J
justasking4
Guest
Is it not true that Mary supposed assumption into heaven is not in Scripture and is unknown for centuries?
- Status
Is it not true that Mary supposed assumption into heaven is not in Scripture and is unknown for centuries?
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
MariaG
If you believe Elijah and Enoch were taken to heaven, let me give you a little information.
I will begin with Elijah and see what the Scriptures say “really” happened to him. Reading the following Scriptures will give us a very good indication that Elijah was sent all over the world as they knew it then:
1Kings18:7 And as Obadiah was in the way, behold, Elijah met him: and he knew him, and fell on his face, and said, Art thou that my lord Elijah? 8 And he answered him, I am: go, tell thy lord, Behold, Elijah is here. 9 And he said, What have I sinned, that thou wouldest deliver thy servant into the hand of Ahab, to slay me? 10 As the LORD thy God liveth, there is no nation or kingdom, whither my lord hath not sent to seek thee: and when they said, He is not there; he took an oath of the kingdom and nation, that they found thee not. 11 And now thou sayest, Go, tell thy lord, Behold, Elijah is here. 12 And it shall come to pass, as soon as I am gone from thee, that the Spirit of the LORD shall carry thee whither I know not; and so when I come and tell Ahab, and he cannot find thee, he shall slay me: but I thy servant fear the LORD from my youth. 13 Was it not told my lord what I did when Jezebel slew the prophets of the LORD, how I hid an hundred men of the LORD’S prophets by fifty in a cave, and fed them with bread and water? 14 And now thou sayest, Go, tell thy lord, Behold, Elijah is here: and he shall slay me. 15 And Elijah said, As the LORD of hosts liveth, before whom I stand, I will surely shew myself unto him to day. 16 So Obadiah went to meet Ahab, and told him: and Ahab went to meet Elijah. 17 And it came to pass, when Ahab saw Elijah, that Ahab said unto him, Art thou he that troubleth Israel?
If one reads this very carefully, he will find that Elijah had been “translated” many times before to many places. Verse 10 says:” …there is no nation or kingdom, whither my Lord hath not sent to seek thee: and when they said, He is not there;”
As Elijah’s enemies sought him to slay him, they went to where Elijah had been reported seen, yet they could never find him. It is apparent he had a habit of “disappearing” and it was well known among the people of God that the Lord did this……take Elijah to another place. Read verse 12 again.
*II Kings 2:12 And it shall come to pass, as soon as I am gone from thee, **that the Spirit of the LORD shall carry thee whither I know not; ***and so when I come and tell Ahab, and he cannot find thee, he shall slay me: but I thy servant fear the LORD from my youth.
Many read this passage and believe it is a prophecy of Elijah being taken to heaven. But that is not what this passage says. If this had been a prophecy and from God, then Elijah would have been taken away before Obadiah had brought King Ahab to meet him. The verse clearly says, **“as soon as I am gone from thee.” ** Look closer at these verses:
Obadiah understood that Elijah was always “taken away” whenever his life might be in danger. When the king’s men came to get him, God took him up and away from the imminent danger, in order that he would not see his own death. Elijah would appear in some other city until he wore out his welcome again and this knowledge was widespread among God’s children.
Look again at II Kings 2:1
*“And it came to pass, **when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, ***that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. 2) And Elijah said unto Elisha, Tarry here, I pray thee; for the Lord hath sent me to Bethel. And Elisha said unto him, as the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they went down to Bethel. 3) And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Lord will take away thy master from they head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.”
These people knew what was going to happen before it had happened before. This time would be different because Elijah’s ministry was coming to a close. There were many who still wanted to take his life. They also knew Elisha’s “Master” would be taken from him, and he would no longer be just Elijah’s servant but the prophet of the Lord.
(cont’d)
If you believe Elijah and Enoch were taken to heaven, let me give you a little information.
