SPLIT: Questions Catholics Will Not Answer.

[guanophore]

If this is so, i’m sure you are concerned with the babies you may have baptized or know of who grow up thinking they are catholics becasue they were baptized as infants who believe they are going to heaven but who have no fruit in their lives that they really are catholics. How many claimed catholics who claim don’t even bother with church teachings or practices but when asked if they are catholics will tell you they are based on being baptized as infants?

Far too many! Gross failure of catechesis.

This is one of the problems there is with infant baptism is that it gives those who were a false sense of security.

Gimme a break! How can this be any more false than OSAS?!?!?

Thats why i believe the scriptures are clear that a person must have an understanding of what their condition is and their need of a Savior. Once this is realized i.e. believed, then baptism should follow becasue it is a public sign that person has acknowledged Christ and is going to follow Him.

A person’s misunderstanding and false sense of security does not change the True Teaching of Jesus and the saving nature of baptism. Scripture teaches that baptism washes away sins.

 

[juliamajor]

**I am not angry at Catholics. I think most Catholics are good Christians. I am not happy with the Roman Catholic Church because they have changed the Catholic Church to what it is today.

Today it teaches false doctrines, that are contradictory to the Scriptures and makes claims that the pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth and Christ taught just the opposite.

Originally the Catholic Church was great and followed the apostolic teaching. This was for the first few centuries then the changes began. If you will simply read the early church fathers writings, you will see what all has been changed. They all taught that tradition was not right if it could not be supported by Scripture and look at what we have today. Tradition trumping Scripture, claims of infallibility for the church and for the pope. I love Catholics and hope they all achieve their goals which I believe are to reign with Christ in His kingdom, but if they continue to believe the false doctrines taught by the RCC then I worry about them making it.

The problem is that if they would just read the early church fathers writings, they would see the false doctrines and how they came about. It’s sad, but I certainly don’t hate any Catholics. I am a Catholic but not a Roman Catholic.

The RCC doesn’t like to have them reading Scriptures but they don’t mind them reading the early fathers and that is where the truth is.**

I suggest you keep reading the ECF and much of what it says on the sacraments- the eucharist in particular and hierarchy/.Apparently my reading of them and yours don't gel.And as far as that Constantine stuff- Constantine had Arian leanings Not RC leanings- so no he didn't invent the church.Influenced probably but invented it- no . No decent Historian believes such nonsense.Oh -and as far as reading scripture- i read it everyday-study everyday , and teach it.No one discouraged me- in fact the church put me through Bible school-so give your prejudices a rest. Ok and I'll bite- what kind of catholic are you-? your own variety I guess-how about denomination-or is that a state secret too?:confused:

 

[guanophore]

**
Yes! I find the Scriptures are God’s Word to us for our daily living, our faith and morals. Everything we need to know for our daily lives and salvation is included in Scripture. They also tell us that:

“All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17, NASB 1995)

When we read that Paul is claiming that “all” Scripture is God Breathed, he is voicing his firm belief that all of the Old Testament writings, the 39 books, were “breathed” or “inspired” by God.

Likewise when the writers of the New Testament were writing their letters to the various churches, I don’t believe they thought they were writing literary masterpieces, yet knew they were writing God’s Words. God always used imperfect man to get His perfect message across. These men were divinely inspired and the Bible is God’s revelation of Himself to man. It is a perfect treasure of divine instruction. It has God as its author, salvation for its end, and truth, without any mixture of error, for its matter. Therefore, all Scripture is totally true and trustworthy. It reveals the principles by which God judges us, and therefore is, and will remain until the end of the world, the true center of Christian union, and the supreme standard by which all human conduct, creeds, and religious opinions should be tried. All Scripture is a testimony to Christ, who is Himself the focus of divine revelation.

Scripture does indeed claim to be sufficient as I have shown you above. And the church did not come first. There was no church before Paul began writing Scripture giving instructions on how to set up a church. It took some time for all this to happen. Those who say the church came first are simply mistken. The Bible is quite clear about this.
Thank you and GOD BLESS.

