SPLIT: The Eucharist in Scripture and Catholic teaching.

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We simply must interpret [the Bible . . . the way that God revealed it. Thus, if someone reads the Scriptures and comes to the conclusion that Jesus was NOT DIVINE, then he is not free to go with this interpretation. You agree with this prohibition too, right?
Yes.
. . . Let’s say a Pope is planning a Vatican dinner and is worried that there’s not going to be enough food. He takes ten minutes to meditate on Scriptures and comes face to face with the story of the Multiplication of the Loaves. He is heartened and believes that God is telling him “stop worrying, Benedict! There will be plenty of food!” He sends a text to his chef not to worry!

His later predecessor reads this text and says, “Benedict was wrong about that. I heard that the chief steward did not get dessert!”

Well, they can certainly disagree about that particular interpretation of the Multiplication of the Loaves! 🙂
Cute.
[/quote]
 
Hi Cal, good to see you back. I’ve been including you in my nightly prayers that you might understand this Mystery. Of course, it is a Mystery, capital M.
I thought so!! I’ve been waiting for someone to say that!
Our human understanding will never fully understand how this happens. For me, it is Jesus’s words. God said “Let there be light.” and there was light. God said, “This is my body.” so it is His Body, even though those eating the Last Supper with Jesus only saw and tasted bread and wine.

The terms, substance and accidents, are used to try to explain what happens but they remain an imperfect explanation.

You can only accept this by faith. That is what Jesus meant in John 6. He was reiterating that what He had said was the truth, you must eat His Body and drink His Blood if you want eternal life.

You accept that Jesus rose from the dead by faith. Do you understand how He rose? By what mechanism his dead, tortured, exsanguinated body came back to life? Do you need to understand it to accept it, to believe it?
This is a very good point. You’re right, I don’t need to understand everything I believe in.

I think we’ve reached a consummation in our conversation about understanding Catholic transubstantiation. I can’t say, “It’s not true because it doesn’t make sense.”

The question now is: Does belief in transubstantiation necessitate that those who believe in it regard all non-Catholics as outside the grace of God, that is, without a union with God in which he lives in us and we live in him. I’m thinking of 1 John 4:15:

When anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwells in him and he in God.

Thanks for your prayers. I pray for members of this forum from time to time as well. God causes such wonderful phenomenon to happen in his community. I sure feel sorry for those of the world who have no such community, no real hope; only emptiness.
 
It seems clear that Jesus had intended to establish a Kingdom on earth in continuity with the Kingdom of David, and that He appointed His Apostles to be its first leaders.
I agree with that.
 
Thanks for reading the link, CF.

…how can you be sure you are not deceiving yourself? Are so sure of yourself, that you are denying yourself the fullness of the Christian faith…of the receiving the fullness of Christ?
I know for sure that I am not experiencing the fullness of Christ. If I were, I would be perfect. I would always love all my neighbors as I love myself.
 
Quote of Cal Fullerton: here’s a statement that expresses my view (I’m stealing it from a booklet I’m reading):
A believer who is living a pure life and keeping in touch with God through prayer and regular study of the Bible possesses an anointing from the Holy Spirit that will keep him [or her] from being deceived.
QUOTE of PRMerger:
Cal! I am sooo proud of you! Getting all fancy-schmancy with your posts now, using the indent and everything.

Thanks. 😃 I appreciate the deluxe-ness of this forum’s application.

PRMerger: Now, for the serious part: let’s take your statement and see how that applies to a man, such as Fred Phelps, who claims to be a Christian but makes statements such as this.

lgbtqnation.com/wp-conten…/03/phelps.jpg
(warning: content is lewd and offensive, but is ostensibly offered by a Christian. I also offer a disclaimer from the website that offers this photo of Mr. Phelps–it is a pro-homosexual site, but the fact remains that Mr. Phelps does indeed proclaim what is displayed in the sign.)

So how does a person apply your statement and include you but exclude Fred Phelps in this paradigm?

My computer denied me access to your link. (Something I’m not all that sorry about in light of your description of it!)

I’ll guess that the gay person said that God created him to be gay.

I’d say that the gay person did not ask God with full sincerity how he felt about homosexuality.
 
HI Cal,

Don’t worry not sewing!.

