SPLIT: Suitably of certain songs for Mass

[TheMc]

Posted by Cat >>], with my [responses].
The song, “Here I Am, Lord,” is one of the reasons my husband and I converted from Protestantism to Catholicism.[Are you trying to argue for it’s inclusion in the liturgy? Just wanting to be clear…]

We were going back and forth, debating whether we should or should not convert. The Holy Spirit apparently does not agree with your assessment of this song as “ghastly tripe,” because He chose to use THIS particular hymn, “Here I Am, Lord,” to help us to see that we needed to stop stalling and go ahead and make the proper decision to leave our Protestant sects and come home to the True Church of Jesus Christ. We needed to say, “Here I am, Lord.”

I cannot say whether the Holy Spirit could have used “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name” in the same way. I’m sure He could have used any hymn or song, including secular hymns. But He chose to use “Here I Am, Lord.”[So what you are saying is that “that song” that helped you could have been any song. A secular song, a traditional hymn, any song. Simply because you have an attachment to a song, and it helped you does not mean that it should be used in the liturgy.]

So perhaps you should have a chat with the Holy Spirit and tell Him that “Here I Am, Lord” is “ghastly tripe” and should never be used again in Mass. **[We’re dealing with two separate issues here.

1. The merit of the song itself
2. It’s suitability for usage in the liturgy

For the purpose of argument, I’ll assume that the song itself is good (which I don’t think it is). But even then, it is still self centered. It may have helped you. I’m not saying it didn’t. But that doesn’t mean for one second that it should be allowed during the Mass. The Mass is not a time to be singing about ourselves. “Here I am…I…I…I…I…I…my…”]**

Interestingly, “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name” was sung often in the Protestant churches that we grew up in, often enough that I knew it pretty much by heart. When we first started attending Catholic Mass right after 2001, and I heard "Holy God, We Praise Thy Name done, I thought, “Oh, how nice. They’re doing a Protestant hymn.” But when I heard, “Here I Am, Lord,” a hymn that I have never heard in any Protestant church in 47 years of active Protestantism, I said, “What a beautiful CATHOLIC hymn!”

Basically, what I’m trying to tell you is to consider toning down your vitriol against hymns that you don’t like. If the Church allows them in the hymnals, then respect the Church. *[What do you mean by “church”? I’m sure the entire church does not approve of this hymn. I know many don’t. Do you mean your parish? Pastor? Diocese? The USCCB? The holy father? (Gasp)The publishing houses? The sensus fidelium? Please clarify.
“Lean on Me” is in one of the OCP “hymnals”, and GIA sells a piece called “I am special.” Are you prepared to use this line of reasoning on these pieces too? They are “approved by the church” so we should be able to use these as well. How about the pieces with heretical lyrics in the hymnals, such as “As A Fire Is Meant For Burning”? Should we use those too? They are “approved”…]

 

[Usige]

Posted by Cat >>], with my [responses].
So perhaps you should have a chat with the Holy Spirit and tell Him that “Here I Am, Lord” is “ghastly tripe” and should never be used again in Mass. **[We’re dealing with two separate issues here.

1. The merit of the song itself
2. It’s suitability for usage in the liturgy

For the purpose of argument, I’ll assume that the song itself is good (which I don’t think it is). But even then, it is still self centered. It may have helped you. I’m not saying it didn’t. But that doesn’t mean for one second that it should be allowed during the Mass. The Mass is not a time to be singing about ourselves. “Here I am…I…I…I…I…I…my…”]**

First, thank you TheMc for pointing out the problem many Catholics have with these hymns.

Traditional hymns like “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name” are focused on the glory of God and praise of the divine. Many contemporary hymns are about me or us much more than about praise to God. The biggest problem I (and others) have with these hymns are that the congregation is asked to sings lines like:
I who make the stars of night,
I will make their dark-ness bright.
Who will bear my light to them?
Whom shall I send?This verse is the voice of God, but no where else in the Mass do the people use the voice of God. This is where I draw the line. I find it just as wrong as if a laymen were to read the gospel.