Correction to above, of course I meant New Testament

Thank you for your question. Most seem to want to scream instead of seeking the truth…God Bless OS
**

Sufficient is far different than profitable. Paul never dreamed that the use of those scriptures would be separated from the sacred traditions he taught, and from whence they were produced.

What do you think happened in the years before Paul was converted?

So you say Jesus was lying when he said He would build His Church on the Apostles?

 

[Stephen_C]

**I am not angry at Catholics. I think most Catholics are good Christians. I am not happy with the Roman Catholic Church because they have changed the Catholic Church to what it is today.

Today it teaches false doctrines, that are contradictory to the Scriptures and makes claims that the pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth and Christ taught just the opposite.

Originally the Catholic Church was great and followed the apostolic teaching. This was for the first few centuries then the changes began. If you will simply read the early church fathers writings, you will see what all has been changed. They all taught that tradition was not right if it could not be supported by Scripture and look at what we have today. Tradition trumping Scripture, claims of infallibility for the church and for the pope. I love Catholics and hope they all achieve their goals which I believe are to reign with Christ in His kingdom, but if they continue to believe the false doctrines taught by the RCC then I worry about them making it.

The problem is that if they would just read the early church fathers writings, they would see the false doctrines and how they came about. It’s sad, but I certainly don’t hate any Catholics. I am a Catholic but not a Roman Catholic.

The RCC doesn’t like to have them reading Scriptures but they don’t mind them reading the early fathers and that is where the truth is.**

Well I do read the writings of the Early Church Fathers. I read Scripture. That is why I am Catholic. In communion with the Bishop of Rome.

 

[Jon_S]

**
The problem is that if they would just read the early church fathers writings, they would see the false doctrines and how they came about. It’s sad, but I certainly don’t hate any Catholics. I am a Catholic but not a Roman Catholic.

The RCC doesn’t like to have them reading Scriptures but they don’t mind them reading the early fathers and that is where the truth is.**

I’m “Roman” Catholic and I read the Scriptures daily. I’ve also been studying the Church Fathers for the past few years and I have found them to be very insightful as well as very Catholic.

Speaking of “false doctrines” I would like to know how you explain this whole “rapture” business that has been very popular as of late. If doctrine can’t develop, then why is this trendy new view of eschatology so accepted?

For the record, I haven’t read any “hatred” in your posts per se. I’m sure you are very genuine in your beliefs…wrong…but genuine nevertheless.

God bless.

-Jon

 

[runandsew]

You aren’t reading chapter 12 far enough. The woman isn’t Mary and Jesus is talking about His church here. Not a woman. To use ‘woman’ is the way the writers referred to many things in those days. Just read the chapter a little further and you will see the truth.

Scripture can have more than one meaning to it.
The Senses of Scripture.

This passage can be referring to Mary, The Church and Israel.

 

[CentralFLJames]

CentralFLJames;3243577]
I clicked on the link at the bottom your post and would like to ask you about it
Since there are a limited number of catholics for the past 2000 years would it be safe to say the purgatory should be empty by now or nearly so?

Your question does not make any logical sense to me JA4. Do you imagine to think that purgatory only applies to Catholics? Some number of non-Catholics do manage to get to heaven too believe it or not. But it may be for no other reason than because we pray for everyone and offer daily masses all around the world wherever Catholics are for all sinners and for fallen away brethren as well as our enemies.

There have been many billions of souls that have died since the time of Adam and Eve’s fall. I can safely say from the scripture evidence (e.g. ‘nothing impure can enter heaven’ and ‘many will try to enter heaven but few will be able to’) that there are far fewer souls in purgatory than there are in hell. I can also say with reasonable confidence from the private revelations of some of the saints that there are quite a large number of souls in purgatory who suffer for a substantial time and need our prayers.