I don’t think anyone can** fully **experience the fullness of Christ as human beings, its a journey, not a destination. If anyone could of , it should of been Mother Teresa, who gave her life to the care of others, and she felt emptiness and darkness of the soul , even doubted at times the existance of God.

Your right, if you were perfect you wouldn’t be human.🙂
 
So do we [believe in being intimate with God]- this is why Adoration is so important. We should make a Holy Hour at least once a week, if possible. But we shouldn’t try to make ourselves “special” by noising abroad the intimate things that Jesus tells us in Adoration. They are private.
I think it would be judgmental to assume that someone who noises abroad the intimate things Jesus says to them is necessarily trying to make themselves special.

I’m so thankful to have a copy of a book by Gabrielle Bossis (1874-1950), who clearly was Catholic. It is a diary of messages she heard the Lord speak to her. I’ll give you an example so you’ll know why I value the book so highly. The following is the very first thing I looked at when opening the book seconds ago:

June 12 [1938]
When you see something reprehensible in priests, instead of criticizing them, stop and ask yourself, ‘Have I prayed for them?’
Get out of yourself. Surrender the helm of your life to Me. Let your soul be lost in Mine. Why do you want to do everything? Give Me your trust and then just let yourself drift along wherever I take you.

Isn’t that powerful? I have no doubt that’s God. I don’t have to ask my pastor; I just know. And I bet you do, too, because you have the Holy Spirit in you and you have knowledge of the Scriptures and you know something of his love.
 
Great.

You went on to quote someone who said participation in Eucharist helps us get close to God. I’m all for that! That’s great!

“If the bottom line is fine, what are you so upset about?” someone might say to me.
I’d reply, “It’s the condemnation of those who participate in a non-Catholic Eucharist, that I disturbs me—for their sake, not for mine. Jesus will protect me and reward me for any verbal abuse thrown at me, IF I don’t retaliate! But I’m concerned about you folks. Paul indicated that we all need each other (1 Cor. 12:21).”

Have a great evening, sister. (Are you a nun, by any chance?)
I certainly hope you have never heard any condemnation from me of those who participate in a non-Catholic communion service. I know, being a written forum, that sometimes we can be misunderstood. The people who participate are doing their best to get close to God in Christ. I only wish they could see the fullness available in the Eucharist.

There are times when Catholics may not receive the Eucharist. At such times, we have a prayer:
*My Jesus, I believe that You are present in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar.

I love You above all things, and I desire to receive You into my soul.

Since I cannot at this moment receive You sacramentally, come at least spiritually into my heart. I embrace You as if You were already there and unite myself wholly to You. Never permit me to be separated from You. Amen.*
So, we do understand spiritual communion. It is the next best thing to receiving Our Lord in the Eucharist.

And that is just it - a spiritual communion is great, but there is no comparison to the Eucharist. I want others to know God in this very very special way.

As a charismatic, I sometimes experience (mind’s eye) visions and interior locutions. At Communion, I used to ALWAYS have a vision of Jesus. He would come to me and we would talk, all very personal stuff. There was a closeness that didn’t exist at other times, only at Communion, after I had received His Body and Blood. (how I lost my Communion visions is another story and one we cannot discuss since it involves the content)

The Holy Spirit convicted me and made me Catholic, before I knew anything about what the Church teaches. God had been calling me for several years before I finally responded. He had been tapping me on the shoulder and I kept saying, “yeah, thanks for … but I’m ok now. Later.” He had to smack me upside the head with a spiritual 2x4 to get my attention. Then I was filled, burning, with the desire to be baptised. Well, someone has to do the baptising so the question became, ‘Which church?’

Which Church did Jesus found? I grew up in the Middle East, near the Holy Land. I was deep into the history of the region. I knew that until the Schism in around 1000AD, there was only one Church, the Church that Jesus founded on Peter. Even though there might be some things I didn’t like about that Church (I had a lot of erroneous notions I had to shed), it was still the only one founded by Jesus. It still is.

Although I knew the history, I was not up on theology at all. I didn’t know one church from another by their teachings. When it came time for me to choose, my decision was not based on their teachings, because I didn’t even know them to know who was correct. It was not a matter of choosing a church which agreed with me, but rather,“Which Church Teaches the Truth?”, which Church has the promise of the Holy Spirit to protect Her from ever Teaching error? And, yes, I know from history that there have been some very dodgy Popes, but none of them ever changed what is taught. They had succumbed to the World and sinned in their personal lives, but the promise was not to protect popes from sinning, but to protect the Church from Teaching error.