Cat, I am sorry that you think that I dislike these song merely because of personal preference. I (and many others) don’t sing these songs because we do no feel comfortable with lyrics that we find turn the focus away from God and rather to our selves. I am more concerned with the appropriateness of the hymn than personal preferences.

I am glad that the Holy Spirit spoke to you through a particular song, but would you merrily accept and sing along with only Gregorian Chant just because that is how the Holy Spirit spoke to me? Obviously the argument that theses songs get more people to sing is not 100% true since more people sing the Kyrie in our parish than the 8 contemporary hymns that are generally used 95% of the year.

 

[TheMc]

First, thank you TheMc for pointing out the problem many Catholics have with these hymns.

Traditional hymns like “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name” are focused on the glory of God and praise of the divine. Many contemporary hymns are about me or us much more than about praise to God.

Expanding upon this point, look at a comparison between the two.

Holy God, we praise Thy Name;
Lord of all, we bow before Thee!
All on earth Thy scepter claim,
All in Heaven above adore Thee;
Infinite Thy vast domain,
Everlasting is Thy reign.​

Here I am Lord
Is it I Lord?
I have heard you calling in the night
I will go Lord
If you lead me
I will hold your people in my heart.

Look at the difference. In Holy God, we praise Thy Name, we are praising God in very high and ornate language (hey, almost like the new translation!), and it is actually a metrical translation/adaptation of the Te Deum, a liturgical hymn sung in the liturgy of the hours, and other liturgical services. The point is that through out the whole song, the focus is clearly and exclusively on God, his angels, the trinity, the saints, etc… very catholic.

In Here I am, Lord, it’s quite a different story. Just look at the main refrain.

Here I am. I heard you. I’ll do this. I’ll do that. Do this for me, and I’ll do that.

Aside from sounding very down to earth and self centered, don’t you think that’s even a little prideful, considering you are speaking to the most powerful being in the universe, it’s creator?

The biggest problem I (and others) have with these hymns are that the congregation is asked to sings lines like:
I who make the stars of night,
I will make their dark-ness bright.
Who will bear my light to them?
Whom shall I send?This verse is the voice of God, but no where else in the Mass do the people use the voice of God. This is where I draw the line. I find it just as wrong as if a laymen were to read the gospel.

There is nothing wrong with the congregation singing “in the voice of God.” However, if you are going to be singing “in the voice of God,” you better be darn well that you aren’t putting words into God’s mouth. 99% of the time, that means scripture. Think about it. The congregation participates in the responsorial psalm, which is often in the voice of God (“I am the Lord your God, hear my voice”), and also during Masses with music, if the musical setting of the proper chants allows it, or even (possibly) during masses without music.

GIRM no. 48:
…If there is no singing at the Entrance, the antiphon given in the Missal is recited either by the faithful, or by some of them, or by a reader…

So there is nothing wrong with singing in the voice of God per se (hey, read the psalms), but I agree that putting words in God’s mouth is a very bad idea.

Cat, I am sorry that you think that I dislike these song merely because of personal preference. I (and many others) don’t sing these songs because we do no feel comfortable with lyrics that we find turn the focus away from God and rather to our selves. I am more concerned with the appropriateness of the hymn than personal preferences.

I am glad that the Holy Spirit spoke to you through a particular song, but would you merrily accept and sing along with only Gregorian Chant just because that is how the Holy Spirit spoke to me? Obviously the argument that theses songs get more people to sing is not 100% true since more people sing the Kyrie in our parish than the 8 contemporary hymns that are generally used 95% of the year.

I think through the centuries, many more have been spoken to the holy spirit through chant and polyphony. If that is our measuring stick, we should be having those almost exclusively… but somehow, Cat, I think you’ll come up with an answer against that.

But then again, we should be using chant and polyphony extensively not because of personal experiences, but because the church asks for it.

 

[Cat]

Expanding upon this point, look at a comparison between the two.

Holy God, we praise Thy Name;
Lord of all, we bow before Thee!
All on earth Thy scepter claim,
All in Heaven above adore Thee;
Infinite Thy vast domain,
Everlasting is Thy reign.​

Here I am Lord
Is it I Lord?
I have heard you calling in the night
I will go Lord
If you lead me
I will hold your people in my heart.

Look at the difference. In Holy God, we praise Thy Name, we are praising God in very high and ornate language (hey, almost like the new translation!), and it is actually a metrical translation/adaptation of the Te Deum, a liturgical hymn sung in the liturgy of the hours, and other liturgical services. The point is that through out the whole song, the focus is clearly and exclusively on God, his angels, the trinity, the saints, etc… very catholic.

In Here I am, Lord, it’s quite a different story. Just look at the main refrain.

Here I am. I heard you. I’ll do this. I’ll do that. Do this for me, and I’ll do that.

Aside from sounding very down to earth and self centered, don’t you think that’s even a little prideful, considering you are speaking to the most powerful being in the universe, it’s creator?

There is nothing wrong with the congregation singing “in the voice of God.” However, if you are going to be singing “in the voice of God,” you better be darn well that you aren’t putting words into God’s mouth. 99% of the time, that means scripture. Think about it. The congregation participates in the responsorial psalm, which is often in the voice of God (“I am the Lord your God, hear my voice”), and also during Masses with music, if the musical setting of the proper chants allows it, or even (possibly) during masses without music.

GIRM no. 48:
…If there is no singing at the Entrance, the antiphon given in the Missal is recited either by the faithful, or by some of them, or by a reader…

So there is nothing wrong with singing in the voice of God per se (hey, read the psalms), but I agree that putting words in God’s mouth is a very bad idea.

I think through the centuries, many more have been spoken to the holy spirit through chant and polyphony. If that is our measuring stick, we should be having those almost exclusively… but somehow, Cat, I think you’ll come up with an answer against that.

But then again, we should be using chant and polyphony extensively not because of personal experiences, but because the church asks for it.

The chorus to the hymn, “Here I Am, Lord” is from I Samuel 3. The boy Samuel hears the voice of God calling to him in the night. He doesn’t realize that it is God, and instead, runs to Eli, his guardian, and says, “Here I am!”

Eli doesn’t understand what’s happening at first, but after the “call in the night” is repeated, Eli realizes that God is calling to Samuel and tells him to say, “Speak, Lord, for Thy servant is listening.”

It seems to me that words straight from Scripture are high and lofty enough for a hymn.

Maybe that’s why my husband and I were touchde by Here I Am, Lord. As evangelical Protestants, we immediately recognized the Scriptural basis of the song, and we knew that Samuel was a man of God who never in his life strayed away from God, but was always obedient, and was key to ushering in the Era of the Kings and the Davidic Covenant, which would eventually lead to the birth of The King of Kings and Lord of Lords. To us, the hymn was a powerful statement from God Himself. To us, the only logical response to the hymn was to answer the Lord and say, “Speak, Lord, for Thy servants are listening.”

Many Catholics, on the other hand, often have little knowledg of the Bible, so no wonder they think the song is just hippie language. They don’t know the proper response because they’ve never of Samuel, let alone actually read his story in I Samuel, or even know where that book is in the Old Testament.

At that time in our lives, we did not need to hear praises to God. Most of the evangelical churches that we had attended devoted at least 20 minutes of the worship service to pure praise of God, mostly in modern songs, but at the traditional worship services, you can still hear the traditional hymns like Holy God We Praise Thy Name.

We were steeped in praise and worship of the Lord God Almighty.

We had no problem ascribing to God the Honor and Glory that He alone deserves.

What we needed at that time was to know what God wanted us to do, since we had been kicked out of our evangelical church and were wandering the earth like refugees, seeking a church home. After the cruel treatment we had suffered at that evangelical Protestant church, I told my husband, “I will NOT ever join a church again unless I am wooed with love and affection, into that church, by God Himself.”

And the hymn, “Here I Am, Lord,” spoke in 1st Person in the Voice of God Himself, and called us in our “night” to do His will.

It seems to me that perhaps many Catholics need to hear the Voice of God and say “Yes” to what He is asking them to do. There are an awful lot of Catholics who live life the way they want to live and only go to Mass out of obligation. Their faith is not personal to them, and even though they believe in God and accept Him as the Supreme Being, they do not hear Him calling in the night because they aren’t listening.

 

[TrueLight]

The chorus to the hymn, “Here I Am, Lord” is from I Samuel 3. The boy Samuel hears the voice of God calling to him in the night. He doesn’t realize that it is God, and instead, runs to Eli, his guardian, and says, “Here I am!”

Eli doesn’t understand what’s happening at first, but after the “call in the night” is repeated, Eli realizes that God is calling to Samuel and tells him to say, “Speak, Lord, for Thy servant is listening.”

It seems to me that words straight from Scripture are high and lofty enough for a hymn.

Maybe that’s why my husband and I were touchde by Here I Am, Lord. As evangelical Protestants, we immediately recognized the Scriptural basis of the song, and we knew that Samuel was a man of God who never in his life strayed away from God, but was always obedient, and was key to ushering in the Era of the Kings and the Davidic Covenant, which would eventually lead to the birth of The King of Kings and Lord of Lords. To us, the hymn was a powerful statement from God Himself. To us, the only logical response to the hymn was to answer the Lord and say, “Speak, Lord, for Thy servants are listening.”

Many Catholics, on the other hand, often have little knowledg of the Bible, so no wonder they think the song is just hippie language. They don’t know the proper response because they’ve never of Samuel, let alone actually read his story in I Samuel, or even know where that book is in the Old Testament.

At that time in our lives, we did not need to hear praises to God. Most of the evangelical churches that we had attended devoted at least 20 minutes of the worship service to pure praise of God, mostly in modern songs, but at the traditional worship services, you can still hear the traditional hymns like Holy God We Praise Thy Name.

We were steeped in praise and worship of the Lord God Almighty.

We had no problem ascribing to God the Honor and Glory that He alone deserves.

What we needed at that time was to know what God wanted us to do, since we had been kicked out of our evangelical church and were wandering the earth like refugees, seeking a church home. After the cruel treatment we had suffered at that evangelical Protestant church, I told my husband, “I will NOT ever join a church again unless I am wooed with love and affection, into that church, by God Himself.”

And the hymn, “Here I Am, Lord,” spoke in 1st Person in the Voice of God Himself, and called us in our “night” to do His will.

It seems to me that perhaps many Catholics need to hear the Voice of God and say “Yes” to what He is asking them to do. There are an awful lot of Catholics who live life the way they want to live and only go to Mass out of obligation. Their faith is not personal to them, and even though they believe in God and accept Him as the Supreme Being, they do not hear Him calling in the night because they aren’t listening.

Thanks for taking the time to explain the Biblical basis.

I honestly don’t know how anyone can object to a song about saying yes to God’s call and will.

Sometimes I feel people just jump on the bandwagon and object to anything outside of Gregoran chant, because they think it is the proper Traditional thing to do.

Yes, Gregorian chant and polyphonic music for the most part, but there is nothing wrong with a communion hymn or a recessional hymn.

I thank God I was raised in a rich tradition of hymns. Otherwise, I’d know like 5 hymns.

Y’all don’t know what you’re missing.

And please don’t say “it’s not about us”. What is more important than the state of your soul? Anything that can help to draw you closer to God is a blessing.