One account mentions that even some of the most pious and devout of our Catholic sisters (e.g. Carmelite nuns) can spend on average of 40 years of our earth time before promoted to heaven - even with masses being said for them and daily prayers! People just don’t quite “get it” - getting into heaven requires absolute purity. It is NOT easy to get into heaven and if not for Jesus and God’s healing and purifying grace it would be impossible. To get to heaven we must love God and Jesus with our WHOLE HEART and if we sin we must go, no run, to confession if one commits a serious sin. We also must partaking of the Eucharist as often as we can to avail themselves of the graces necessary to have eternal life.

So rest assured Purgatory is most definitely not empty and these souls are in desperate need of our prayers - we are talking many many millions - some have been there for many centuries and some are made to wait and suffer there for all eternity since they were so enamored to sin but by God’s grace were granted a final mercy.

We actually have religious orders and special prayer co-fraternities especially dedicated to praying for these poor souls. Every single mass the Catholic Church offers up to God includes in the liturgy a special prayer for the dead. When God said “love your neighbor” He was not kidding. We are REQUIRED to give charity both to the living and the dead. Just because someone dies does not relieve us of our obligation to be charitable to them - souls are immortal and they are still our neighbors.

The beauty of God’s Kingdom though is a principal of reciprocation. If we help any of these poor souls they will be eternally happy to pray prostrate before God in heaven 24/7 (and even while still suffering in purgatory) for us. These holy souls still in purification have the joy of knowing they are saved and pine to be with God. Because they joyfully accept the suffering of purification the can offer some of the most profound intercessional power imaginable to help us here on earth.

There are believed to be so many souls in purgatory that it would take many years of many people praying 24/7 and especially offering daily masses to promote them all - but don’t forget many people are dieing new daily.

The UN estimates that population of the planet is growing by at least 85 million annually. The death rate will increase proportionate to that number. Fair estimates of global death rates are on the order of about 155,012 daily! Of these numbers only perhaps 34% even call themselves Christian. But the number of “true” Christians in God’s eyes is no doubt substantially less than this. I will stop here though and won’t project a rough ballpark “probable” estimate of the alarming numbers implied about the number who “won’t make it” to purgatory or heaven. The Church does not like to do “numbers” since this is purely a matter up to God; and we saw from OT scripture the anger that God took against those performing a human census of His people. But its fair to take Jesus at His word that “few enter heaven”. So the point I am trying to make here is we would have to do a lot of 24/7 praying with a lot of very holy and pious Christians praying to clear purgatory and keep it clear.

Does it bother you that prayer can be so powerful? It should not since scripture assures us that it can be - especially when offered in conjunction with the sacrifice of the mass.

FYI - the numbers mentioned in St. Gertrude prayers are not guarantees unless one is in a very high level of grace. Few Christians can attain what we call a “full plenary” indulgence since the requirements for holiness is very high. So we usually fall short but get a “partial indulgence” that only God knows precisely how much He merits to the benefit of another soul. This is why Catholics in particular are called a Holy Nation and a Royal Priesthood - each of us is required to keep ourselves in as holy a state as possible so our prayers can be of greater benefit to others and the earth at large. What do you think is holding back God’s wrath and letting us maintain some peace? It’s the masses we offer to God where we ask God to remember the merits of His Son Jesus’s suffering. But any prayer by any individual benefits these souls infinitely more so than no prayer! So every Christian should pray as a matter of charity for those departed. No prayer is wasted in heaven.

Sorry to be so long here but this is a special dimension of The Church that is of interest to me. I hope I answered your questions.
James

 

[CentralFLJames]

I believe I understand the message quite clear. However I am always trying to learn and to assure I have the truth.

Shouldn’t you be trying to do the same? If you would only researchy what I am writing, then you would see how wrong you are on so many things.

Go back to the original Catholic Church and study the beliefs and then look at them now and remember what Christ said about changing things. You must be able to do that but I don’t think you want to know the truth.

I don’t think you believe you understand the message at all or the Holy Spirit would not have brought you here.

