SPLIT: The Eucharist in Scripture and Catholic teaching.

[jmcrae]

He certainly is food for our salvation.

You may have struck a nerve with your word “prototype” and your example of a chair.
I’ve heard stories (on the popular Christian program “It’s Supernatural”) of people who have gone to heaven and saw a room of body parts. These parts are for people who have a malfunctioning liver or a dysfunctional pancreas, etc. Some prophetic people—sometimes called “seers”—have seen an angel put one of these parts into a person after which the person was healed. Some of the parts remain unclaimed because the person who needs them does not have the faith to receive them.

I haven’t heard of this before, but it does make sense that something like this could happen. Probably not very often, but it is certainly one reasonable explanation for how medical miracles take place.

Is that similar to what you are talking about? Are you saying that an invisible but very real prototype or pattern or copy of Jesus’ body is attached to the bread?

Well - not a copy, as such. It is actually Jesus - since Jesus is the prototype of the human race - He is the model from which Adam and Eve were created. (In the image of God created He them, male and female … and then all of the passages in the New Testament that point out that Jesus is the “second Adam.” Just incidentally, the Early Church realized that it is Mary who is the “second Eve” since she is made of the same flesh as Jesus, just as Eve was made of the same flesh as Adam.)

And, not “attached to the bread,” but actually displacing the substance of the bread and occupying its accidents (material form).

I hope that makes sense, and I hope my fellow Catholics will correct me if I’ve overstated anything.

 

[jmcrae]

I would say people walked away because to their natural minds Jesus seemed to be referring to cannibalism.

Notice that Jesus never corrected this apparent misunderstanding. He did not (as He so often did with His parables and other difficult figures of speech) turn then to the Disciples and explain the meaning of the symbols He was using, or tell another figure of speech that gives the same message to reiterate the symbolism. Rather, He said to them, “Will you also go away?” Showing that the plain meaning of the words is in fact what He was talking about, without any difficult symbolism being present at all.

 

[jmcrae]

I’m greatly relieved by your last sentence.
I’m puzzled by your first sentence. What if someone becomes a follower of Christ but does not participate in Catholic Communion? Is he or she saved? What does “saved” mean in Catholic language?

To be “saved” is to have already died, and to be in Heaven with Jesus.

Here on the earth, we can only be on a journey either toward or away from salvation. Our every decision, large or small, takes us either closer to salvation, or farther away from it. We can be in a state of grace, meaning that if we were to die at that moment, we would go straight to Heaven, and we can always know when we are in a state of grace, and when we are not. But all of our choices matter - not just one. Our entire life needs to be oriented towards Jesus - what we do with our time, what we do with our money, what we do for our families, what we do for our customers, what we do for our employers, what we do when we are relaxing, and so on.

Okay, I understand that. Communion is a renewal of the covenant we entered into when we decided to make Jesus our personal Lord. I got that! :clapping: I like it.

Brilliant.

Remember that the Jews renew their Covenant with God by eating the flesh of a perfect lamb. It is an actual meal, with prayers - it is a Paschal (Passover) liturgy

Now, consider this: if eating the flesh of the Sacrifice is necessary for the renewing of the Old Covenant, how is it that it would not be necessary under the New Covenant? Or to put it another way, if the New Covenant is greater than the Old Covenant, then how could the renewing of the New Covenant be less real (“only a symbol”) than the renewal of the Old Covenant (real meat, with real eating)?

Shouldn’t it be the other way around? Shouldn’t the Old Covenant prefigure the New Covenant, rather than the other way around? Should there not also be a Paschal Liturgy for Christians, in which we eat the Sacrifice that was given for our sins, as well?

 

[PRmerger]

What if someone becomes a follower of Christ but does not participate in Catholic Communion? Is he or she saved?

I answer with what Jesus answered: strive to enter.

I don’t know whether any person is saved or not. That’s above my pay grade.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m still working on what the Catholic understanding of the Eucharist is. I’m getting closer, thanks to you and the others here.

Fair enough.

What would it have taken for Jesus to say in order for you to believe that you must eat his flesh and drink his blood?

That is, what words would you have had to read in the Scriptures that would have convinced you that he wants us to eat his flesh and drink his blood?

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Jesus is the prototype of the human race - He is the model from which Adam and Eve were created. (In the image of God created He them, male and female … and then all of the passages in the New Testament that point out that Jesus is the “second Adam.”

That’s very good. I agree with all that.

Well - not a copy, as such. It is actually Jesus. . . . And, not “attached to the bread,” but actually displacing the substance of the bread and occupying its accidents (material form).

