SPLIT: Questions Catholics Will Not Answer.

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John 6:53. No Eucharist, no salvation.

James 2:14. Faith without works is dead.

Isn’t it funny how figurative Fundamentalists become when they get to John and James?

But there those Catholics go again, quoting Scripture and incorporating it into their liturgy and lives…
 
The Council of Trent contradicted the usual Roman Catholic practice of the early church. The early church held to Sola Scriptura. It believed that all doctrine must be proven from the Scripture and if such proof could not be produced, the doctrine was to be rejected.

Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement, the Didache, Barnabas and others taught doctrine and defended Christianity against heresies. ** In doing this, their sole appeal for authority was Scripture.** Their writings continually show and quote the spirit of the Old and the New Testament. Justin Martyr and Athenagoras also reflected this same belief in their writings. There is no appeal in any of the writings to the authority of tradition as a separate and independent body of revelation.

Irenaeus and Tertullian give us the first concept of Apostolic Tradition, which means the word, **although first given orally, was then written down so that it could be proven with the written Scriptures. ** They both gave the actual doctrinal content of the Apostolic Tradition that was orally preached in the churches. Their writings show that all their doctrine was derived from Scripture. There was no doctrine in what they refer to as apostolic Tradition that is not found in Scripture.

Tradition was simply the teaching of Scripture. Irenaeus stated that while the Apostles at first preached orally, their teaching was later committed to writing (the Scriptures), and the Scriptures since that day had become the pillar and ground of the Chursh’s faith. This is his exact statement:

"We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith." Vol 1 Irenaeus “against Heresies” 3.1.1

Tertullian said that Scripture is the only means for refuting or validating a doctrine as regards its content.

Irenaeus said that the Church doctrine is certainly never purely traditional; on the contrary, the thought that there could be some truth, transmitted exclusively viva voce (orally), is a Gnostic line of thought. When Irenaeus wanted to prove the truth of a doctrine materially, he turned to Scripture, because there the teaching of the apostles is objectively assessable. There can be no proof without Scripture.

It was taken for granted that, for any doctrine to win acceptance, it had first to establish its Scriptural basis.


Cyril of Jerusalem also held to Sola Scriptura.

He stated in explicit terms that if he were to present any teaching that could not be validated from Scripture, it was to be rejected.

"This seal have thou ever on thy mind; which now by way of summary has been touched on in its heads, and if the Lord grant, shall hereafter be set forth according to our power, with Scripture proofs. For concerning the divine and sacred Mysteries of the Faith, we ought not to deliver even the most casual remark without the Holy Scriptures: nor be drawn aside by mere probabilities and the artifices of argument. Do not then believe me because I tell thee these things, unless thou receive from the Holy Scriptures the proof of what is set forth: for this salvation, which is of our faith, is not by ingenious reasonings, but by proof from the Holy Scriptures." The Catechetical Lectures of S. Cyril" Lecture 4.17


There were many other early church fathers who believed as these I have listed. It was the common practice of the church in those days. It was much later when the church started drifting away from Scripture.

This was the early Catholic Church. It was and still is the same Church I belong to. The Reformers tried to get it back on track in the 15th and 16th century but the Roman influence was so great, it ended up with a great split. There are certainly remnants of the original church out there however, still believing the truth and teaching the Scriptures, nothing more.
They said Scripture not Scripture Alone. The word Scripture Alone is completely absent. They do not adhere to Sola Scriptura. These are false misconceptions. It’s odd though, you use Catholic theologians to try to support your claim, Old Scholar because the ECF you mentioned are Catholics.
 
The only Truth Church of Jesus Christ is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. They are not Protestant or Eastern Orthodox. Both lack the keys of the kingdom, whom Jesus Christ given the keys to Peter in Matthew 16:18.
 
The Council of Trent contradicted the usual Roman Catholic practice of the early church. The early church held to Sola Scriptura.
Prior to 405 AD, there was no “Scriptura,” so how in the world could the Early Church have followed such a doctrine? 🤷
It believed that all doctrine must be proven from the Scripture and if such proof could not be produced, the doctrine was to be rejected.
I am very familiar with the Early Fathers, but I don’t see them using Scripture alone to defend against heresies. They use it in combination with the Holy Tradition of the Church. It was never a matter of “either/or” with them, any more than it is with us, today.

