SPLIT: The Church is not perfect

[grannymh]

Hi Japhy,

What if its God’s will that a mistake is made?

Jesus promised the Holy Spirit and that promise was fulfilled so that there would not be a mistake regarding Divine Revelation.

 

[cazayoux]

Hi Japhy,

What if its God’s will that a mistake is made?

Jesus IS truth.

John 14:6
[6] Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

Jesus teaching untruth is not possible.
This would show him to be divided against himself.

michel

 

[Lisa44]

Yes, the Church is sinless, Lisa. This article may help you understand why:

bringyou.to/apologetics/a45.htm

Hi FCEGM,

From the article-

…"When, therefore, any individual personally departs in his actions and beliefs from Christ (like rejecting the Perpetual Virginity of Christ’s Holy Mother, e.g.) such a person is not acting as a member of the Church but on his own…

In sum, it is vital to see that in fallible, sinful humans there is the wisdom and life that comes by grace from Christ while at the same time another (sinful, erroneous, imprudent) “approach” to life that does not, and the part that does not is thus not of the Church’s being or activity, which must always mean incorporated and related to Christ; thus when the individual sins, the Church in him does not! Now to the outsider considering by reason alone the Church as a societal phenomenon like any other social group, those without this “knowledge of faith” simply do not see the reality of Christ-Church as supernatural in nature and source and go by appearances and conclude the Church erred, the Church persecuted, etc… But that is not the Truth. The individual erred, persecuted; the administrators of the Church did such and such not stemming from Christ and so not stemming from the Church. That’s how intimate the nature of the reality of the Church is. And the sin and error in individuals and to some degree in social structures of human (not divine) origin inhibit the Church from spreading, manifesting its true nature (as infallibly joined to Christ in a Mystical, i.e., supernatural, Marriage that is indissoluble) and hinder its mission."

This makes sense. If I interpret it correctly, then its saying that if someone inside the Church errs, then its the person and not the church. EXCEPT, for infallability regarding the Pope?

 

[FCEGM]

Hi FCEGM,

From the article-

…"When, therefore, any individual personally departs in his actions and beliefs from Christ (like rejecting the Perpetual Virginity of Christ’s Holy Mother, e.g.) such a person is not acting as a member of the Church but on his own…

In sum, it is vital to see that in fallible, sinful humans there is the wisdom and life that comes by grace from Christ while at the same time another (sinful, erroneous, imprudent) “approach” to life that does not, and the part that does not is thus not of the Church’s being or activity, which must always mean incorporated and related to Christ; thus when the individual sins, the Church in him does not! Now to the outsider considering by reason alone the Church as a societal phenomenon like any other social group, those without this “knowledge of faith” simply do not see the reality of Christ-Church as supernatural in nature and source and go by appearances and conclude the Church erred, the Church persecuted, etc… But that is not the Truth. The individual erred, persecuted; the administrators of the Church did such and such not stemming from Christ and so not stemming from the Church. That’s how intimate the nature of the reality of the Church is. And the sin and error in individuals and to some degree in social structures of human (not divine) origin inhibit the Church from spreading, manifesting its true nature (as infallibly joined to Christ in a Mystical, i.e., supernatural, Marriage that is indissoluble) and hinder its mission."

This makes sense. If I interpret it correctly, then its saying that if someone inside the Church errs, then its the person and not the church. EXCEPT, for infallability regarding the Pope?

I’m glad you found the article helpful, Lisa. And right (if I’m reading you correctly); the Pope can sin personally and even err in personal opinions, but not when promulgating the Faith in a matter of Faith and/or Morals. He is preserved from teaching erroneously what must be held by all the Faithful.

 

[japhy]

What if its God’s will that a mistake is made?

God does not will sin, although He may permit it (as He did with our first parents).

But the role of the Holy Spirit in the Church is this: “These things I [Jesus] have spoken to you, while I am still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. … I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth.” (John 14:25-26; 16:12-13)

God may permit His Church to make prudential and social mistakes (and to chastise it as a consequence), but He does not permit His Church to teach anything other than the true faith.

 

[LilyM]

Hi Japhy
You said: the church is sinless.
People who make up the church are sinners.

If the church is sinless, and the church is made up of people, and the people are sinners, then how can the church be sinless?

Because the Church is a supernatural and not just a natural institution. Being in fact the Body of Christ itself, it is much more than the sum of its fallible human parts.

Question 2-

Do you put God and the church on the same level?

Well, Jesus said to the Apostles ‘what you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, what you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven’ and ‘whoever hears you hears Me, whoever rejects you rejects Me’.

Someone gave the Apostles, and through them the Church, governing authority in matters spiritual. Which doesn’t mean they’re on the same level as God by any means, who is all perfect in every circumstance. Just that under some circumstances (such as ex cathedra and Council teachings) their teachings and doings ARE protected by the Holy Spirit.

We didn’t make this stuff up ourselves, it’s there in scripture.

 

[japhy]

If I interpret it correctly, then its saying that if someone inside the Church errs, then its the person and not the church. EXCEPT, for infallability regarding the Pope?

The doctrine of the infallibility of the Pope is perhaps (ironically so!) the most incorrectly quoted doctrine of the Church. It does not say (or even hint) that the Pope is an impeccable person, incapable of committing sin or teaching error.

What it says is this:

• when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA,
• that is, when,
  1. **in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, **
  2. **in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, **
  3. **he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church, **
  4. he possesses,
  5. by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter,
  6. that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.
  7. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable.
  The Pope only has the charism of infallibility when “defining doctrine concerning faith or morals” in his instruction of the whole Church.

 

[Lisa44]

Thank you Japhy