I have read the bible cover to cover and cross checked old to new and back and forth and studied it and prayer over and it just resonates with the message of Emanuel, the promised savior coming to free us from our captivity to sin in the same way that God freed Israel from their captivity to the Egyptians. God spared His people with the blood of the pascal lamb. God fed his people in the dessert with the manna that came down from heaven. Jesus came down from heaven as the living word of God made flesh (the logos). The word was spoken on earth and lived among us on earth (Emanuel). The word becomes the bread of life that is broken on the cross at passover to become the perfect and only acceptable sacrifice to God to appease His wrath against a fallen humanity. The gates of heaven are open by His merits and the prisoners in purgatory and those imprisoned to their sins are freed of the eternal debts of sin. Jesus feeds His flock through His Church founded on Peter. The Catholic Church in a 2000 year apostolic succession offers up to God the same perfect sacrifice to God as an intercession for our sins and to receive grace. God is pleased and send down abundant grace as well as permits the bread and wine to be miraculously transformed into the living body and blood of Jesus. And so we eat this bread of life to have eternal life within us. And someday we are all reunited from our banishment to come home to eternal life united in Christ in uncorrupted bodies (at the last day) and go on to do the bigger and better things that God had originally planned for humanity.

I got that message loud and clear - I just can’t imagine how you didn’t having read the same message.

I suggest playing back your life and seeing where in your early days somone planted the lie that The (Roman) Catholic Church is your enemy. Anyone give you wormy apples when you where a kid while promising you equality with God?

James

 

[geraldffff]

**I am not angry at Catholics. I think most Catholics are good Christians. I am not happy with the Roman Catholic Church because they have changed the Catholic Church to what it is today.

Today it teaches false doctrines, that are contradictory to the Scriptures and makes claims that the pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth and Christ taught just the opposite.

Originally the Catholic Church was great and followed the apostolic teaching. This was for the first few centuries then the changes began. If you will simply read the early church fathers writings, you will see what all has been changed. They all taught that tradition was not right if it could not be supported by Scripture and look at what we have today. Tradition trumping Scripture, claims of infallibility for the church and for the pope. I love Catholics and hope they all achieve their goals which I believe are to reign with Christ in His kingdom, but if they continue to believe the false doctrines taught by the RCC then I worry about them making it.

The problem is that if they would just read the early church fathers writings, they would see the false doctrines and how they came about. It’s sad, but I certainly don’t hate any Catholics. I am a Catholic but not a Roman Catholic.

The RCC doesn’t like to have them reading Scriptures but they don’t mind them reading the early fathers and that is where the truth is.**

Well you can deny it all you want but I have read your posts and it is clear you despise and loath Roman Catholics. Your claims of use of the ECF to base your Catholic bashing on is not creditable. Jehovah’s witnesses also say “we are not attacking catholic but are trying to rescue them from the errors of the hierarchy”, They are not credible either. I’m Glad you answered my question but your previous posts are clearly hate filled and contentious. I wounder if you see a direct connection between people who promote abortion and the denial of a reality of God? If you do see a connection what in the Gospel of Luke would you point to as proof of this.

 

[elvisman]

I am not angry at Catholics. I think most Catholics are good Christians. I am not happy with the Roman Catholic Church because they have changed the Catholic Church to what it is today.

Today it teaches false doctrines, that are contradictory to the Scriptures and makes claims that the pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth and Christ taught just the opposite.

Originally the Catholic Church was great and followed the apostolic teaching. This was for the first few centuries then the changes began. If you will simply read the early church fathers writings, you will see what all has been changed. They all taught that tradition was not right if it could not be supported by Scripture and look at what we have today. Tradition trumping Scripture, claims of infallibility for the church and for the pope. I love Catholics and hope they all achieve their goals which I believe are to reign with Christ in His kingdom, but if they continue to believe the false doctrines taught by the RCC then I worry about them making it.