This is what I don’t think I’ll ever understand despite your patient attempts to help me.

To me, there are two aspects—for lack of a better term—to Jesus. There is Jesus the person with a resurrected, glorified body. (He is next in command to God the Father, and someone has said he is often present in the sanctuary although you can’t see him. I think you all have also told me that his resurrected body is NOT what comes into the bread.)

Then there is Jesus’ essence or substance which is contained in the Holy Spirit. This is why we can call the Holy Spirit “God.” This essence is what makes Jesus equal to the Father, and it is what we refer to when we say Jesus is in us—those who follow him. This essence, as the Bible tells us, is love, truth, light, eternal life, righteousness, etc. When I read the Bible or pray I feel His peace increase in my heart, I feel my faith strengthen, my power and desire to overcome temptation increases. This is Jesus’ essence or substance in me. Something I can feel. (It’s also the Father’s essence and the Holy Spirit’s essence in me, which is why we can say the Father is in us, and why Jesus could say the Father was in him—“If you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father.”)

So in my mind, if Jesus comes into the bread, it has to be either his resurrected, glorified body; or it is his Spirit. Since the Holy Spirit contains all of his essence, there is no way he could come into the bread without his Spirit coming in too. And yet someone told me his Spirit does not come into the bread.

Do you see why I’m thrown for a loop?

I’ll have to get to the other comments some time later.

Have a good day, jm.
Lord, I pray, guide our discussion.

 

[Linda_Marie]

As I restudied John 6 this evening, I was reminded that Jesus isn’t talking about the Eucharist (the ceremony called communion or the Lord’s Supper) here. That’s the first thing I needed to reestablish in my mind, if not yours also.

Who first taught you that Jesus wasn’t talking about the Eucharist in John 6? What is their authority to teach? How do you know that their interpretation is True?

No, to me, it is impossible NOT to see that He is talking about the Eucharist. When I first came to the Church, this chapter in particular enlightened my heart. (If you look at my signature, you will see that I am a convert.)

Actually, as I was thinking about this topic today, it occurred to me that I might be more accurate if I say Jesus was on a spiritual plain when he said, “Eat my flesh.” It might be better for me to say it that way than to say he was speaking symbolically. Really, I believe we are taking in (literally spiritually eating) the Life of God constantly as born again believers in Christ. Do you agree?

no

It was quite evident that He was not ‘on a spiritual plane’ when He said, “Eat My flesh.” He did not correct the crowds’ understanding that He was speaking about literally eating His Body and drinking His Blood. They walked away in disgust. Their souls were at stake and He did not call them back to change what He said, nor did He change anything He said to the disciples.

We receive Him Sacramentally, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist. This is different to receiving Him spiritually during prayer or other times when we are not participating at Mass.

Are you saying that the Catholic Church believes that we share in the Divine Life of Jesus by drinking the blood (accident wine) during communion?

Yes, or when receiving the Body. Each Species of the Eucharist is God, whole and entire. In receiving the Body, we also receive the Blood and vice versa. God is One.

During the consecration, the priest prays a sub-audible prayer when he is preparing the wine. He adds a few drops of water to the wine (the blood and water which flowed from His side) saying, “By the Mystery of this water and wine, may we come to share in the Divinity of Christ, Who humbled Himself to share in our humanity.”

In other words, are you saying that one can receive salvation simply by participating in communion INSTEAD of by repenting and becoming of follower of Christ? (I don’t think that’s what you mean.)

No. Salvation is not a one-off. It is a journey. We have been saved, we are being saved, we will be saved. There is an initial awakening and repentance (at least there was for me) but that is not the end of the story. Baptism is like a wedding, but our relationship with Jesus is like a marriage. Just as with a wedding, baptism is only the beginning of the relationship. We strive to bring ourselves closer to Jesus all our lives. There is continual repentance of all those things that separate us from the Love of God.

Or are you saying that an extra dose or wave of the Holy Spirit (Divine Life) comes into a participator in communion when they drink the blood (wine)? To me, the Divine Life (Holy Spirit, perfect righteousness, truth, love, light) is the substance of God—what he really is.

---

Interdenominational communication can be difficult but I believe our Lord wants us to work at it.
Again, I appreciate the grace that I sense on you.

We cannot divide God into ‘extra doses’. God is One and we join ourselves with Him (and with everyone else in the world receiving Communion that day) during Communion with His Real, Very, Actual, Body and Blood.

We cannot get closer to Him than we do in Holy Communion when we join our flesh and blood with His, at least in this world. The more we receive Him in the Eucharist, the easier it is to mold ourselves to His Will. Frequent communion is encouraged by the Church, daily if possible.

maybe the lyrics of this Communion hymn will help.
May God bless you.

1. Godhead here in hiding, whom I do adore,
   Masked by these bare shadows, shape and nothing more,
   See, Lord, at thy service low lies here a heart
   Lost, all lost in wonder at the God thou art.

1. Seeing, touching, tasting are in thee deceived:
   How says trusty hearing? that shall be believed;
   What God’s Son has told me, take for truth I do;
   Truth himself speaks truly or there’s nothing true.

1. On the cross thy godhead made no sign to men,
   Here thy very manhood steals from human ken:
   Both are my confession, both are my belief,
   And I pray the prayer of the dying thief.

1. I am not like Thomas, wounds I cannot see,
   But can plainly call thee Lord and God as he;
   Let me to a deeper faith daily nearer move,
   Daily make me harder hope and dearer love.

1. O thou our reminder of Christ crucified,
   Living Bread, the life of us for whom he died,
   Lend this life to me then: feed and feast my mind,
   There be thou the sweetness man was meant to find.

1. Bring the tender tale true of the Pelican;
   Bathe me, Jesu Lord, in what thy bosom ran—
   Blood whereof a single drop has power to win
   All the world forgiveness of its world of sin.

1. Jesu, whom I look at shrouded here below,
   I beseech thee send me what I thirst for so,
   Some day to gaze on thee face to face in light
   And be blest for ever with thy glory’s sight.
   Amen.

 

[jmcrae]

And yet someone told me his Spirit does not come into the bread.

“Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity.” Yes, His spirit certainly does displace the bread - just not all by itself. It is the entire Jesus; not only a part of Him.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Salvation is not a one-off. It is a journey. We have been saved, we are being saved, we will be saved. There is an initial awakening and repentance (at least there was for me) but that is not the end of the story. Baptism is like a wedding, but our relationship with Jesus is like a marriage. Just as with a wedding, baptism is only the beginning of the relationship. We strive to bring ourselves closer to Jesus all our lives. There is continual repentance of all those things that separate us from the Love of God.

I agree with all that and am experiencing it as well. Isn’t it great! Nothing in the world can ever compare to knowing our Lord, the creator of the universe!

My next questions are:
*Do you, jm, or any others on this forum feel the Life of God (Spirit of God) coming upon you as you eat the body of Christ and drink his blood? Do you feel an increase of his presence (his peace, his closeness)?

*What is the most important purpose of Communion?

Linda Marie asked me why I don’t believe John 6 refers specifically to the rite of Communion. (I do believe John 6 talks about what Communion points to.)

The first reason is the context.

The second reason is Jesus does not say he is referring to the rite of Communion.

A third reason is what my NIV Study Bible notes say. The NIV Study Bible was written by scholars from various Protestant denominations. It says “Jesus’ absolute statement that ‘unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you’ (v. 53) precludes a direct reference to the Lord’s Supper. He clearly does not teach that receiving that sacrament is the one requirement for eternal life or that it is the only ordinance through which Christ and his saving benefits are received. In this very discourse he emphasizes faith in response to testimony (see vv. 35, 40, 47, 51). Flesh and blood here point to Christ as the crucified one and the source of life.”

A interesting parallel apparently appears in John 7:37-38 where Jesus says, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.”

God bless you, my sisters & brothers.
I don’t have time to respond to every comment directed towards me, but I did read them all.

 

[jmcrae]

I agree with all that and am experiencing it as well. Isn’t it great! Nothing in the world can ever compare to knowing our Lord, the creator of the universe!

My next questions are:
*Do you, jm, or any others on this forum feel the Life of God (Spirit of God) coming upon you as you eat the body of Christ and drink his blood? Do you feel an increase of his presence (his peace, his closeness)?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I know by faith that Jesus is coming to me, but not always by means of my senses or my emotions. As St. Thomas Aquinas so eloquently put it, “Praestet fides supplementum sensuum defectui.” (Where senses fail, faith provides or literally, Faith for all defects supplying, where the feeble senses fail.)

Of course, there are also times when I feel infused with that golden cloud of joy and peace, which is a beautiful consolation for me.

*What is the most important purpose of Communion?

To fall more deeply in love with Jesus.

 

[PRmerger]

My next questions are:
*Do you, jm, or any others on this forum feel the Life of God (Spirit of God) coming upon you as you eat the body of Christ and drink his blood? Do you feel an increase of his presence (his peace, his closeness)?

Not each and every time.

But I have a question for you, Cal. If you are married, do you feel the Life of God coming upon you each and every time you gaze at your beloved, over your oatmeal each and every morning?

