SPLIT: The Eucharist in Scripture and Catholic teaching.

[Cal_Fullerton]

Wisdomseeker, I’m going to insert my answers in bold within my quotation of you. I think it will be easier.

do [Mormons] hold the Apostles in high regard like the CC does? Yes. do they claim the to have the Chair of St Peter? Yes. they teach what the Apostles teach? They think they do, just as you think you do. do you see them having any authority over the nations like the CC has? They don’t have as much influence, if that’s what you mean. do they have the line of succession like the CC does? They claim it left the earth due to backsliding, and was restored through Peter, John & James (not sure about those names) as they passed it to Joseph Smith when they appeared to Joseph.

Do you know when the mormons started? do you know when the CC started? do your research? Jesus started His Church. do mormons claim that Jesus found their congregation of believers? Yes.

The CC started long before the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints did, as you suggest. But that means nothing. There are many Protestant denominations that started in revival fire but a couple centuries later have lost their first love, lost their fire, and have backslidden to some extent.

You haven’t come up with the answer I’m looking for. I’m challenging you. It’s good to be challenged if you look to God to help you find the answers. The correct answer is in the Bible.
I don’t mind you challenging me.

God bless you in your efforts.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

You know Cal, you should thank God for Catholics. God has given Catholics the gift of patience, endurance, and perseverance, and a Holy Faith to tolerate so much disbelief.

I do thank the Lord for Catholics—especially those who truly know the Lord. I thank the CC for this forum. (Is it an official site of the CC?)
Do you thank God for Protestant believers in Jesus?

Really, we’re all Catholics in the true sense of the word. And we’re all Protestants protesting or rebelling against the evil of the devil and his cohorts.

I thank God for you, wisdomseeker.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

The next comment for me to reply to will be #131, PRmergers!
Is it at 200 that they cut off the discussion?

I’m going to suggest we talk about what we agree on at some point. I think that would please God. Often, when people discuss their disagreements they get to where they imagine they’re further apart than they really are.
Or, they may actually grow further apart. In a tug of war, we can pull so hard that we both end up in a ditch. I believe this has happened to some extent throughout church history.

Love to all.

 

[PRmerger]

I do thank the Lord for Catholics—especially those who truly know the Lord. I thank the CC for this forum. (Is it an official site of the CC?)

No, this is not an “official site” of the CC.

Do you thank God for Protestant believers in Jesus?

I’m glad that they believe in Jesus,–and thank God for that, but I’m not thankful that they’re Protestant.

 

[PRmerger]

The next comment for me to reply to will be #131, PRmergers!
Is it at 200 that they cut off the discussion?

Actually, it is 1000 posts, so we have lots more room to discuss!

I’m going to suggest we talk about what we agree on at some point. I think that would please God. Often, when people discuss their disagreements they get to where they imagine they’re further apart than they really are.
Or, they may actually grow further apart. In a tug of war, we can pull so hard that we both end up in a ditch. I believe this has happened to some extent throughout church history.

Love to all.

I can see what you’re saying, but the reason why we’re here and why CAF exists is because TRUTH MATTERS.

God has commanded that we love Him with our entire heart, soul, strength and MIND. These discussions aid us in loving God with our MIND, with understanding the TRUTH which He has revealed, with helping us apprehend His Revelation.

“Agreeing to disagree” is watering down this Truth and we are all the worse for it, IMHO.

 

[jmcrae]

The CC started long before the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints did, as you suggest. But that means nothing. There are many Protestant denominations that started in revival fire but a couple centuries later have lost their first love, lost their fire, and have backslidden to some extent.

I thought we had already narrowed down our choices to the Mormon Church and the Catholic Church, since these are the only two in existence that even claim to be Apostolic (which is the third mark of the True Church) - those that don’t claim to be Apostolic are out of the running already, since they lack the third mark, so what they did or didn’t lose or gain is entirely irrelevant.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Ah, very good, then. You are not talking about “essential doctrines” that all Christians must agree on?

You are talking about what we must do to be saved?

Here’s what the Catholic Church proclaims you must do/believe in order to receive salvation:

We are saved:

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By his Cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)

Are you agreed on this, Cal?

Almost! Yea! Let’s celebrate! . . .
I can take a sigh of relief now. (Sometimes I need a break from the combat.)

We can see from your list that Protestants and Catholics agree far more often than they disagree.

The only two that remain problematic are “by baptism” and, of course, “by eating his flesh and drinking his blood,” the latter being a case a differing interpretations.

(We point to the thief on the cross as evidence that baptism is not what saves us—he never had a chance to be baptized—but is an outward sign of an inward work. That’s another topic.)

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

I had said, “When Pope John Paul II was in Cameroon one time, he asked twenty-six leaders of several denominations, ‘Indeed, is it not the duty of every follower of Christ to work for the unity of all Christians?’”

Wisdomseeker responded, “Why then do you reject the calling of the Church found by Christ and submit yourselves to One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church? just like we Catholics do?”

I guess we’re interpreting the Pope differently. I had taken the Pope’s statement as an indication that he recognized the leaders of the non-Catholic denominations as Christians. If he didn’t think they were Christians, he would have suggested that they convert, not unify with Catholics. Right? Darkness and light can’t unify.

I’m confused. :whacky: I need a second & third opinion on this. PR? jm?

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

We never say as Catholics who is going to hell. That’s not permitted by my Church. Surely you were aware of that, right?

Not really. Is that because of the doctrine of pergatory?

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

One reason I am thankful today:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ZUH0N4lww...w/JfLBp9-NTK0/s1600/soldiers+thanksgiving.bmp

Yes, our troops!

 

[PRmerger]

Almost! Yea! Let’s celebrate! . . .
I can take a sigh of relief now. (Sometimes I need a break from the combat.)