The problem is that if they would just read the early church fathers writings, they would see the false doctrines and how they came about. It’s sad, but I certainly don’t hate any Catholics. I am a Catholic but not a Roman Catholic.

The RCC doesn’t like to have them reading Scriptures but they don’t mind them reading the early fathers and that is where the truth is.

Hey - Old “Scholar”, is it?
Show me ONE false doctrine of the Catholic Church - just ONE.
But - back it up with scripture to show me that is is a false doctrine.
Ummm . . . CAN you do that?

P.S. - Don’t run, this time. Stand up and reason like somebody who knows what they’re talking about. Hit & Run apologetics is getting rather boring.

 

[CentralFLJames]

My younger sister and another person in her nondenom congregation are going through their trials as the pastor of a couple years is putting on the pressure for turning over information about their incomes to make sure they are giving enough. One of theses are talking about starting another church with another relative. Makes me so happy I am Catholic.

LOL - yeah - the “Tradition” of the older people in the congregation is to give $1 cash in the basket. haha.

Kidding…

James

 

[geraldffff]

I got that message loud and clear - I just can’t imagine how you didn’t having read the same message.

I suggest playing back your life and seeing where in your early days somone planted the lie that The (Roman) Catholic Church is your enemy. Anyone give you wormy apples when you where a kid while promising you equality with God?

James

I think your on to something, OS posts are full of bitterness and hatred toward Catholics. My conversion came with the reading of The City of God and confessions which are based on the writings of the ECF and the Bible. I went to communion this evening and it was the highpoint in my week which it always is and going during the week to communion is also awesome .

 

[CentralFLJames]

Today it teaches false doctrines, that are contradictory to the Scriptures and makes claims that the pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth and Christ taught just the opposite.

This is completely untrue. Apply some basic common sense here!

Do you honestly think any Catholic priest, bishop, cardinal or pope does not believe in God. Do you think these men are grand conspirators living an active lie? Do you think that is true given that these men: give up all pursuits of the world, commit themselves to a celibate life, receive only a minor stipend to cover very basic living expenses, get a terrible benefits and retirement package, put up with nagging old people in church who complain or gossip about everything imaginable, work 7 days a week, get called in for emergency last rite services all hours of the day and night. etc. etc. etc.

Do you really think a Catholic clergy at any level who clearly absolutely believes in God would make a conscious effort to teach something they did not believe with their whole heart mind and soul to be true? Do you really think that they would put their immortal souls at risk of going to hell for teaching a lie?

If you believe there is some grand “lie” or fabrication then you my friend are suffering from more than the poison of someones hateful teaching about Catholics. I don’t know how to say this charitably but I think you are paranoid. The good news is that we can cure this with truth and prayer.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

**

The problem is that if they would just read the early church fathers writings, they would see the false doctrines and how they came about. It’s sad, but I certainly don’t hate any Catholics. I am a Catholic but not a Roman Catholic.

The RCC doesn’t like to have them reading Scriptures but they don’t mind them reading the early fathers and that is where the truth is.**

You have flip-flopped on ECF now! Before you said “scripture only” now you want to look at tradition too. Bravo - you are starting to become a Catholic - why can’t you then see the ECF teachings about the Eucharist? It’s all over the place in the early writings.

The point of the RCC is completely unsubstantiated and false. The Catholic Church encourages ongoing adult reading of scripture and maturation of the faith. Show me in the CCC or teaching anywhere where reading scripture is discouraged.

What Catholic Church do you go to for receiving The Eucharist and confession your sins? If you do not do these things with a priest ordained through a laying on of hands through the apostolic succession then you are not Catholic and are probably into some kind of gnostic or cult worship.