I will begin with Elijah and see what the Scriptures say “really” happened to him. Reading the following Scriptures will give us a very good indication that Elijah was sent all over the world as they knew it then:
1Kings18:7 And as Obadiah was in the way, behold, Elijah met him: and he knew him, and fell on his face, and said, Art thou that my lord Elijah? 8 And he answered him, I am: go, tell thy lord, Behold, Elijah is here. 9 And he said, What have I sinned, that thou wouldest deliver thy servant into the hand of Ahab, to slay me? 10 As the LORD thy God liveth, there is no nation or kingdom, whither my lord hath not sent to seek thee: and when they said, He is not there; he took an oath of the kingdom and nation, that they found thee not. 11 And now thou sayest, Go, tell thy lord, Behold, Elijah is here. 12 And it shall come to pass, as soon as I am gone from thee, that the Spirit of the LORD shall carry thee whither I know not; and so when I come and tell Ahab, and he cannot find thee, he shall slay me: but I thy servant fear the LORD from my youth. 13 Was it not told my lord what I did when Jezebel slew the prophets of the LORD, how I hid an hundred men of the LORD’S prophets by fifty in a cave, and fed them with bread and water? 14 And now thou sayest, Go, tell thy lord, Behold, Elijah is here: and he shall slay me. 15 And Elijah said, As the LORD of hosts liveth, before whom I stand, I will surely shew myself unto him to day. 16 So Obadiah went to meet Ahab, and told him: and Ahab went to meet Elijah. 17 And it came to pass, when Ahab saw Elijah, that Ahab said unto him, Art thou he that troubleth Israel?
If one reads this very carefully, he will find that Elijah had been “translated” many times before to many places. Verse 10 says:” …there is no nation or kingdom, whither my Lord hath not sent to seek thee: and when they said, He is not there;”
As Elijah’s enemies sought him to slay him, they went to where Elijah had been reported seen, yet they could never find him. It is apparent he had a habit of “disappearing” and it was well known among the people of God that the Lord did this……take Elijah to another place. Read verse 12 again.
*II Kings 2:12 And it shall come to pass, as soon as I am gone from thee, **that the Spirit of the LORD shall carry thee whither I know not; ***and so when I come and tell Ahab, and he cannot find thee, he shall slay me: but I thy servant fear the LORD from my youth.
Many read this passage and believe it is a prophecy of Elijah being taken to heaven. But that is not what this passage says. If this had been a prophecy and from God, then Elijah would have been taken away before Obadiah had brought King Ahab to meet him. The verse clearly says, **“as soon as I am gone from thee.” ** Look closer at these verses:
- I Kings 18:16 So Obadiah went to meet Ahab, and told him: and Ahab went to meet Elijah. 17 And it came to pass, when Ahab saw Elijah, that Ahab said unto him, Art thou he that troubleth Israel?*
Obadiah understood that Elijah was always “taken away” whenever his life might be in danger. When the king’s men came to get him, God took him up and away from the imminent danger, in order that he would not see his own death. Elijah would appear in some other city until he wore out his welcome again and this knowledge was widespread among God’s children.
Look again at II Kings 2:1
*“And it came to pass, **when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, ***that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. 2) And Elijah said unto Elisha, Tarry here, I pray thee; for the Lord hath sent me to Bethel. And Elisha said unto him, as the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they went down to Bethel. 3) And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Lord will take away thy master from they head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.”
These people knew what was going to happen before it had happened before. This time would be different because Elijah’s ministry was coming to a close. There were many who still wanted to take his life. They also knew Elisha’s “Master” would be taken from him, and he would no longer be just Elijah’s servant but the prophet of the Lord.
(cont’d)
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
(cont’d) from previous post
Look again at II Kings 2:4
And Elijah said unto him, Elisha, tarry here, I pray thee; for the LORD hath sent me to Jericho. And he said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they came to Jericho. 5 And the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho came to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he answered, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace. 6 And Elijah said unto him, Tarry, I pray thee, here; for the LORD hath sent me to Jordan. And he said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. And they two went on. 7 And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood to view afar off: and they two stood by Jordan.
Now if we all understand that so far, then we should continue:
II* Kings 2:9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee.* And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. 10 And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.
Elijah knew he would soon be gone and he would be leaving the servitude of God to Elisha as His prophet.
*II Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, **there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. ***12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.
This is where Elijah was “taken away” to heaven. But was this the third heaven, the place of God’s throne? In John 3:13 we are told that: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. Elijah was taken up into the air, the atmosphere, but where was he taken? We can also find that.
