that can be benefitted by the deposits of the just, and drafted from by those that fall short.

James 5:20
20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Good deeds focused on salvation can cover a multitude of sins.
It seems to me they may have corrected the “sales pitch” but not the core doctrine as far as i can tell.
👍 That’s because there is nothing wrong with praying for other people!
 
“Moses seat” is nowhere mentioned in the OT… is was known outside the writings of the OT = Tradition.

.
Exodus 18:13 says: “The next day Moses took his seat to serve as judge for the people, and they stood around him from morning till evening.”

Moses did this to decide between “disputes” among the people (v. 16). At the suggestion of his father-in-law Moses also appointed others to “serve as judges” (v. 26) and thereby to sit in Moses seat to govern the people.
 
I think history and doctrine show otherwise. Just comparing some of your doctrines with scripture would show that the claim cannot be sustained.
Fortunately, scriptures only reflect Catholic doctrine, so that there is no contradiction!
Why would the ECF’s be part of the standard since not all the fathers agreed?
Because all who are in agreement with the Teaching of Jesus are part of that standard. To whatever extent they taught what the Apostles taught, they are meeting the standard.
Who is to say they speak for the entire church at any given time?
The fathers give us a very good window into the thinking and times in which they are written.
Do you think the gospel message i.e. how one is saved is flawed by the protestants? If so, where does it fall short?
Completely. More so in some sects than others, but all fall short of what Jesus taught. This is too big a subject to get into on a thread that is about to close. We should start a new one!
I think you have it half right. It is true that because the Scriptures alone are the only inspired-inerrant word given to us, then it follows that it carries far more athority than anything else.
You would be right if this were true. Fortunately, it is not. THanks be to God He did not limit Himself to a book.
This makes them a solid and sure foundation in which to build doctrine. Nothing can be more sure than this. It is also true that all believers are to know it well.
You are right, of course, but doctrine is not built by the book - only people.
This certainly implies that we can understand what we read.
The Word of Christ at that time was not written. They are speaking of the Oral Tradition. This is an example of what you asked for previously.
The creation of doctrine is another matter. Individuals themselves don’t fomulate doctrines on their own but rather its a body of knowledgeable believers coming to together to do that.
I am glad we found something else to agree on! 👍
 
Exodus 18:13 says: “The next day Moses took his seat to serve as judge for the people, and they stood around him from morning till evening.”

Moses did this to decide between “disputes” among the people (v. 16). At the suggestion of his father-in-law Moses also appointed others to “serve as judges” (v. 26) and thereby to sit in Moses seat to govern the people.
11 Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods, because he delivered the people from under the hand of the Egyptians, when they dealt arrogantly with them." 12 And Jethro, Moses’ father-in-law, offered a burnt offering and sacrifices to God; and Aaron came with all the elders of Israel to eat bread with Moses’ father-in-law before God. 13 On the morrow Moses sat to judge the people, and the people stood about Moses from morning till evening. 14 When Moses’ father-in-law saw all that he was doing for the people, he said, “What is this that you are doing for the people? Why do you sit alone, and all the people stand about you from morning till evening?” 15 And Moses said to his father-in-law, “Because the people come to me to inquire of God; 16 when they have a dispute, they come to me and I decide between a man and his neighbor, and I make them know the statutes of God and his decisions.”

yes it refers to the authority of Moses, but not to the authority of his successors who inherit that seat. Jesus used “seat of Moses” as the precurser to the “seat of Peter”
 
11 Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods, because he delivered the people from under the hand of the Egyptians, when they dealt arrogantly with them." 12 And Jethro, Moses’ father-in-law, offered a burnt offering and sacrifices to God; and Aaron came with all the elders of Israel to eat bread with Moses’ father-in-law before God. 13 On the morrow Moses sat to judge the people, and the people stood about Moses from morning till evening. 14 When Moses’ father-in-law saw all that he was doing for the people, he said, “What is this that you are doing for the people? Why do you sit alone, and all the people stand about you from morning till evening?” 15 And Moses said to his father-in-law, “Because the people come to me to inquire of God; 16 when they have a dispute, they come to me and I decide between a man and his neighbor, and I make them know the statutes of God and his decisions.”

yes it refers to the authority of Moses, but not to the authority of his successors who inherit that seat. Jesus used “seat of Moses” as the precurser to the “seat of Peter”
I did say the ROOTS were found in the OT, I didn’t say the details.