St. Cyril certainly uses strong language in that particular lecture that you are quoting, and yet, in other of his lectures, he passes on Holy Tradition that is not found in the Scriptures at all. In practice, he certainly did not hold to “Scripture alone,” since he mentions many things to his students that are not found in the Bible.
 
The Council of Trent contradicted the usual Roman Catholic practice of the early church. The early church held to Sola Scriptura. It believed that all doctrine must be proven from the Scripture and if such proof could not be produced, the doctrine was to be rejected.

**Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement, the Didache, Barnabas and others taught doctrine and defended Christianity against heresies. ** In doing this, their sole appeal for authority was Scripture.****] Their writings continually show and quote the spirit of the Old and the New Testament.Okay… you have hung yourself.
Look at this direct quote from one of your sources, Ignatius of Antioch. (Another of my Catholic heroes!)
CHAP. VII.–LET US STAND ALOOF FROM SUCH HERETICS.
 
Okay… you have hung yourself.
Look at this direct quote from one of your sources, Ignatius of Antioch. (Another of my Catholic heroes!)
Now… Ignatius and I fully agree with St. Paul in 1st Corinthians 10 & 11 where this is expressly taught.

Do you and your particular faith community believe and practice this? No… you do not. You embraced the error of symbolism that (as you put it) crept into the church during the reformation. Why would someone do that. Here’s my theory.
My Reformation Theory
[SIGN]👍 [/SIGN]
 
John 6:53. No Eucharist, no salvation.

**James 2:14. Faith without works is dead. **

Isn’t it funny how figurative Fundamentalists become when they get to John and James?
On your quote from James, none of the reformers would disagree, a dead faith is not a saving faith.

As to your quote from John, your church doesn’t hold that one must receive the eucharist to be saved.
 
Church Militant

**
But let’s turn your own question back on you. With regard to communion (The Eucharist). “Are you really not aware that the early church fathers claimed that” the Eucharist is really the body and blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ, just as St. Paul teaches in 1st Corinthians 10:16-17 and 11:23-30? “Don’t you ever read anything except what you are told to read?”
**

You need to look up the word “communion.” Everyone realizes that Christ was speaking metaphorically and did not expect anyone to bite a chunk out of His arm. To really think that you would be eating the actual flesh and drinking the actual blood is a little odd. Did the apostles actually bite into Jesus? Of course not!

Christ is present during the communion, no doubt about that because He promised He would be there but to believe we are drinking His blood is too much.

I hope you will read the post I gave about the early church fathers and the fact that they were *Sola Scriptura *believers. I have provided you the references and there are many more I could quote. No one believes anything could be accurately handed down through centuries by word of mouth and remain pure. It must have a basis and that is why God gave us the Bible.
 
Are you saying that the historical evidence for her assumption is not important?

You can claim “All the Marian Dogmas stand in relation to Christ and the Creeds” but you cannot claim that are all grounded in the Scriptures or history either.
Where is the historical basis for the resurrection- ain’t seen it in any history books. I believe it but history is quiet on it.History would be cool:cool: but shouldn’t be required for faith;)
 
Are you really not aware that the early church fathers claimed that if tradition could not be substantiated by Scripture, it was a false tradition?
My beloved brother in Christ, The Teachings of The Catholic Church are in full concert with both Sacred Tradition and Scripture.Furthermore the New Testament is part of Tradition. You are aware, I’m sure, that the Church predates the New Testament writings.

BTW, as to the OP, your “questions which Catholics will not answer” have all been answered multiple times. So I hope that in the future, as a matter of honesty, you will not make such a false claim again.

Your servant in Christ.
 
As to your quote from John, your church doesn’t hold that one must receive the eucharist to be saved.
You have to be already saved in order to received the Eucharist since through baptism we are saved or born again. Catholics are baptized, confirmed, and received confession before receiving the Body and Blood of the Lord. Believing first is required and then to believe is then to act upon your faith. Just as Jesus command us to celebrate the Las Supper by the command, “Do this in remembrance of me.”