*II Kings 2:16 And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the LORD hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send. 17 And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send. They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not. 18 And when they came again to him, (for he tarried at Jericho,) he said unto them, Did I not say unto you, Go not? *
We see here that the people spent **three days looking throughout the countryside trying to find a man who was not even supposed to be on earth. ** Why would they look for him on earth if they knew he had been taken to heaven? **They knew he was “transported” again from one earthly location to another because it was common for him to have been transported that way before. ** They didn’t know where he was but they knew he was on earth.
This is further proven by the fact that seven years later we find Elijah still on earth and writing a letter to the King of Judah, Jehoram.
II Chronicles 21:12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah
This shows that Elijah continued to live on earth. We don’t know when he died, or where he is buried.
Josephus Antiquities Of The Jews 9:2:2 " Now at this time it was that Elijah disappeared from among men, and no one knows of his death to this very day; but he left behind him his disciple Elisha, as we have formerly declared. And indeed, as to Elijah, and as to Enoch, who was before the Deluge,** it is written in the sacred books that they disappeared; but so nobody knew that they died." **
(cont’d)
Look again at II Kings 2:4
And Elijah said unto him, Elisha, tarry here, I pray thee; for the LORD hath sent me to Jericho. And he said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they came to Jericho. 5 And the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho came to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he answered, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace. 6 And Elijah said unto him, Tarry, I pray thee, here; for the LORD hath sent me to Jordan. And he said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. And they two went on. 7 And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood to view afar off: and they two stood by Jordan.
Now if we all understand that so far, then we should continue:
II* Kings 2:9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee.* And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. 10 And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.
Elijah knew he would soon be gone and he would be leaving the servitude of God to Elisha as His prophet.
*II Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, **there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. ***12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.
This is where Elijah was “taken away” to heaven. But was this the third heaven, the place of God’s throne? In John 3:13 we are told that: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. Elijah was taken up into the air, the atmosphere, but where was he taken? We can also find that.
*II Kings 2:16 And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the LORD hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send. 17 And when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, Send. They sent therefore fifty men; and they sought three days, but found him not. 18 And when they came again to him, (for he tarried at Jericho,) he said unto them, Did I not say unto you, Go not? *
We see here that the people spent **three days looking throughout the countryside trying to find a man who was not even supposed to be on earth. ** Why would they look for him on earth if they knew he had been taken to heaven? **They knew he was “transported” again from one earthly location to another because it was common for him to have been transported that way before. ** They didn’t know where he was but they knew he was on earth.
This is further proven by the fact that seven years later we find Elijah still on earth and writing a letter to the King of Judah, Jehoram.
II Chronicles 21:12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah
This shows that Elijah continued to live on earth. We don’t know when he died, or where he is buried.
Josephus Antiquities Of The Jews 9:2:2 " Now at this time it was that Elijah disappeared from among men, and no one knows of his death to this very day; but he left behind him his disciple Elisha, as we have formerly declared. And indeed, as to Elijah, and as to Enoch, who was before the Deluge,** it is written in the sacred books that they disappeared; but so nobody knew that they died." **
(cont’d)
O
Old_Scholar
Guest
(cont’d)
Elijah was picked up bodily and placed down in a different location somewhere on earth. Ezekiel experienced the same thing in his day.
Ezekiel 3:12 Then the spirit took me up, and I heard behind me a voice of a great rushing, saying, Blessed be the glory of the LORD from his place. 13) I heard also the noise of the wings of the living creatures that touched one another, and the noise of the wheels over against them, and a noise of a great rushing. 14) So the spirit lifted me up, and took me away, and I went in bitterness, in the heat of my spirit; but the hand of the LORD was strong upon me. 15) Then I came to them of the captivity at Telabib, that dwelt by the river of Chebar, and I sat where they sat, and remained there astonished among them seven days.
Philip, a man of God, was identically transported bodily through the air from a spot from Jerusalem and Gaza, into the city of Azotus, a few miles awayl
Acts 8:26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. 27) And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, 28) Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. 29) Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot………… 39)And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40) But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
This is evidence, Scriptural evidence, that John is right. No one has gone up to heaven but Christ.
I will cover Enoch later. Space won’t permit it here.
Elijah was picked up bodily and placed down in a different location somewhere on earth. Ezekiel experienced the same thing in his day.