James

 

[geraldffff]

No actually that is not true. I could say that you can believe what you want. Then do the ole cut and paste of unrelated and partial/out of context of scripture to fit what you believe which is as best I can see is If it is Catholic it is wrong. That is your whole theology. That is your Doctrine. That is your Tradition. No matter how you slice and dice it. No matter you present it. No matter how you make up history. It is still the same. You are a member of the “If it is Catholic it is wrong” church. That is your idle. That is your Tradition. So no matter what we say here. You keep saying the same ole thing. Have you read anything here? Have you? ALL YOUR QUESTIONS HAVE BEEN ANSWERED! A few times over. And quite frankly I am so tired of your Hateful anti-Catholic clap trap.

You are so right in your reply to Old and unScholarly

 

[geraldffff]

This is completely untrue. Apply some basic common sense here!

Do you honestly think any Catholic priest, bishop, cardinal or pope does not believe in God. Do you think these men are grand conspirators living an active lie? Do you think that is true given that these men: give up all pursuits of the world, commit themselves to a celibate life, receive only a minor stipend to cover very basic living expenses, get a terrible benefits and retirement package, put up with nagging old people in church who complain or gossip about everything imaginable, work 7 days a week, get called in for emergency last rite services all hours of the day and night. etc. etc. etc.

Do you really think a Catholic clergy at any level who clearly absolutely believes in God would make a conscious effort to teach something they did not believe with their whole heart mind and soul to be true? Do you really think that they would put their immortal souls at risk of going to hell for teaching a lie?

If you believe there is some grand “lie” or fabrication then you my friend are suffering from more than the poison of someones hateful teaching about Catholics. I don’t know how to say this charitably but I think you are paranoid. The good news is that we can cure this with truth and prayer.

James

I think you should pay attention Old Scholar the Lord Is shouting in your ear and your not paying attention to you James

 

[geraldffff]

**I am not angry at Catholics. I think most Catholics are good Christians. I am not happy with the Roman Catholic Church because they have changed the Catholic Church to what it is today.

Today it teaches false doctrines, that are contradictory to the Scriptures and makes claims that the pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth and Christ taught just the opposite.

Originally the Catholic Church was great and followed the apostolic teaching. This was for the first few centuries then the changes began. If you will simply read the early church fathers writings, you will see what all has been changed. They all taught that tradition was not right if it could not be supported by Scripture and look at what we have today. Tradition trumping Scripture, claims of infallibility for the church and for the pope. I love Catholics and hope they all achieve their goals which I believe are to reign with Christ in His kingdom, but if they continue to believe the false doctrines taught by the RCC then I worry about them making it.

The problem is that if they would just read the early church fathers writings, they would see the false doctrines and how they came about. It’s sad, but I certainly don’t hate any Catholics. I am a Catholic but not a Roman Catholic.

The RCC doesn’t like to have them reading Scriptures but they don’t mind them reading the early fathers and that is where the truth is.**

I would like to offer you a little advise preceded by a statement based on my way of looking at things. One can find an endless amount of things wrong with the Roman Catholic Church if one is looking for them and that is so of all religions. But what I have found in the Roman Catholic Church is the authentic Jesus in The Breaking of the Bread. Why? Because I stopped looking at and for the sins of the priest and the people around me and concentrate only on my own sinfulness which is the only sin Jesus wants me to be concerned about. If you do not do this you will continue to walk in the darkness your posts reveal you reside in. I will remember you in my prayers.

 

[Michael_Francis]

I have just pruned 11 posts from this thread because they were FAR off topic and/or less than charitable.

Remain on the topic(s) and remain charitable.

Be advised that I am monitoring this thread for charity and compliance with all CAF’s Forum Rules & Banned Topics.

I believe that many of you can do a lot better than this.
MF

 

[Good_Fella]

**I am not angry at Catholics. I think most Catholics are good Christians. I am not happy with the Roman Catholic Church because they have changed the Catholic Church to what it is today.

Today it teaches false doctrines, that are contradictory to the Scriptures and makes claims that the pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth and Christ taught just the opposite.