Didn’t the early church see the seat of Peter as being held by all the bishops and not just the bishop of Rome?
 
I did say the ROOTS were found in the OT, I didn’t say the details.

Didn’t the early church see the seat of Peter as being held by all the bishops and not just the bishop of Rome?
Depends on who you talk to.

The EO would say they spoke of the PRIMACY of Peter, and even quote things like Peter was the leader of the leaders, but say that the Catholic Church teaches a SUPREMACY.

Not sure how one can be a “leader of leaders” but not be in charge:shrug:
 
Depends on who you talk to.

The EO would say they spoke of the PRIMACY of Peter, and even quote things like Peter was the leader of the leaders, but say that the Catholic Church teaches a SUPREMACY.

Not sure how one can be a “leader of leaders” but not be in charge:shrug:
I’m not trying to debate this but am honestly asking a question. From the little I’ve read on the subject there is some basis for the belief that at one time the chair of Peter was held by all the bishops, not just the bishop of Rome.

Seeing Peter as the leader of the apostles is a far cry from believing all of Peter’s successors have primacy.
 
What would be the criteria you would use to show that a doctrine is false?
How about if Jesus and His apostles did not teach it, its false?
The very same criteria you guys would use to prove that Sola Scriptura is valid.
 
SOMEBODY has to be in charge, otherwise we would live in religious anarchy…can you imagine that chaos that would exist in today’s religious world without one focal leader?
 
I’m not trying to debate this but am honestly asking a question. From the little I’ve read on the subject there is some basis for the belief that at one time the chair of Peter was held by all the bishops, not just the bishop of Rome.
And I was honestly trying to answer the question giving you arguments from both the EO and the Catholic:)

There are lots of writings from the Early Church Fathers. I have occassionally participated in them in the Eastern forums. Yet every quote brought up, they see as supporting a “First among equals” yet I read it and say that Peter was in charge, as Catholics contend.

Things like, Peter was the leader of the Choir of the apostles. They say this shows first among equals, and I say a leader is just that a leader. One can have all who speak with authority, as the apostles did, yet still have someone who is in charge of those who speak with authority.

This is a truly complex subject. A new thread would probably be in order since there are only about 40 or so posts that can happen in this one:)
 
I’m not trying to debate this but am honestly asking a question. From the little I’ve read on the subject there is some basis for the belief that at one time the chair of Peter was held by all the bishops, not just the bishop of Rome.

Seeing Peter as the leader of the apostles is a far cry from believing all of Peter’s successors have primacy.
Does it make sense for there not to be a central authority for Christ’s Church? To me, I can’t see Christianity being a democracy. Something’s either 100% truth or it isn’t. A vote can’t determine that.

Just my opinion on the matter.

Pace e Bene
Andrew
 
Does it make sense for there not to be a central authority for Christ’s Church? To me, I can’t see Christianity being a democracy. Something’s either 100% truth or it isn’t. A vote can’t determine that.

Just my opinion on the matter.

Pace e Bene
Andrew
I am going to ask this question on another thread. Another poster insinuated that a thread is cut off at 1,000 posts and this one is getting close to that now.
 
**This is what i think of when thinking of Sola Scriptura:
Sola scriptura teaches that the Scriptures are the sole infallible **rule of faith for the Church. The doctrine does not say that there are not other, fallible, rules of faith, or even traditions, that we can refer to and even embrace. It does say, however, that the only infallible rule of faith is Scripture. This means that all other rules, whether we call them traditions, confessions of faith, creeds, or anything else, are by nature inferior to and subject to correction by, the Scriptures. The Bible is an ultimate authority, allowing no equal, nor superior, in tradition or church. It is so because it is theopneustos, God-breathed, and hence embodies the very speaking of God, and must, of necessity therefore be of the highest authority.
Interesting thought JA4 - where did you get this thought - is it published in the bible or in Protestant study aids?
Can you show us in scripture where it mentions anything like “sola scriptura” and where it literally says scripture is the sole infallible rule of faith in those so few words? Please compare and contrast that in light of the following scripture verse that directly contradicts that and explain how its is infallible.
various scriptures supporting a combo of scriture:
The Bible actually denies that it is the complete rule of faith. John tells us that not everything concerning Christ’s work is in Scripture (John 21:25), and Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition which is handed down by word of mouth (2 Tim. 2 2). He instructs us to “stand fast, and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle” (2 Thess. 2 15).
We are told that the first Christians “were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles” (Acts 2 42)
Also noteworthy is that doctrine of Trent and Vatican I, had resolved that tradition was more extensive than Scripture.