Ezekiel 3:12 Then the spirit took me up, and I heard behind me a voice of a great rushing, saying, Blessed be the glory of the LORD from his place. 13) I heard also the noise of the wings of the living creatures that touched one another, and the noise of the wheels over against them, and a noise of a great rushing. 14) So the spirit lifted me up, and took me away, and I went in bitterness, in the heat of my spirit; but the hand of the LORD was strong upon me. 15) Then I came to them of the captivity at Telabib, that dwelt by the river of Chebar, and I sat where they sat, and remained there astonished among them seven days.
Philip, a man of God, was identically transported bodily through the air from a spot from Jerusalem and Gaza, into the city of Azotus, a few miles awayl
Acts 8:26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. 27) And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, 28) Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. 29) Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot………… 39)And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40) But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
This is evidence, Scriptural evidence, that John is right. No one has gone up to heaven but Christ.
I will cover Enoch later. Space won’t permit it here.
E
EphelDuath
Guest
Wisdom 2:12-20. “Let us therefore lie in wait for the just, because he is not for our turn, and he is contrary to our doings, and upbraideth us with transgressions of the law, and divulgeth against us the sins of our way of life. He boasteth that he hath the knowledge of God, and calleth himself the son of God. He is become a censurer of our thoughts. He is grievous unto us, even to behold: for his life is not like other men’s, and his ways are very different. We are esteemed by him as triflers, and he abstaineth from our ways as from filthiness, and he preferreth the latter end of the just, and glorieth that he hath God for his father. Let us see then if his words be true, and let us prove what shall happen to him, and we shall know what his end shall be. For if he be the true son of God, he will defend him, and will deliver him from the hands of his enemies. Let us examine him by outrages and tortures, that we may know his meekness and try his patience. Let us condemn him to a most shameful death: for there shall be respect had unto him by his words.”
A prophecy that describes Jesus perfectly, written 200 years before the birth of Christ. If this isn’t a prophecy, I don’t know what is; and in an “apocryphal book” no less.
A prophecy that describes Jesus perfectly, written 200 years before the birth of Christ. If this isn’t a prophecy, I don’t know what is; and in an “apocryphal book” no less.
E
EphelDuath
Guest
Infallible interpretation does not mean Church interpretation. Infallible means that no man or bishop can by any means interpret the verse with a contradictory view. That doesn’t mean that the Church cannot teach on that verse, however; Church view says that Revelation 5:8 proves saints can intercede for us, but that’s not an infallible interpretation. Doesn’t mean it isn’t right or official.
E
EphelDuath
Guest
Old Scholar, your view of assumptions and ascensions are unbiblical.
Ascension means you go to Heaven of your own power. Assumption means one brings you here. Jesus said that no man has ascended to Heaven (before himself), and that’s quite true. Because God brought Mary, Enoch and Elijah to Heaven.
Hebrews 11:5. “By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.”
You say that no man went to Heaven before Christ. This is unbiblical. I guess Paul was a Satanist Catholic though, right?
Ascension means you go to Heaven of your own power. Assumption means one brings you here. Jesus said that no man has ascended to Heaven (before himself), and that’s quite true. Because God brought Mary, Enoch and Elijah to Heaven.
Hebrews 11:5. “By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.”
You say that no man went to Heaven before Christ. This is unbiblical. I guess Paul was a Satanist Catholic though, right?
E
EphelDuath
Guest
Old Scholar, you also say no man used Sirach before the Council of Trent. Explain this:
*
“‘Be just in your judgement’ [Deut 1:16,17 Prov 31:9] make no distinction between man and man when correcting transgressions. Do not waver in your decision. ‘Do not be one that opens his hands to receive, but shuts them when it comes to giving’ [Sirach 4:31].” Didache, 4:3-5 (A.D. 90).
“At this stage some rise up, saying that the Lord, by reason of the rod, and threatening, and fear, is not good; misapprehending, as appears, the Scripture which says, ‘And he that feareth the Lord will turn to his heart’[Sirach 21:6], and most of all, oblivious of His love, in that for us He became man.” Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, I:8 (A.D. 202).