Originally the Catholic Church was great and followed the apostolic teaching. This was for the first few centuries then the changes began. If you will simply read the early church fathers writings, you will see what all has been changed. They all taught that tradition was not right if it could not be supported by Scripture and look at what we have today. Tradition trumping Scripture, claims of infallibility for the church and for the pope. I love Catholics and hope they all achieve their goals which I believe are to reign with Christ in His kingdom, but if they continue to believe the false doctrines taught by the RCC then I worry about them making it.

The RCC doesn’t like to have them reading Scriptures but they don’t mind them reading the early fathers and that is where the truth is.**

The reason why Christ appointed a vicar was so that there would be a unity of faith. Protestantism is divided because there are a multitude of self-appointed vicars who believe that they have been inspired by the Holy Spirit to authoritatively interpret Scripture for themselves when reading their bibles.

I agree that originally the Catholic Church did follow the teachings of the Apostles. The early Church Fathers taught that Christ is really present in the Eucharist and Mary was perpetually a virgin and without sin, for example. Modern day Protestants deny these doctrines and dogmas of the Catholic Church.

The early Church Fathers did not claim that Tradition must be supported by Scripture. They taught that Scripture must be interpreted by the Apostolic authority of the Church in light of Tradition. You have it backwards. Tradition precedes Scripture. Scripture is infallible insofar Tradition is infallible. The ECFs believed and taught this as did the Apostles of the New Testament.

If the Magisterium of the Catholic Church wishes that we read the ECFs instead of Scripture, then that could explain why Catholics understand what the ECFs actually taught. But the truth is, the Catholic Church regards both Scripture and the writings of the ECFs. The Deposit of faith equally includes both Scripture and Tradition. The ECFs were not inclined towards the false Protestant concept of Sola Scriptura. If you recall, I illustrated this fact to you in another thread where you claimed that the ECFs believed in Sola Scriptura. You had nothing further to say then.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[Good_Fella]

**I am not angry at Catholics. I think most Catholics are good Christians. I am not happy with the Roman Catholic Church because they have changed the Catholic Church to what it is today.

Today it teaches false doctrines, that are contradictory to the Scriptures and makes claims that the pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth and Christ taught just the opposite.

Originally the Catholic Church was great and followed the apostolic teaching. This was for the first few centuries then the changes began. If you will simply read the early church fathers writings, you will see what all has been changed. They all taught that tradition was not right if it could not be supported by Scripture and look at what we have today. Tradition trumping Scripture, claims of infallibility for the church and for the pope. I love Catholics and hope they all achieve their goals which I believe are to reign with Christ in His kingdom, but if they continue to believe the false doctrines taught by the RCC then I worry about them making it.

The RCC doesn’t like to have them reading Scriptures but they don’t mind them reading the early fathers and that is where the truth is.**

The reason why Christ appointed a vicar was so that there would be a unity of faith. Protestantism is divided because there are a multitude of self-appointed vicars who believe that they have been inspired by the Holy Spirit to authoritatively interpret Scripture for themselves when reading their bibles.

I agree that originally the Catholic Church did follow the teachings of the Apostles. The early Church Fathers taught that Christ is really present in the Eucharist and Mary was perpetually a virgin and without sin, for example. Modern day Protestants deny these doctrines and dogmas of the Catholic Church.

The early Church Fathers did not claim that Tradition must be supported by Scripture. They taught that Scripture must be interpreted by the Apostolic authority of the Church in light of Tradition. You have it backwards. Tradition precedes Scripture. Scripture is infallible insofar Tradition is infallible. The ECFs believed and taught this as did the Apostles of the New Testament.

If the Magisterium of the Catholic Church wishes that we read the ECFs instead of Scripture, then that could explain why Catholics understand what the ECFs actually taught. But the truth is, the Catholic Church regards both Scripture and the writings of the ECFs. The Deposit of faith equally includes both Scripture and Tradition. The ECFs were not inclined towards the false Protestant concept of Sola Scriptura. If you recall, I illustrated this fact to you in another thread where you claimed that the ECFs believed in Sola Scriptura. You had nothing further to say then.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella