SPLIT: The Church is not perfect

[Lisa44]

You know what? I’m a recent convert and I’m having problem with the idea of “obedience” as it is projected here by Catholics.
Firstly, all people err. Secondly, the Church makes mistakes too. Priests make mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes.
This idea that you have to be 100% obedient to everything “Catholic” is very hard to digest. Does that mean you stop thinking? You just become a zombie and say “Yes sir, yes church…”

My Priest told me I didn’t need the Eucharist that it wasn’t necessary for salvation.
I was baptized by a Catholic Church in a state of Mortal Sin.
I know other Catholics who have been told by Priests they must pay thousands of dollars to get a marriage annulled that wasn’t done in the church and therefore not acknowledged.

There are so many abuses and mistakes that go on the fact that Catholics on this website can just talk like the Church is this glimmering diamond that is perfection in all ways is an absolute joke.

Bluck.

No one is perfect.
I have to try and figure out as a PERSON why my Priest would tell me this? I have to figure out as a PERSON why this church that baptized me baptized me in a state of mortal sin! I have to figure ALL this out as a person and no church that I have been to has been perfect. Maybe I’ve just been to a string of bad churches with bad Priests eh? Well remember, according to half of the people here on this website there are no imperfect churches and there are no imperfect Priests.

And if you are dissobedient…ohhhhhh…woe is you.
Well are we to be obedient to mistakes?
Are we to be zombies or humans?

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

This idea that you have to be 100% obedient to everything “Catholic” is very hard to digest. Does that mean you stop thinking? You just become a zombie and say “Yes sir, yes church…”

It’s more like you recognize that you aren’t the center of the universe. Yes, of course you have opinions. But you also recognize that the Church has been around for 2000 years and she’s learned a lot in that time. She doesn’t sway in the breeze of culture and opinion but teaches the truth.

My Priest told me I didn’t need the Eucharist that it wasn’t necessary for salvation.

Do you think that a baby who is baptized but dies before receiving his First Communion is going to hell? If your answer is no, then you would be saying that the Eucharist is not necessary for salvation.

I was baptized by a Catholic Church in a state of Mortal Sin.

It sounds like you should have received more instruction before being baptized. Someone should have explained to you that baptism removes all sin. How would you have expected to remove your sins prior to baptism since baptism is required before receiving other sacraments such as Reconciliation?

I know other Catholics who have been told by Priests they must pay thousands of dollars to get a marriage annulled that wasn’t done in the church and therefore not acknowledged.

People can say all sorts of things. That’s not proof.

There are so many abuses and mistakes that go on the fact that Catholics on this website can just talk like the Church is this glimmering diamond that is perfection in all ways is an absolute joke.

On the one hand, the Church is made up of sinners, so the Church as people is not perfection.

On the other hand, Jesus founded the Church and promised that the gates of hell would not prevail.against it.

Are we to be zombies or humans?

There’s so much anger in your message. Clearly there must have been something that attracted you to the Church and led you to baptism. I pray that you’ll be able to find that “something” once again.

 

[Lisa44]

It’s more like you recognize that you aren’t the center of the universe. Yes, of course you have opinions. But you also recognize that the Church has been around for 2000 years and she’s learned a lot in that time. She doesn’t sway in the breeze of culture and opinion but teaches the truth.

That is what I’m trying to tell to the contrary in some cases, that you will not hear.

Do you think that a baby who is baptized but dies before receiving his First Communion is going to hell? If your answer is no, then you would be saying that the Eucharist is not necessary for salvation.

I am not a baby, I’m an adult convert.

It sounds like you should have received more instruction before being baptized. Someone should have explained to you that baptism removes all sin. How would you have expected to remove your sins prior to baptism since baptism is required before receiving other sacraments such as Reconciliation?

Interesting choice of words: “should”, yes, as erring humans there are a lot of things that “should” have been done.

I think you misunderstand. “Baptized in a state or mortal sin”. What is a “state of mortal sin?” do you know? “A state of mortal sin” means that the person is in a “state” wherein a serious sin is being recommitted. For instance, when a Catholic is married outside the church and has marital relations. That is a “state of mortal sin”. According to cannon law people are not supposed to be baptized in a state of mortal sin. Otherwise, they are condemning themselves.
As a married convert to the faith I was not told I was in a “state of mortal sin” nor was I told to get MARRIED in the church before being baptized as per cannon law.

But, thats right, according to you the church never makes mistakes do they? I must be a liar. Right. Yes.

People can say all sorts of things. That’s not proof.

Are you accusing me of lying again? I am not speaking of a rumor, I am speaking of personal experience, and also the experience of other family members. But, according to you, this never happens. Priests and Catholic churches are never wrong. Right, yes,

On the one hand, the Church is made up of sinners, so the Church as people is not perfection.

On the other hand, Jesus founded the Church and promised that the gates of hell would not prevail.against it.

Right, but even you must know that this does not mean that no Priest will ever be wrong!? Goodness gracious we are stuped in ignorance aren’t we.

There’s so much anger in your message. Clearly there must have been something that attracted you to the Church and led you to baptism. I pray that you’ll be able to find that “something” once again.

Can you blame me when I speak my “truth” and experience as a Catholic and you say that I am wrong? Yet you don’t even know me? Your blind faith is so strong that you will accuse other people of lying before you will admit that people make mistakes. This is precisely the dark faith that I am speaking of. Its a faith that will admit no light.

I don’t need you to condescend to me that I will be able to recieve “something”?
Peace be with you, sincerely,
And thank you for illustrating my point.

 

[japhy]

the Church makes mistakes too. Priests make mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes.

The Church is holy and sinless. It’s the people who make up the Church who are sinners. Just because a priest or a bishop believes something does NOT mean that the Church believes that thing.

This idea that you have to be 100% obedient to everything “Catholic” is very hard to digest. Does that mean you stop thinking? You just become a zombie and say “Yes sir, yes church…”

Imagine, for a moment, that God tells you to do something, or tells you that such-and-such is the truth. Are you a “zombie” for doing what God tells you to do, or believing what He tells you is the truth? No, we’re not zombies. We all have free will. But our free will is meant for us to freely accept and believe all truth revealed by God. If you want to disagree with God, by all means, go ahead… but don’t think that God is secretly thinking “Yes, that’s a good girl! Resist authority! Think for yourself! Do it your way!” when you do so.

The Church was established by God. Jesus Christ is the head of the Church, which is his body. Jesus ordained it to be governed by men… yes, sinners. But he also guards it from teaching error in faith and morals. If the Church solemnly teaches that Mary was conceived without sin, remained a virgin before, during, and forever after the birth of Christ, and was assumed into Heaven, it’s true, because God revealed it to His Church.

Do Catholics necessarily understand everything? No. That would be mighty impressive. But we are called by Scripture to respond to God with the obedience of faith.

I’m sorry you have been under the care of bad pastors. It is lamentable, and it can really mess with a person’s spiritual growth. Many people have left the Church because of priests and bishops. Some of these bad pastors don’t believe what the Church teaches, some are stuck in grievous sin. Pray for them.

Don’t jump off the ark because of the smell of the animals.

 

[FastLearner]

You know what? I’m a recent convert and I’m having problem with the idea of “obedience” as it is projected here by Catholics.

I think there’s some confusion here. First, let’s separate the “you must believe to be Catholic” (Doctrine) from the “rules you should follow” (Discipline):

Doctrine: These are things you must believe to be a Catholic. If you disagree, you joined the wrong religion. For example, if you do not believe Jesus died on the cross (say you believe he escaped alive and traveled to India), then you are not a Christian. That belief is required to be a Christian, as it defines what a Christian is. If you believe in sola scriptura and deny Sacred Tradition, you cannot be a Catholic, similar to how if you believed in infant baptism, you cannot be a Baptist or if you deny the Book of Mormon, you cannot be a Mormon. Catholics have other basic tenants (e.g. Apostolic Succession, Assumption of Mary, Transubstantiation) that you should have been taught and agreed with to be Confirmed into the Church.

Discipline: These are basically “rules” of the Church which you can disagree with. These can also change over time (Doctrine never changes). These rules do not define the Faith and you can challenge them if you want, but you need to abide by them. So someone could start a website calling for an end to priestly celibacy, and since that’s a discipline and not doctrine, that’s fine. But, if a priest were to violate the discipline and break his vow of celibacy, that would not be fine.

Firstly, all people err. Secondly, the Church makes mistakes too. Priests make mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes.