“Holy Scripture teaches and forewarns, saying, ‘My son, when thou comest to the service of God, stand in righteousness and fear, and prepare thy soul for temptation’[Sirach 2:1,4]. And again: 'In pain endure, and in thy humility have patience; for gold and silver is tried in the fire, but acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.[Sirach 2:5].” Cyprian, Treatise 7,9 (A.D. 252).
“But listen to the divine oracles: ‘The works of the Lord are in judgment; from the beginning, and from His making of them, He disposed the parts thereof. He garnished His works for ever, and their principles unto their generations’[Sirach 16:24-25].” Dionysius the Great, On Nature, 3 (ante A.D. 265).
*
Are you implying the Council of Trent took place before 90 AD? Gee, my history professors don’t know what they’re talking about. Besides, Paul derived the doctrine of purgatory from Sirach.
Sirach 2:5-6. “For gold and silver are tried in the fire, but acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation. Believe God, and he will recover thee: and direct thy way, and trust in him. Keep his fear, and grow old therein.” / 1 Corinthians 3:12-13. “Now, if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: Every man’s work shall be manifest. For the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire. And the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is.”
*
“‘Be just in your judgement’ [Deut 1:16,17 Prov 31:9] make no distinction between man and man when correcting transgressions. Do not waver in your decision. ‘Do not be one that opens his hands to receive, but shuts them when it comes to giving’ [Sirach 4:31].” Didache, 4:3-5 (A.D. 90).
“At this stage some rise up, saying that the Lord, by reason of the rod, and threatening, and fear, is not good; misapprehending, as appears, the Scripture which says, ‘And he that feareth the Lord will turn to his heart’[Sirach 21:6], and most of all, oblivious of His love, in that for us He became man.” Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, I:8 (A.D. 202).
“Holy Scripture teaches and forewarns, saying, ‘My son, when thou comest to the service of God, stand in righteousness and fear, and prepare thy soul for temptation’[Sirach 2:1,4]. And again: 'In pain endure, and in thy humility have patience; for gold and silver is tried in the fire, but acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.[Sirach 2:5].” Cyprian, Treatise 7,9 (A.D. 252).
“But listen to the divine oracles: ‘The works of the Lord are in judgment; from the beginning, and from His making of them, He disposed the parts thereof. He garnished His works for ever, and their principles unto their generations’[Sirach 16:24-25].” Dionysius the Great, On Nature, 3 (ante A.D. 265).
*
Are you implying the Council of Trent took place before 90 AD? Gee, my history professors don’t know what they’re talking about. Besides, Paul derived the doctrine of purgatory from Sirach.
Sirach 2:5-6. “For gold and silver are tried in the fire, but acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation. Believe God, and he will recover thee: and direct thy way, and trust in him. Keep his fear, and grow old therein.” / 1 Corinthians 3:12-13. “Now, if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: Every man’s work shall be manifest. For the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire. And the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is.”
J
jmcrae
Guest
Uh - it was Christ’s Resurrection that opened the doors of Heaven to the human race. Nobody ever went to Heaven before Christ’s Resurrection.
I have no idea what you are talking about with regard to St. Paul, but OldScholar is right that nobody went to Heaven before Jesus did. It would have been physically impossible. (I disagree with him on many other things, but on this point at least, he is in accord with the teachings of the Catholic Church.)
E
EphelDuath
Guest
Enoch and Elijah were exceptions, whom God assumed into heaven for specific purposes. Unless you are purporting that Paul is mistaken?
J
justasking4
Guest
I didn’t say your church can’t teach on this. What i’m saying is that catholics do not have any advantage in interpreting scripture over anyone else since their magisterium has never interpreted infallibly or offically most verses of the Bible. This means that catholics cannot claim with any certainty what a verse means.
J
jmcrae
Guest
They went to a happy afterlife - the Limbo of Fathers; not to Heaven, though, since human beings could not go to Heaven before Christ’s resurrection. Obviously, they would have gone to Heaven from the Limbo of Fathers at that moment, but not before. It was Christ’s humanity that caused the gates of Heaven to open to the human race, when He passed through them by means of His divinity.
N
Newbie2
Guest
Where does he say everything?
Hehe. You just did.
“And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John, and led them up a high mountain apart by themselves; and he was transfigured before them, and his garments became glistening, intensely white, as no fuller on earth could bleach them. And there appeared to them Eli’jah with Moses; and they were talking to Jesus.”