 

[ProVobis]

The chorus to the hymn, “Here I Am, Lord” is from I Samuel 3. The boy Samuel hears the voice of God calling to him in the night. He doesn’t realize that it is God, and instead, runs to Eli, his guardian, and says, “Here I am!”

That may be, and I’m not going to defend Catholic ignorance of the exact words from some English Bible, but what’s the theological value of replacing the entire Offertory, which is an intregral part of the Mass, with this or six verses of “On Eagle’s Wings,” even if it is scripturally based? Now either you want the congregation to fully participate in the Mass and the prescribed readings for the day at the proper time in the proper manner or you don’t. Now I understand they take up collections and the choir sings at the EF as well but ordinarily it doesn’t cut into participation or following of the Mass. Big difference as I see it.

 

[liturgyluver]

That may be, and I’m not going to defend Catholic ignorance of the exact words from some English Bible, but what’s the theological value of replacing the entire Offertory, which is an intregral part of the Mass, with this or six verses of “On Eagle’s Wings,” even if it is scripturally based? Now either you want the congregation to fully participate in the Mass and the prescribed readings for the day at the proper time in the proper manner or you don’t. Now I understand they take up collections and the choir sings at the EF as well but ordinarily it doesn’t cut into participation or following of the Mass. Big difference as I see it.

Unless I have misunderstood, I thought an earlier poster had already showed that the rubrics allow these to be missed when the organ is played, or there is a chant or song? I would rather the mass was not compromised in any way, but if it’s allowed then it’s allowed: it doesn’t really matter what you or I think. If it’s not allowed, why aren’t the prayers simply said after the gifts have been presented and the hymn has concluded? I have just looked at the new mass translation card and this is what it suggests should happen.

You seem to be focussing on the offertory hymn: Do you have an objection to the processional and recessional hymns as well?

 

[Warrenton]

I am 54 years old, and in my world, which obviously isn’t your world, singing with my Christian brothers and sisters is a foretaste of what heaven will be like.

Hopefully, we won’t be singing the songs like “Taste and See,” or at least not after we get out of Purgatory.

 

[Corki]

Hopefully, we won’t be singing the songs like “Taste and See,” or at least not after we get out of Purgatory.

So are you implying that using OCP’s Breaking Bread hymnal might be an indulgenced act that we can offer up along with other crosses we bear on earth?

 

[Warrenton]

So are you implying that using OCP’s Breaking Bread hymnal might be an indulgenced act that we can offer up along with other crosses we bear on earth?

 

[Jean_Anthony]

aaa

 

[ProVobis]

I would rather the mass was not compromised in any way, but if it’s allowed then it’s allowed:

A lot of things are allowed but it seems like it’s being pushed. I asked what was the theological justification for it to someone who seems very critical of those who’d rather want to concentrate on the Mass and not share in her personal preferences.

Do you have an objection to the processional and recessional hymns as well?

As long as they don’t cut into the Mass and are suitable for the occasion, sing away. At the Masses I attend, the Introit is chanted by the choir in Latin during the procession so I definitely do not have any objection to that.

 

[RosalieM]

Hopefully, we won’t be singing the songs like “Taste and See,” or at least not after we get out of Purgatory.

 

[ProVobis]

So are you implying that using OCP’s Breaking Bread hymnal might be an indulgenced act that we can offer up along with other crosses we bear on earth?

That hymnal should get all the souls out of Purgatory.

 

[Usige]

So are you implying that using OCP’s Breaking Bread hymnal might be an indulgenced act that we can offer up along with other crosses we bear on earth?

That hymnal should get all the souls out of Purgatory.

Thank you both for a smile. Next time I am subject to “One Bread, One Body” followed by “Taste and See” I will just remember to offer up my suffering for all the musicians in Purgatory.

So is it a plenary indulgence if your only hymnal is Breaking Bread and are lead by cantor that sounds like they are singing through mud in the bottom of a well? Nothing lifts the soul like the brady bunch theme sang by a tibetan throat singer.