Receiving the Body and Blood of Lord fills us with abundance of grace that cleanse us from our iniquities. For Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats the my flesh and drink my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.”
 
, Clement, the Didache, Barnabas and others taught doctrine and defended Christianity against heresies. In doing this, their sole appeal for authority was Scripture. Their writings continually show and quote the spirit of the Old and the New Testament.Polycarp was infant baptized.

Yet I wager that your faith community does not believe in or practice, nor even accept those who are infant baptized, so if as you will no doubt tell us your beliefs are the scriptural ones, then how can you fail to accept and practice something that Polycarp and the early church did? Yet you say that the scriptures support your beliefs and that Polycarp was an advocate of Sola Scriptura. Obviously one of you is dead wrong. I know who my money is on…
CHAPTER 9
9:1 But to Polycarp, as he entered the arena, there came a voice from heaven, saying, Be strong, and play the man, O Polycarp. And the speaker no man saw; but the voice those of our people who were present heard. And when he was brought in there was a great tumult, when men heard that Polycarp was apprehended.
9:2 Then, when he had been brought in, the proconsul asked him if he was Polycarp. And when he confessed, he would have persuaded him to deny, saying, Have respect unto thine age, and other things like these, as is their custom to say: Swear by the fortunes of Caesar; Repent; Say, Away with the Atheists. But Polycarp, when he had looked with a grave face at all the multitude of lawless heathen in the arena, having beckoned unto them with his hand, sighed, and looking up unto heaven, said, Away with the Atheists!
9:3 And when the proconsul pressed him, and said, Swear, and I will release thee, revile Christ; Polycarp said, Eighty and six years have I served him, and in nothing hath he wronged me; and how, then, can I blaspheme my King, who saved me?
He was 86 years old at that time.
the Didache
You try to tell us that the Didache goes along with your beliefs?! Baloney (with apologies to the lunch meat)!
Look here at what the Didache says,
Chapter 4. Various Precepts. My child, remember night and day him who speaks the word of God to you, and honor him as you do the Lord. For wherever the lordly rule is uttered, there is the Lord. And seek out day by day the faces of the saints, in order that you may rest upon their words. Do not long for division, but rather bring those who contend to peace. Judge righteously, and do not respect persons in reproving for transgressions. You shall not be undecided whether or not it shall be.** Be not a stretcher forth of the hands to receive and a drawer of them back to give. If you have anything, through your hands you shall give ransom for your sins. Do not hesitate to give, nor complain when you give; for you shall know who is the good repayer of the hire.**
Do not turn away from him who is in want; rather, share all things with your brother, and do not say that they are your own.Go ahead… show me that in your Bible. I happen to have it in mine. In the books that you errantly don’t have.

It certainly seems that the Didache, which is one of the earliest ECF documents and of near canonical acceptance preaches something that you do not, and that Catholics do to this day, and insofar as you make a case for SS from it, then I would have to point out that you do not even have the same Bible that it teaches from. 🤷

Life calls…I’ll be back later.
 
Church Militant

You need to look up the word “communion.” Everyone realizes that Christ was speaking metaphorically and did not expect anyone to bite a chunk out of His arm. To really think that you would be eating the actual flesh and drinking the actual blood is a little odd. Did the apostles actually bite into Jesus? Of course not!

Really? I doubt it.

The Epistles

Acts 20:11 “When Paul had gone up and had broken bread and eaten…” St. Paul explained clearly what “breaking bread” meant. 1 Cor 10:16 “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the Blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the Body of Christ?” St. Paul continued, 1 Cor 11:27 “Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the Body and Blood of the Lord.” St. Paul in these words confirmed Catholic teaching that the “bread … of the Lord” is truly Christ’s Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, and that the “cup of the Lord” is the same substance: “Whoever … eats the bread or drinks the cup … will be guilty of profaning the Body and Blood of the Lord.”

St. Paul added, 1 Cor 11:29 “For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the Body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.” If we receive the Holy Eucharist without acknowledging, at least in our hearts, that it is His true Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, we send ourselves to hell.
 
The New Testament accounts describe the Holy Eucharist as Jesus gave it to us. The term “bread from heaven” becomes fully clear only when we reach the Revelation to John. The Gospels Christ said at Capernaum. Jn 6:51 “I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is My Flesh.”

Jewish life is rich in symbolism. The Seder table is filled with symbolic foods. Jesus said, Mt 26:23 “He who has dipped his hand in the dish with Me, will betray Me.” He referred to the urhatz, the first washing; slaves eat quickly without stopping to wash their hands, but now Jews wash their hands in a bowl of warm water as a symbol of their freedom. The moror, bitter herbs which remind Jews that the Egyptians made their ancestors’ lives bitter with hard labor, are dipped in charoset, a sweet mixture of chopped apples, nuts, and wine, to recall that even hard lives have their sweet moments. The matzo is the bread of haste that the Hebrews ate as they fled from Egypt. The karpas, green vegetables, represent the coming of Spring with its renewal of life, symbolizing the journey from slavery to the promised land; Jews dip them in salt water before eating to recall the tears shed along the way. If Jesus had said the Holy Eucharist was a symbol the Jews at Capernaum would instantly have accepted it.

The Jews knew that He was speaking literally. Jn 6:52 “How can this man give us his Flesh to eat?” On other occasions when our Lord spoke of Himself as a Jn 10:9 “door” or a Jn 15:1 “vine,” nobody said, “How can this man be made of wood?” or “How can this man be a plant?” They recognized these as metaphors. But when Jesus insisted, Jn 6:53 “Unless you eat the Flesh of the Son of man and drink His Blood, you have no life in you; he who eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood has eternal life.” The Jews who heard this said, Jn 6:60 “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” They remembered God’s command to Noah and all mankind, Gn 9:4 “Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.” God spoke more forcefully to His chosen people. Lv 17:10 “I will set my face against that person who eats blood, and will cut him off from among his people.” It was only after Christ’s redemptive sacrifice and the Holy Spirit’s enlightenment that the Apostles saw the full meaning of our Father’s next words. Lv 17:11 “For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it for you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life.” In the Old Covenant our Father in heaven had commanded His children not to eat the blood of animals because we are not to participate in the life of animals. Animals, having no immortal souls, are lower than man in the order of created nature. However, in the New and Everlasting Covenant we consume the Blood of Christ to participate in Christ’s eternal life.

Jesus knew we would need a lot of help to become accustomed to the Holy Eucharist. He performed the Miracle of the Loaves and Fishes in the dim light of the original Passover sacrifice Ex 12:6 and of His Crucifixion. Mt 27:45 He performed the four great Eucharistic actions: He took the bread, blessed it, broke it, and gave it to His apostles to feed the people: Mt 14:15 “When it was evening, the disciples came to him and said, ‘This is a lonely place, and the day is now over; send the crowds away to go into the villages and buy food for themselves.’ Jesus said, ‘They need not go away; you give them something to eat.’ They said to him, ‘We have only five loaves here and two fish.’ And he said, ‘Bring them here to me.’ Then he ordered the crowds to sit down on the grass; and taking the five loaves and the two fish he looked up to heaven, and blessed, and broke and gave the loaves to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the crowds. And they all ate and were satisfied. And they took up twelve baskets full of the broken pieces left over.”

The three Gospel narratives of the Last Supper are absolutely consistent. Matthew: 26:26 “This is My Body.” 26:27 “This is My Blood…” Mark: 14:22 “This is My Body.” 14:24 “This is My Blood…” Luke: 22:19 “This is My Body.” 22:20 “This … is the New Covenant in My Blood.” Jesus’ next words instituted the Catholic priesthood: Lk 22:19 “Do this in remembrance of Me.”

Jesus assured the Apostles that the Holy Eucharist is a reflection of the heavenly banquet. Mt 26:29 “I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

After His resurrection, Jesus walked with two disciples to Emmaus. When they arrived, He celebrated the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for them; Lk 24:30 “While He was at table with them, He took the bread and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them.”
 