So where did Elijah and Moses come from, then?
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Not relevant…based upon your own Sola Scriptura beliefs (whichever batch they are) you have to grant us the same authority of interpretation that you lay claim to yourself.
If the Catholic Church has infallibly defined 20 verses of the Word of God, then that is about 20 more than any n-C faith community has. I know from having been one of you for so long.
Moreover, the Catholic Church interprets scripture in the context of all other scripture, not just a select few passages as most n-C communities do. A prize example of this is “the way of salvation”.
Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?
How Is A Catholic Saved?
There is as much as history will supply. A lack of a body is a good start as is the lack of a grave site. The fact that there is an account that says that the apostles were there when she died, whether you accept it or not is a source that cannot be reasonably discounted.
It always saddens me to see the way that so many n-Cs act as if history counts for nothing simply because it is not recorded in the Word of God. I think it’s just another fruit of Sola Scriptura that inhibits them from seeing truth.
Based on that sort of thinking then one should probably reject the teaching on the Holy Trinity since it is only implied in scripture and did not definitively develop for many centuries later.
History informs so much of what we believe. It’s so inconsistent and illogical of n-C/a-Cs to buy into some history, especially some of the more fanciful propaganda concerning the Catholic Church for instance, and not have the God-given common sense to read the ECF and the objective accounts of what they believed and what happened to them. That simply makes no sense at all.
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jmcrae
Guest
The Limbo of the Fathers. (This is Catholic teaching.)
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Church_Militant
Guest
Doesn’t it also concur with Jewish teaching as well insofar as where their righteous dead go?
(Where ARE all our Orthodox Jewish friends at when we get on something like this?!)
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jmcrae
Guest
I have no idea. Why does it matter?
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justasking4
Guest
It is relevant for the mere fact that even with a magisterium you don’t have have any certainty what passages or verses of scripture mean since they have never interpreted most of them. Just as i can have errant interpretations so do all catholics. This means also you must interpret and be your own authority.
There is something like over 30,000 verses in the protestant scriptures. More in the catholic bible. Claiming 20 verses gives you no advantage in those areas where verses have not been infallibly interpreted.
I know your church tries to do this but it fails when it comes to the marian doctrines.
Are you aware of the date for these claims? From my understanding it was made centuries after it supposedly happened. The other more serious issue is your church is dogmatic about this that it did happen even though there is no evidence for it from the 1st century. It is a speculative claim.
It should not sadden you but trouble you deeply about the claims your church makes about this. Not only is it not in scripture but there is no real historical evidence for it.
Not so. The Trinity doctrine can be well grounded in the Scriptures. To compare the marian proof claims is not an equal comparison for the mere fact the Scriptures never make such claims about her.
What do you mean by “the more fanciful propaganda concerning the Catholic Church”?
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Jerry-Jet
Guest
When Paul speaks in the scriptures of 'a man being caught up to the third heaven" does that not indicate that there are levels of heaven?
In other words could Elijah and Enoch gone to a lower region of heaven distinct from the Limbo of the Fathers that was not the highest heaven that Jesus opened after his death on the cross?
Could they have been in a different place than the Limbo of the Fathers because of their righteousness and future mission as witnesses against the anti-Christ?
If John the Baptist was sanctified in Elizabeth’s womb because he had to prepare the way of the lord–maybe Enoch and Elijah were caught up to a lower heaven so they might be sanctified to preach against the anti-christ at the end of the world.
In other words could Elijah and Enoch gone to a lower region of heaven distinct from the Limbo of the Fathers that was not the highest heaven that Jesus opened after his death on the cross?
Could they have been in a different place than the Limbo of the Fathers because of their righteousness and future mission as witnesses against the anti-Christ?
If John the Baptist was sanctified in Elizabeth’s womb because he had to prepare the way of the lord–maybe Enoch and Elijah were caught up to a lower heaven so they might be sanctified to preach against the anti-christ at the end of the world.
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jmcrae
Guest
Yes, it does, and we see that in Catholic tradition as well, especially in Dante’s Paradise, which refers to seven levels of Heaven.
St. Paul was writing after the Resurrection, of course, and could have been speaking about someone he knew, or even of himself.
I don’t know. I consider it unlikely.
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