If anyone ever convinces me that the Church is not protected by the Holy Spirit, it would mean that the Bible itself is no different from the holy books of other faiths, just pious fiction, and containing no Truth; that God, the Father, does not exist, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, are no different from Jupiter or Juno and they are all made up to satisfy the need in man for something beyond ourselves.

What other Christian churches have of the Truth has come from the Catholic Church. The Bible is ‘Our Book’. That you even know about Jesus is down to the evangelisation efforts of Catholics throughout history.

We want you to know Jesus even better than you do now. We are not content to let you stay outside on the doorstep not knowing all the Truth. We want you to come home.

(No, I am not a nun. I am a wife and mother of 2 grown sons, waiting on grandchildren. My religious vocation is Marriage, rather than Holy Orders.)
 
Can you believe it, jm? I’m all caught up! What a marathon! I saw your comments on marriage and the heading said you wrote it TODAY!
Hi. How are you? We’re live! :extrahappy:
Get out the ribbon, the cake, the whistles, the 🍿 !

I like what you said on marriage, by the way. 🙂

Take care.
 
Can it be a “sincere mistake” to leave the Church that Christ established to start up a Church of one’s own, and name it after oneself? (Hypothetically speaking - I don’t mean that you have ever done this.)

I am also wondering whether it would be an “honest mistake” if one knew that Jesus established a Church, but went ahead and followed the man-made one instead, anyway, if it seemed to be “more biblical.”
You’re using a different definition for church than I am.

Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words says

The Greek term most often associated with the word church—the word used by Jesus in Matthew 18:17—has two definitions.
One definition is "the whole company of the redeemed, described as “the Church which is His Body” in Ephesians 1:22-23.
The second definition is “a company consisting of professed believers.”
 
Love to all.
I’ll be back next week, or maybe the week after that.
Our God rocks!
 
Sounds like a good analogy. But if so, would I not taste blood and flesh when I partake of the bread and wine, just as I would taste minerals if I licked the fossils?
No, because it’s not a physical exchange of material - it’s a spiritual exchange of substance (“what-ness”).

By “substance” or “what-ness” what I mean is, at the moment of the Consecration, the answer to the question “What is it?” changes from “It’s bread and wine,” to “It’s Jesus.” Even though no physical change occurs.
 
You’re using a different definition for church than I am.
Evidently. 🙂

What we need to discern, then, is what Jesus meant by the term.

I think it’s clear in the Book of Acts that the Apostles understood Him to mean a visible community consisting of themselves as the leaders, the company of those who were following Him during His lifetime and continued to keep company with the Apostles after the Resurrection, as well as those who were converted and baptized and made members of the their community afterwards. Even St. Paul, who might have had good reason to separate himself and create his own community of Jesus-followers, kept company with the Apostles, and remained in full communion with them. It’s also very clear that the communities he established in the various cities were also in full communion both with himself and with the Apostles - they were never left to try and figure things out on their own.
 
HI Cal,

Don’t worry not sewing!.

I don’t think anyone can** fully **experience the fullness of Christ as human beings, its a journey, not a destination. If anyone could of, it should of been Mother Teresa, who gave her life to the care of others, and she felt emptiness and darkness of the soul, even doubted at times the existence of God.

Your right, if you were perfect you wouldn’t be human.🙂
So true, luvtosew! No one experiences the fullness of Christ in this life. Maybe not in the next one, either.

Yes, Mother Teresa was human like the rest of us. Speaking of Mother Teresa, I was so impressed by a movie about her life, which I saw on TV years ago, that I bought a copy.
I used to have the impression that Mother Teresa was just a do-gooder who didn’t know the Lord as her personal Savior. The movie blew that fallacy all to smitherines!
 
There are times when Catholics may not receive the Eucharist. At such times, we have a prayer:
  • . . . .
    Since I cannot at this moment receive You sacramentally, come at least spiritually into my heart. I embrace You as if You were already there and unite myself wholly to You. Never permit me to be separated from You. Amen.*
So, we do understand spiritual communion. It is the next best thing to receiving Our Lord in the Eucharist. . . .