We can see from your list that Protestants and Catholics agree far more often than they disagree.

Indeed. And I might add that you probably are more in agreement with me than some average-joe-lump-in-the-pews Catholics that are attending Mass at every Catholic parish. Most Catholics, sadly, have been poorly catechized and cannot articulate anything about what they believe and why. :sad_yes:

The only two that remain problematic are “by baptism” and, of course, “by eating his flesh and drinking his blood,” the latter being a case a differing interpretations.

(We point to the thief on the cross as evidence that baptism is not what saves us—he never had a chance to be baptized—but is an outward sign of an inward work. That’s another topic.)

Do you have a verse that says that this thief was never baptized, Cal? I don’t think there is one, so I wonder how you know that he wasn’t.

 

[PRmerger]

I had said, “When Pope John Paul II was in Cameroon one time, he asked twenty-six leaders of several denominations, ‘Indeed, is it not the duty of every follower of Christ to work for the unity of all Christians?’”

Wisdomseeker responded, “Why then do you reject the calling of the Church found by Christ and submit yourselves to One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church? just like we Catholics do?”

I guess we’re interpreting the Pope differently. I had taken the Pope’s statement as an indication that he recognized the leaders of the non-Catholic denominations as Christians. If he didn’t think they were Christians, he would have suggested that they convert, not unify with Catholics. Right? Darkness and light can’t unify.

I’m confused. :whacky: I need a second & third opinion on this. PR? jm?

The Catholic Church calls anyone who has been baptized in water using the Trinitarian formula Christians. They are our brothers and sisters in Christ.

“The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."CCC 838

 

[PRmerger]

Not really. Is that because of the doctrine of pergatory?

No, it is because we cannot judge a person’s heart. Only God can see that.

Not sure what purgatory has to do with your misconception that Catholics can say who’s going to hell.

Do you understand what the Church teaches about purgatory?

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Indeed. And I might add that you probably are more in agreement with me than some average-joe-lump-in-the-pews Catholics that are attending Mass at every Catholic parish.

Good point.

Do you have a verse that says that this thief was never baptized, Cal? I don’t think there is one, so I wonder how you know that he wasn’t.

Maybe there’s a possibility that he was. I’d have to reexamine the story. I have the impression that he converted while on the cross. Assuming that’s the case, can you figure out how he could have been baptized?

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

The Catholic Church calls anyone who has been baptized in water using the Trinitarian formula Christians. They are our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Uh, oh. We have another big problem.
You actually believe that if someone is baptized but does not repent and make Jesus their Lord, that they are saved?

 

[PRmerger]

Uh, oh. We have another big problem.
You actually believe that if someone is baptized but does not repent and make Jesus their Lord, that they are saved?

Just as I don’t know who is condemned, I also cannot say who is saved, Cal.

We are saved when we die.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

No, it is because we cannot judge a person’s heart. Only God can see that.

That’s good, but if you say such and such is essential, and someone says “I have not done that,” aren’t you saying that person is going to hell unless they do such and such?

Do you understand what the Church teaches about purgatory?

I’m ignorant. :doh2:

 

[Linda_Marie]

The next comment for me to reply to will be #131, PRmergers!
Is it at 200 that they cut off the discussion?

I’m going to suggest we talk about what we agree on at some point. I think that would please God. Often, when people discuss their disagreements they get to where they imagine they’re further apart than they really are.
Or, they may actually grow further apart. In a tug of war, we can pull so hard that we both end up in a ditch. I believe this has happened to some extent throughout church history.

Love to all.

We all have the same goal - to spend eternity with God in heaven. Discussing this with you has been a pleasure. It has not been an adversarial confrontation but a genuine desire to understand.

I am a convert as you can see from my signature line. I had no religion prior to God taking me by the scruff of the neck and giving me a good shake. Others have described it as like being whacked upside the head with a spiritual 2x4.

For me, when God lit in me a burning desire to be Baptised, the question for me was ‘which church?’. My mother is a lapsed Baptist and my father was an ex-Catholic. I never heard anything good about the Catholic Church growing up. Moreover, I grew up in Saudi Arabia under Wahabi Islam. It wasn’t a question of choosing the right Christian Church, but choosing the right religion, the True Path to God. That burning desire for baptism led me to Christianity.

Unfortunately, forum rules do not permit me to discuss any private revelations but suffice it to say, I believe that God led me to the Catholic Church. The Holy Spirit convicted me that the Catholic Church is the One; founded by Christ and Protected by the Holy Spirit from ever Teaching error, before I even knew what the Church taught.

It was not a matter of finding a church which taught what I believed was true, but finding the Church which Teaches the Truth. I had more than a few ‘adjustments’ to make in my beliefs and behaviour.

I thank God continually for leading me to His True Church. I urge you to continue your searching, but allow the Holy Spirit to guide you. I am sure He will lead you home.

I pray that the Holy Spirit, who has led you to this forum to discover the Catholic Faith, will open your heart to where He is leading you.

In Christ
Linda Marie

 

[PRmerger]

Maybe there’s a possibility that he was. I’d have to reexamine the story. I have the impression that he converted while on the cross. Assuming that’s the case, can you figure out how he could have been baptized?

Many possibilities:
-he actually was baptized and included in the term “households”
-his desire for baptism was sufficient
-his suffering on the cross was a baptism of desire
-we are bound by baptism, but Jesus is not and can draw anyone to him by any means he wishes

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Just as I don’t know who is condemned, I also cannot say who is saved, Cal.

We are saved when we die.

I’m talking about what I call the first stage of salvation, when we enter the kingdom of God on this earth, when we are born-again, when we are first justified or forgiven, when we become a child of God, when we are first covered by the blood of Jesus, when we start our journey of following the Lord.