You can make a mistake, that’s expected. If you had to be without sin to be a Catholic, the pews would be empty on Sunday and clerical vestment stores would be out of business. The beauty is that when you err (not if), you can go to confession and be absolved of that sin.

Does that mean you stop thinking? You just become a zombie and say “Yes sir, yes church…”

Obedience and blind acceptance are two different things. Personally, I think it’s stupid that my town has a two lane road with a light in the middle (there was previously a street that is no longer in existence), but I still stop when the light is red. I write to the town, complain, and explain why it’s not necessary and needs to go, but I still stop. If I were to err and drive though the light, I’d have to pay a fine, but they wouldn’t expel me from the town.

It’s the same thing with the Church. Take, for instance, condoms. You might disagree with what the Church teaches about condoms, and that’s fine. You can argue against that point from a theological or practical perspective all you want (similar to writing a letter to city hall to complain about a traffic light). There’s nothing wrong with that. You can even be like most Catholics and disobey the Church (like running the light), but doing so places you in sin (like getting a ticket), which you repent and confess (like paying a fine). But being a sinner doesn’t ban you from the Church.

There are so many abuses and mistakes that go on the fact that Catholics on this website can just talk like the Church is this glimmering diamond that is perfection in all ways is an absolute joke.

Bluck.

What you see from some users on this website is what you usually see on subject-specific websites: people trying to outdo each other. Some people will harp on minute details to try to demonstrate that they know more than others, and some people will take extreme positions to prove that they are “more hard core” than others.

That’s why you see posts like “according to subsection 4 of sub-paragraph 3 of the decree of 487 AD by…” justifying that if a priest sneezes during consecration, it’s not a valid Mass and then write to the Congregation for Divine Worship in Rome demanding the excommunication of the priest (obviously an exaggeration, but you get the point) and others that take extreme opinions (just in the cohabitation thread, you can see the claims that going on a date without a chaperon is a sin and that those who cohabitate before married should be barred from every marrying).

At first, those sorts of posts actually weakened my faith, as well, but you have to realize that such an opinion and action is about that person trying to demonstrate something about themselves, and not about you or your situation.

 

[Lisa44]

The Church is holy and sinless. It’s the people who make up the Church who are sinners. Just because a priest or a bishop believes something does NOT mean that the Church believes that thing.

Imagine, for a moment, that God tells you to do something, or tells you that such-and-such is the truth. Are you a “zombie” for doing what God tells you to do, or believing what He tells you is the truth? No, we’re not zombies. We all have free will. But our free will is meant for us to freely accept and believe all truth revealed by God. If you want to disagree with God, by all means, go ahead… but don’t think that God is secretly thinking “Yes, that’s a good girl! Resist authority! Think for yourself! Do it your way!” when you do so.

The Church was established by God. Jesus Christ is the head of the Church, which is his body. Jesus ordained it to be governed by men… yes, sinners. But he also guards it from teaching error in faith and morals. If the Church solemnly teaches that Mary was conceived without sin, remained a virgin before, during, and forever after the birth of Christ, and was assumed into Heaven, it’s true, because God revealed it to His Church.

Do Catholics necessarily understand everything? No. That would be mighty impressive. But we are called by Scripture to respond to God with the obedience of faith.

I’m sorry you have been under the care of bad pastors. It is lamentable, and it can really mess with a person’s spiritual growth. Many people have left the Church because of priests and bishops. Some of these bad pastors don’t believe what the Church teaches, some are stuck in grievous sin. Pray for them.

Don’t jump off the ark because of the smell of the animals.

Hi Japhy
You said: the church is sinless.
People who make up the church are sinners.

If the church is sinless, and the church is made up of people, and the people are sinners, then how can the church be sinless?

Question 2-

Do you put God and the church on the same level?

 

[Lisa44]

I think there’s some confusion here. First, let’s separate the “you must believe to be Catholic” (Doctrine) from the “rules you should follow” (Discipline):

Doctrine: These are things you must believe to be a Catholic. If you disagree, you joined the wrong religion. For example, if you do not believe Jesus died on the cross (say you believe he escaped alive and traveled to India), then you are not a Christian. That belief is required to be a Christian, as it defines what a Christian is. If you believe in sola scriptura and deny Sacred Tradition, you cannot be a Catholic, similar to how if you believed in infant baptism, you cannot be a Baptist or if you deny the Book of Mormon, you cannot be a Mormon. Catholics have other basic tenants (e.g. Apostolic Succession, Assumption of Mary, Transubstantiation) that you should have been taught and agreed with to be Confirmed into the Church.

True.

Discipline: These are basically “rules” of the Church which you can disagree with. These can also change over time (Doctrine never changes). These rules do not define the Faith and you can challenge them if you want, but you need to abide by them. So someone could start a website calling for an end to priestly celibacy, and since that’s a discipline and not doctrine, that’s fine. But, if a priest were to violate the discipline and break his vow of celibacy, that would not be fine.

You can make a mistake, that’s expected. If you had to be without sin to be a Catholic, the pews would be empty on Sunday and clerical vestment stores would be out of business. The beauty is that when you err (not if), you can go to confession and be absolved of that sin.

True. If you have a church that still encourages confession.

Obedience and blind acceptance are two different things. Personally, I think it’s stupid that my town has a two lane road with a light in the middle (there was previously a street that is no longer in existence), but I still stop when the light is red. I write to the town, complain, and explain why it’s not necessary and needs to go, but I still stop. If I were to err and drive though the light, I’d have to pay a fine, but they wouldn’t expel me from the town.

It’s the same thing with the Church. Take, for instance, condoms. You might disagree with what the Church teaches about condoms, and that’s fine. You can argue against that point from a theological or practical perspective all you want (similar to writing a letter to city hall to complain about a traffic light). There’s nothing wrong with that. You can even be like most Catholics and disobey the Church (like running the light), but doing so places you in sin (like getting a ticket), which you repent and confess (like paying a fine). But being a sinner doesn’t ban you from the Church.

What you see from some users on this website is what you usually see on subject-specific websites: people trying to outdo each other. Some people will harp on minute details to try to demonstrate that they know more than others, and some people will take extreme positions to prove that they are “more hard core” than others.

OK

That’s why you see posts like “according to subsection 4 of sub-paragraph 3 of the decree of 487 AD by…” justifying that if a priest sneezes during consecration, it’s not a valid Mass and then write to the Congregation for Divine Worship in Rome demanding the excommunication of the priest (obviously an exaggeration, but you get the point) and others that take extreme opinions (just in the cohabitation thread, you can see the claims that going on a date without a chaperon is a sin and that those who cohabitate before married should be barred from every marrying).

At first, those sorts of posts actually weakened my faith, as well, but you have to realize that such an opinion and action is about that person trying to demonstrate something about themselves, and not about you or your situation.

OK. But when people use “obedience” to sweep every little thing under the carpet I get mad. Like when people ask how the Pope can say we worship with the Muslims and someone answers - YOURE NOT BEING OBEDIENT! Or, someone asks why one council contradicts Vat II and people say - YOU"RE NOT BEING OBEDIENT!..

this sort of attitude gets old real fast. that is what I meant by being a human and not a zombie. No one can shut off their intellect nor should they. And part of studying is asking questions and part of being human is trying to reconcile contraditions and paradoxes. Thanks for your reply.

 

[japhy]

If the church is sinless, and the church is made up of people, and the people are sinners, then how can the church be sinless?

Because the Holy Spirit says it is![21] Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ. [22] Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. [23] For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church, his body, and is himself its Savior. [24] As the Church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands.

[25] Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her, [26] that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, [27] that he might present the Church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. [28] Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. [29] For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the Church, [30] because we are members of his body.

[31] “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” [32] This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the Church; [33] however, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Ephesians 5:21-33​

Do you put God and the church on the same level?

No. The Church is not God, but the Church is…

1. 
   *]the household of God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth (1 Tim 3:15),
   *]the body of Christ (Eph 1:22-23; Col 1:18, 24), and
   *]his mystical Bride (2 Cor 11:2; Eph 5:21-33; Rev 19:7; 21:2, 9-10).
   
   The Church is not like any other institution on earth. Just as Jesus Christ, the Son of God, has two natures (human and divine) in one Divine Person, so too the Church, which is his body, has both divine and human components which cannot be separated from each other.

 

[FastLearner]

OK. But when people use “obedience” to sweep every little thing under the carpet I get mad. Like when people ask how the Pope can say we worship with the Muslims and someone answers - YOURE NOT BEING OBEDIENT! Or, someone asks why one council contradicts Vat II and people say - YOU"RE NOT BEING OBEDIENT!..

No one should say that to you. Even an infallible teaching should be explained. Now, if you disagree with a divine revelation, that should be pointed out, since disagreeing with a divine revelation fundamental undermines the Church’s authority, and thus Catholicism.

If God tells the Church something, and the Church tells you what God said, and you refuse to accept that as truth, either you think 1) God was wrong, 2) God lied to the Church, 3) the Church lied about what God said, 4) the Church misunderstood God, or 5) the Church didn’t actually talk to God. Either way, you can’t be Catholic and believe any of those occurred.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

aaa

 

[Lisa44]

No one should say that to you. Even an infallible teaching should be explained. Now, if you disagree with a divine revelation, that should be pointed out, since disagreeing with a divine revelation fundamental undermines the Church’s authority, and thus Catholicism.

If God tells the Church something, and the Church tells you what God said, and you refuse to accept that as truth, either you think 1) God was wrong, 2) God lied to the Church, 3) the Church lied about what God said, 4) the Church misunderstood God, or 5) the Church didn’t actually talk to God. Either way, you can’t be Catholic and believe any of those occurred.

How did this become a new thread?

Hi Fastlearner,
Lets take an ecumenical council. Are you saying an ecumenical council is “God tells the church something”?

 

[FCEGM]

Hi Japhy
You said: the church is sinless.
People who make up the church are sinners.

If the church is sinless, and the church is made up of people, and the people are sinners, then how can the church be sinless?

Question 2-

Do you put God and the church on the same level?

Yes, the Church is sinless, Lisa. This article may help you understand why:

bringyou.to/apologetics/a45.htm

 

[japhy]

How did this become a new thread?

A moderator split it from its original thread because it was a new topic.

Lets take an ecumenical council. Are you saying an ecumenical council is “God tells the church something”?

I’m not sure I’d explain it that way. But when an Ecumenical Council gathers together and defines a doctrine or dogma infallibly, it is protected from error by God. That means that the Councils which have defined the doctrines of the Trinity, the Virgin Birth, Transubstantiation, etc., have done so with certitude that they have not taught error.

 

[steve_b]

You know what? I’m a recent convert and I’m having problem with the idea of “obedience” as it is projected here by Catholics.
Firstly, all people err. Secondly, the Church makes mistakes too. Priests make mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes.
This idea that you have to be 100% obedient to everything “Catholic” is very hard to digest. Does that mean you stop thinking? You just become a zombie and say “Yes sir, yes church…”

My Priest told me I didn’t need the Eucharist that it wasn’t necessary for salvation.

What the priest said is an exception not the rule.

Jesus made it very clear

[Jn 6:53…]

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56* He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58* This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever." 59* This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Caperna-um. 60 Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61* But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, "Do you take offense at this?

lisa:

I was baptized by a Catholic Church in a state of Mortal Sin.

In your conversion process, (RCIA) didn’t you go to confession first in preperation of your upcoming baptism? If you did, did you purposefully leave out confessing your mortal sin?

Sacramental confession usually requires that one is already baptized. In your case, you were preparing for baptism

Baptism as you know, wipes out ALL past sins including mortal. Post baptism however, confession is required for future mortal sin to restore your soul to sanctifying grace

Lisa:

I know other Catholics who have been told by Priests they must pay thousands of dollars to get a marriage annulled that wasn’t done in the church and therefore not acknowledged.

Generally it’s $500-$600. That’s for clerical expenses. There’s usually lot’s of people that need contacting and records to be investigated and kept track of. Letters, phone calls, etc etc etc. The process takes 1+ years. Not as long if the problem is merely form. But if it is NOT a matter of form, the process, is not a gurantee that an anullment is granted. But one is needed if one is to get remarried in the Church after a divorce.

Lisa:

There are so many abuses and mistakes that go on the fact that Catholics on this website can just talk like the Church is this glimmering diamond that is perfection in all ways is an absolute joke.

Bluck.

No one is perfect.
I have to try and figure out as a PERSON why my Priest would tell me this? I have to figure out as a PERSON why this church that baptized me baptized me in a state of mortal sin! I have to figure ALL this out as a person and no church that I have been to has been perfect. Maybe I’ve just been to a string of bad churches with bad Priests eh? Well remember, according to half of the people here on this website there are no imperfect churches and there are no imperfect Priests.

And if you are dissobedient…ohhhhhh…woe is you.
Well are we to be obedient to mistakes?
Are we to be zombies or humans?

The Church gives you all the “official” information written out, you need to be properly formed in your conscience…you don’t need to rely on opinions of poorly formed individuals in their training and faith that you might run into. The Church has made her official teaching available to everyone to read. Her teaching is not a secret. It’s not hidden for only a few to know the “official” teaching. The amount of education the Church provides is avalanche proportion.

Here’s a great start… the Catechism search engine
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

I have personally sponsored a few converts into the Church. I bought them the Catechism and we discussed questions from the Catechism and used it throughout the RCIA process.

All priests and bishops teaching should line up with the teaching found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

 

[thistle]

No one should say that to you. Even an infallible teaching should be explained. Now, if you disagree with a divine revelation, that should be pointed out, since disagreeing with a divine revelation fundamental undermines the Church’s authority, and thus Catholicism.

If God tells the Church something, and the Church tells you what God said, and you refuse to accept that as truth, either you think 1) God was wrong, 2) God lied to the Church, 3) the Church lied about what God said, 4) the Church misunderstood God, or 5) the Church didn’t actually talk to God. Either way, you can’t be Catholic and believe any of those occurred.

All teachings ARE explained. Haven’t you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church?
It is a summary of all teachings (doctrine and discipline) with explanations, and footnotes referencing Scripture, Councils, and Church Documents.
Read that and then come back with specific questions.

 

[JustaServant]

You know what? I’m a recent convert and I’m having problem with the idea of “obedience” as it is projected here by Catholics.

I’m going to focus on this part of your post, because I beleive it is important. I am a revert and spent over twenty years away from the Church.
When you converted, were you aware of what you were walking into? I encourage converts to take their eyes off of what they see physically. If you have your eyes on the Church as it LOOKS many times, it can be discouraging. But if you have your eyes on the eternal, the Church Christ founded, the Church of Francis of Assisi, Thomas Aquinas, Sr. Lucy of Fatima, joy is the only response one can have. Being a Catholic is INTENSLY personal, and requires humility. Because unlike the evangelical, to whom a personal relationship becomes EXCLUSIVE, our relationship is not with just those who think like us. No, our Church is made up of people who are NOT like us in many, many ways, and sometimes that includes members of the clergy. We must lead by example.
When you’re filled with the joy of the Lord, obedience is like breathing. You dont even know you’re doing it.
Hope that helps.
Jim

 

[grannymh]

My Priest told me I didn’t need the Eucharist that it wasn’t necessary for salvation.

 

[grannymh]

Please note correction to post 16

The remark regarding Eucharist being necessary for salvation is technically correct but extremely stupid.

It should read:

The remark regarding the Eucharist as not being necessary for salvation is technically correct, but it is extremely stupid.

 

[FCEGM]

I’m going to focus on this part of your post, because I beleive it is important. I am a revert and spent over twenty years away from the Church.
When you converted, were you aware of what you were walking into? I encourage converts to take their eyes off of what they see physically. If you have your eyes on the Church as it LOOKS many times, it can be discouraging. But if you have your eyes on the eternal, the Church Christ founded, the Church of Francis of Assisi, Thomas Aquinas, Sr. Lucy of Fatima, joy is the only response one can have. Being a Catholic is INTENSLY personal, and requires humility. Because unlike the evangelical, to whom a personal relationship becomes EXCLUSIVE, our relationship is not with just those who think like us. No, our Church is made up of people who are NOT like us in many, many ways, and sometimes that includes members of the clergy. We must lead by example.
When you’re filled with the joy of the Lord, obedience is like breathing. You dont even know you’re doing it.
Hope that helps.
Jim

Jim, this is an excellent post that bears repeating.

 

[Lisa44]

A moderator split it from its original thread because it was a new topic.

I’m not sure I’d explain it that way. But when an Ecumenical Council gathers together and defines a doctrine or dogma infallibly, it is protected from error by God. That means that the Councils which have defined the doctrines of the Trinity, the Virgin Birth, Transubstantiation, etc., have done so with certitude that they have not taught error.

Hi Japhy,

What if its God’s will that a mistake is made?