As a charismatic, I sometimes experience (mind’s eye) visions and interior locutions. At Communion, I used to ALWAYS have a vision of Jesus. He would come to me and we would talk, all very personal stuff. There was a closeness that didn’t exist at other times, only at Communion, after I had received His Body and Blood. (how I lost my Communion visions is another story and one we cannot discuss since it involves the content)

The Holy Spirit convicted me and made me Catholic, before I knew anything about what the Church teaches. . . .

Which Church did Jesus found? I grew up in the Middle East, near the Holy Land. I was deep into the history of the region. I knew that until the Schism in around 1000AD, there was only one Church, the Church that Jesus founded on Peter. Even though there might be some things I didn’t like about that Church (I had a lot of erroneous notions I had to shed), it was still the only one founded by Jesus. . . .

If anyone ever convinces me that the Church is not protected by the Holy Spirit, it would mean that the Bible itself is no different from the holy books of other faiths, just pious fiction, and containing no Truth; that God, the Father, does not exist, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, are no different from Jupiter or Juno and they are all made up to satisfy the need in man for something beyond ourselves.

What other Christian churches have of the Truth has come from the Catholic Church. The Bible is ‘Our Book’. That you even know about Jesus is down to the evangelisation efforts of Catholics throughout history.

We want you to know Jesus even better than you do now. We are not content to let you stay outside on the doorstep not knowing all the Truth. We want you to come home.

(No, I am not a nun. I am a wife and mother of 2 grown sons, waiting on grandchildren. My religious vocation is Marriage, rather than Holy Orders.)
Well, tell your sons to get cooking!

I appreciate you telling your story. Did you, or do you, ever attend Protestant churches? Were you a Muslim at one time?
Helen and I may go to Israel this fall. Do you think it’ll be worth the trip?

You said, “If anyone ever convinces me that the Church is not protected by the Holy Spirit, it would mean that the Bible itself is no different from the holy books of other faiths, just pious fiction, and containing no Truth.”

Wow. So your belief that God protects the church is very deeply entrenched.

I agree with you except that your definition of church is a little different than mine. When I think church, I think of every person around the world who has Jesus living in their heart—a Temple for the Divine, if you will. Some of these people may be Methodists, Baptists, Pentecostals, Seventh-Day Adventists, an Episcopalians, etc.

Second Corinthians 6:16
We are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”

It appears that when you think church, you think of an institution or a structure of leadership. jmcrae compared it to the presidential office of the U.S. government. And within that structure there may be those who do not actually know the Lord Jesus personally. Is that right?

The visions of Jesus and the special communion you had with Jesus (& the Father) during Communion impact me. I have learned from this forum that Catholic Communion can be, and often is, a very special and spiritual experience. I didn’t know that before entering this forum. I understand Catholics a wee bit better than I did.

Our son-in-law is Catholic but almost never talks about his faith. Not only that, but he also gets uncomfortable if people start talking about their day by day relationship with the Lord or about the powerful biblical truths we hold so dear. This gives me the impression that he doesn’t know the Lord at all and consequently is headed toward the bad place (hell). I’m concerned about him.

On the other hand, two charismatic Catholics live about a half a mile down the street from us. They always talk about spiritual things when we see them. They are a bit on fire, you might say.

Blessings to you. 🙂

P.S. I look forward to reading jm’s comments when I return.
 
I appreciate you telling your story. Did you, or do you, ever attend Protestant churches? Were you a Muslim at one time?
Helen and I may go to Israel this fall. Do you think it’ll be worth the trip?
Yes, I have attended Protestant churches a few times but it wasn’t something my parents were ‘into’. Both of them felt that all organised religions were corrupt and we do better practicing our faith without being a part of corrupt institutions. At nine, I vaguely remember being bored to tears at a Lutheran service. I didn’t get anything out of it. I went once to another denomination with a friend when I had had a sleepover at her place. They had a communion service with plates of broken up bread passed around and grape juice distributed in little paper pill cups. It didn’t make any impression on me.

Not to worry. God had been tapping me on the shoulder for a few years before I actually answered Him. It took a lot to get my attention. Not even surviving going over a 45 foot cliff in a car at 50mph - with NO injuries - was enough to make me turn to Him.

Back in November, I went to a Lutheran service with my SIL. It felt to me more like a prayer meeting with one person (the pastor) giving us something to think/pray about. My SIL was disappointed that they didn’t have a communion service that day.

Although I grew up in KSA, I was never a Muslim. I would never become a Muslim although their faith example for me was very strong. I admire the strength of their convictions, but not their beliefs because they have been beguiled away from Jesus.

I think you might find everything much different than you imagine in Israel but that you would get a lot out of it anyway.
I agree with you except that your definition of church is a little different than mine. When I think church, I think of every person around the world who has Jesus living in their heart—a Temple for the Divine, if you will. Some of these people may be Methodists, Baptists, Pentecostals, Seventh-Day Adventists, an Episcopalians, etc.

It appears that when you think church, you think of an institution or a structure of leadership. jmcrae compared it to the presidential office of the U.S. government. And within that structure there may be those who do not actually know the Lord Jesus personally. Is that right?
Actually, we are closer than you think. It is both, the institution founded by Jesus and the people He has gathered to Himself. That you have been baptised ‘In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit’ means that you are part of the Church, whether you think of yourself as Catholic or not.

from the Catechism
*
816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."267
Code:
The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."268
Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:
Code:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271
**818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276***

Sadly, there are too many who have been raised in faith, whether Catholic or a denomination, but who reject it, or even just don’t care. 😦

We must keep them in our prayers.
 
What we need to discern, then, is what Jesus meant by the term [church].

I think it’s clear in the Book of Acts that the Apostles understood Him to mean a visible community consisting of themselves as the leaders, the company of those who were following Him during His lifetime and continued to keep company with the Apostles after the Resurrection, as well as those who were converted and baptized and made members of the their community afterwards. Even St. Paul, who might have had good reason to separate himself and create his own community of Jesus-followers, kept company with the Apostles, and remained in full communion with them. It’s also very clear that the communities he established in the various cities were also in full communion both with himself and with the Apostles - they were never left to try and figure things out on their own.
I think that’s very good, jm. The church was unified then in a way that it (or she) has not been since. I believe the Father and Jesus and the Spirit are grieving over the disunity in his body. That’s one reason I’m trying to learn more about Catholicism and make friends with you guys (and gals).

Do you believe the Eastern church, which, as I understand, split with the Western church back around A.D. 300 or 400, was no longer part of the true church of Christ after they wandered? (I may need correcting on my dates!)

If so, what false doctrines were so harmful at the time of the split as to necessitate the disfellowship?

Answer carefully, jm, or I might trap you. 😉

P.S. The ice on the lake by our house has almost already melted due to unseasonably warm temps here in New England.
 
I think that’s very good, jm. The church was unified then in a way that it (or she) has not been since. I believe the Father and Jesus and the Spirit are grieving over the disunity in his body. That’s one reason I’m trying to learn more about Catholicism and make friends with you guys (and gals).

Do you believe the Eastern church, which, as I understand, split with the Western church back around A.D. 300 or 400, was no longer part of the true church of Christ after they wandered? (I may need correcting on my dates!)
First, there is no “Eastern Church” as such - there are many Eastern Patriarchs, but they aren’t unified, and never have been. The split happened after some horrendously stupid battle that took place in Constantinople during the Crusades - my impression is that Western Christians mistook Eastern Christians for Arab Muslims, and killed them all - and for whatever reason, whether deserved or not, the Bishop of Rome was blamed for the mix-up. 🤷
If so, what false doctrines were so harmful at the time of the split as to necessitate the disfellowship?
The split actually had nothing to do with doctrine; it was a question of Church governance. The Eastern Patriarchs did not wish to be under the authority of the Bishop of Rome, because of this really stupid that happened in Constantinople, that I still don’t fully understand - but anyway, the Patriarch of Constantinople was understandably offended, blamed the Bishop of Rome, and then some of the other Eastern Patriarchs also decided to strike out on their own. Not all of them did that, as you know - 26 of them still remain under the authority of Rome even today.

They retain authentic Sacraments because they never lost their Apostolic succession, and never tried to change the wording of the Sacraments. 🙂

We are also experience very spring-like weather here in Calgary - I’m hoping for an earlier and longer summer.
 
jm, how does the Eucharist help you to be close to our Lord?
How would physical union with one’s Beloved not bring one closer? :love: :love:

I think it’s just incredible that Jesus gives Himself to us to eat and drink at Mass - it amazes me every single time. 🙂
 
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