Pope John XXIII commissioned an in depth study of this topic in 1963 and went far back into early church history to resolve it definitely. The Pope published Dei Verbum (Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation Second Vatican Council)
. Vatican II explained the relationship between Tradition and Scripture this way:
Die Verbum - extract:
"**Hence there exist a close connection and communication between sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture. For both of them, flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge into a unity and tend toward the same end. **For sacred Scripture is the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine Spirit. To the successors of the apostles, sacred Tradition hands on in its full purity God’s word, which was entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit.

“Thus, by the light of the Spirit of truth, these successors can in their preaching preserve this word of God faithfully, explain it, and make it more widely know. Consequently it is not from sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same devotion and reverence.”
Do you know of a single protestant study conducted that is anywhere near the scope of Dei Verbum that has even a fraction of the pedigree or scholarship as was conducted in VII? For that matter where is “protestant” scholarship headquartered and who checks their qualifications. Do they operate out of their home offices and personal libraries or network ecumenically at conferences over coffee and donuts? Do you have any idea how HUGE the Catholic reference libraries are and how extensive The Catholic Church’s educational and archives are? Do you know how many Catholic colleges, high schools, convents, libraries, and other facilities The Church has at her disposal world wide? Do you think any self taught person is qualified to interpret scripture and ECF teaching to even the same order of magnitude as the Catholic Church?

Consider that the earliest Christians had no New Testament to appeal to; they learned from oral, not written, instruction. Until relatively recent times, the Bible was inaccessible to most people, either because they could not read or because printing had not yet been invented. All these people learned from oral instruction, passed down, generation to generation, by the Church. When did the concept of sola scripture even come along - in the 1500s? Did Christ fail in his mission for those who believed in the Catholic Church till then?

Much can be said about 2 Timothy 3:15. To say that all inspired writing “has its uses” is one thing; to say that such a remark means that only inspired writing need be followed is something else. Besides, there is a telling argument against claims of “Bible Christians.” It is the contradiction that arises out of their own interpretation of this verse. John Henry Newman explained it in an essay, written in 1884, titled Inspiration in its Relation to Revelation. You might want to read it here:
Defending The Faith

Please try to answer all these questions since a lot of us have been patiently answering all yours.

God Bless,
James
 
I’m not trying to debate this but am honestly asking a question. From the little I’ve read on the subject there is some basis for the belief that at one time the chair of Peter was held by all the bishops, not just the bishop of Rome.

Seeing Peter as the leader of the apostles is a far cry from believing all of Peter’s successors have primacy.
Let me try to answer:
We know that this is not true from actual fact and tradition. The papal succession list clearly shows a papal succession all the way back to Peter. We do not have at hand evidence for Linus (see the other thread on 2nd pope) but its clear that if the Bishops were not in accord with this tradition and account that they would have not cooperated to elect successive popes for many centuries since Peter. We had a few scandals here and there but The Church through her Bishops and Cardinals always came together to appoint a new pope. Each time a new pope was appointed that was essentially a re-ratification by the Bishops of the concept of one head of the church (Vicar/Pope); or they never would have settled on a pope.

Do you have any evidence prior to Luther’s rebellion that shows at anytime in the early history of The Church that a majority or even more than a few bishops protested and challenged the papacy as being unauthorized? I am no expert here but I think no significant challenge comes till Luther comes along 1500 years after the tradition was well established and some bishops fell into that heresy.

Don’t you think that if there was a challenge to the papacy concept that it might have come out before the first 1500 years or so? The Greek schism does not count since that was a split under an assumption of an existing papal leadership structure that was more territorial and petty bickering over breaches in protocol.

James
 
SOMEBODY has to be in charge, otherwise we would live in religious anarchy…can you imagine that chaos that would exist in today’s religious world without one focal leader?


Sadly, indeed I can - its the contagious borg of protestantism!

I just can’t imagine it can stay together too much longer as it fractures and refractures into a huge smorgasbord of “buy what you want to hear”. The only thing that seems to keeps them going doctrinally is to rally around any new idea, buzz “save phrase” or cannon somone comes up with in their study groups that is opposite to Catholicism.

We Catholics need to turn up the intensity on our prayers for them to convert to Catholicism before God starts pulling weeds and lighting the bon fire.

James
 
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