Acts of the Apostles

The apostles celebrated the Sacrament of Holy Eucharist. Acts 2:46 “Day by day, attending the Temple together and breaking bread in their homes…”

The Apostles were visibly religious Jews. They wore the kippah (prayer hat), the tallit (prayer shawl with fringes) and the tephillin (phylacteries). Long after Jesus ascended to the Father, Peter protested that he had never in his life eaten anything unkosher. Acts 10:14 When these Jewish Apostles remembered Christ’s command, Lk 22:19 “Do this in remembrance of Me,” they added it to their synagogue worship. They began with synagogue prayer and Scripture readings, and then went to their homes to celebrate the Sacrament of Christ’s Body and Blood. To this very day, the Introductory Rite and Liturgy of the Word come directly from Jewish synagogue worship. The Liturgy of the Eucharist comes directly from the Apostles’ breaking bread in their homes.

At Troas, Paul spoke all night, but he made sure to receive the Holy Eucharist. Acts 20:7 “On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and he prolonged his speech until midnight.” Acts 20:11 “And when Paul had gone up and had broken bread and eaten, he conversed with them a long while, until daybreak, and so departed.”

On the Adriatic Sea, at dawn, Paul celebrated Mass for 276 people. Acts 27:35 “…he took bread, and giving thanks to God in the presence of all he broke it and began to eat. Then they all were encouraged and ate some food themselves.”
 
Truthfully, in all my years I have not met ONE single Catholic that is concerned in the least about the assumption of Mary being a taught truth. We just don’t need physical evidence since it all fits perfectly with what we know to be true.

James
I think the confusion of (justasking4) in his post has to do with the fact that he derives his opinion from people who claim they are Catholic because of a baptism they received as children but have rejected in practice as adults. My mother baptized all ten of her children Catholic I am the only one that reaffirmed my baptism in confirmation. The others are of varying denominations including Jehovah’s witness, Mormon, atheist, baptist and assemblies. At times i have heard them claim they were raised Catholic or are Catholic. It troubles me to admit that I saw little of this when I was growing up and no evidence of this being “catholic” now. I have never just believed what I was taught. I question every thing and the Catholic Faith is the result of my seeking.
 
Church Militant

You need to look up the word “communion.” Everyone realizes that Christ was speaking metaphorically and did not expect anyone to bite a chunk out of His arm. To really think that you would be eating the actual flesh and drinking the actual blood is a little odd. Did the apostles actually bite into Jesus? Of course not!

Christ is present during the communion, no doubt about that because He promised He would be there but to believe we are drinking His blood is too much.

I hope you will read the post I gave about the early church fathers and the fact that they were *Sola Scriptura *believers. I have provided you the references and there are many more I could quote. No one believes anything could be accurately handed down through centuries by word of mouth and remain pure. It must have a basis and that is why God gave us the Bible.
You better start talking to the Jews and there beliefs in oral tradition- centuries went by before it was written in ink. Students of rabbis( and Jesus was called Rabbi ) were forbidden to write anything there master said down. Why because oral tradition was the norm and oral tradition more reliable.If you screwed up orally you would have a whole group pf people telling you where you made a mistake. If you wrote it -you’d probably be by yourself- you could start to fall asleep- or you could believe that part of scripture was not clear enough and make your own correction of copies. as far as Jesus and communion- communion is what we call it because we are in communion with Christ- John6 tells how many walked away from Him because the teaching was too hard- apparently to hard for you . your completely rude and smarmy remarks about the Eucharist could get any catholic severely irritated at you.:mad:
 
On your quote from James, none of the reformers would disagree, a dead faith is not a saving faith.

As to your quote from John, your church doesn’t hold that one must receive the eucharist to be saved.
Evidence, please.
 
“A most precious possession therefore is the knowledge of doctrines: also there is need of a wakeful soul, since there are many that make spoil through philosophy and vain deceit. The Greeks on the one hand draw men away by their smooth tongue, for honey droppeth from a harlot’s lips: whereas they of the Circumcision deceive those who come to them by means of the Divine Scriptures, which they miserably misinterpret though studying them from childhood to all age, and growing old in ignorance. But the children of heretics, by their good words and smooth tongue, deceive the hearts of the innocent, disguising with the name of Christ as it were with honey the poisoned arrows of their impious doctrines: concerning all of whom together the Lord saith, Take heed lest any man mislead you. This is the reason for the teaching of the Creed and for expositions upon it.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 4:2 (A.D. 350).
 
This is an amazing group of people. It must be one of the best groupings of Catholics with all these people defending the truth. WOW!😃
 
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