Do you feel an increase of peace, closeness and love each and every time you drive beside each other, driving to get gas and then to pick up new tires?

Do you wake up and glory in the sleepy bed-headed beauty of your beloved every morning?

(If you are not married, perhaps you can imagine? Does this happen in married love?)

 

[Linda_Marie]

I agree with all that and am experiencing it as well. Isn’t it great! Nothing in the world can ever compare to knowing our Lord, the creator of the universe!

My next questions are:
*Do you, jm, or any others on this forum feel the Life of God (Spirit of God) coming upon you as you eat the body of Christ and drink his blood? Do you feel an increase of his presence (his peace, his closeness)?

*What is the most important purpose of Communion?

Sometimes I feel something, sometimes I don’t, but I have faith that the Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus whether I feel something or not.

We cannot go by what we feel. Feeling is not consistent. We must continue to have faith even if we don’t feel anything.

What is the purpose of communion in your services?

Linda Marie asked me why I don’t believe John 6 refers specifically to the rite of Communion. (I do believe John 6 talks about what Communion points to.)

The first reason is the context.

The second reason is Jesus does not say he is referring to the rite of Communion.

A third reason is what my NIV Study Bible notes say. The NIV Study Bible was written by scholars from various Protestant denominations. It says “Jesus’ absolute statement that ‘unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you’ (v. 53) precludes a direct reference to the Lord’s Supper. He clearly does not teach that receiving that sacrament is the one requirement for eternal life or that it is the only ordinance through which Christ and his saving benefits are received. In this very discourse he emphasizes faith in response to testimony (see vv. 35, 40, 47, 51). Flesh and blood here point to Christ as the crucified one and the source of life.”

A interesting parallel apparently appears in John 7:37-38 where Jesus says, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.”

God bless you, my sisters & brothers.
I don’t have time to respond to every comment directed towards me, but I did read them all.

Why do you accept the Protestant scholars as having the Authority to declare flatly that John 6 is not about the Eucharist? Why do they deny it so vehemently?

Why do you trust them to teach you the Truth?

What is their Authority?

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I know by faith that Jesus is coming to me, but not always by means of my senses or my emotions. . . .
Of course, there are also times when I feel infused with that golden cloud of joy and peace, which is a beautiful consolation for me.

That’s great, jm. I relate to that. Sometimes when I go to church or read the Bible I don’t feel anything, but later in the day, if I’m paying attention, I often can tell the difference—as opposed to those days when I don’t spend much time in the Word or in fellowship with God or his spiritual people.

I don’t doubt that the Spirit of God comes upon the bread and wine when the priest consecrates them in faith, expecting something to happen.
I’ve learned something about Catholic communion that I hadn’t known. It sounds more powerful in Catholic churches than in others.

Perhaps you folks can learn something from us about getting into his presence through praise—but that’s another subject.

[The biggest purpose of communion is] to fall more deeply in love with Jesus.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Not each and every time.

But I have a question for you, Cal. If you are married, do you feel the Life of God coming upon you each and every time you gaze at your beloved, over your oatmeal each and every morning?

Good point.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

That’s great, jm. I relate to that. Sometimes when I go to church or read the Bible I don’t feel anything, but later in the day, if I’m paying attention, I often can tell the difference—as opposed to those days when I don’t spend much time in the Word or in fellowship with God or his spiritual people.

I don’t doubt that the Spirit of God comes upon the bread and wine when the priest consecrates them in faith, expecting something to happen.
I’ve learned something about Catholic communion that I hadn’t known. It sounds more powerful in Catholic churches than in others.

Perhaps you folks can learn something from us about getting into his presence through praise—but that’s another subject.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Oops, my last post was a mistake.

Sometimes I feel something, sometimes I don’t, but I have faith that the Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus whether I feel something or not.

We cannot go by what we feel. Feeling is not consistent. We must continue to have faith even if we don’t feel anything.

What is the purpose of communion in your services?

Why do you accept the Protestant scholars as having the Authority to declare flatly that John 6 is not about the Eucharist? Why do they deny it so vehemently?

Why do you trust them to teach you the Truth?

What is their Authority?

Good point about feelings.

This is not an official answer, but I would say our purpose for communion is to remember and meditate on what Jesus did for us, and our being one with him through his sacrifice.
The church I grew up in used to encourage us to examine ourselves because of a verse in 1 Cor. 11, but I don’t personally believe that’s necessary for us as it was for the Corinthians. They were totally abusing the Lord’s Supper, as you know.

I’m running out of time before dinner but I don’t trust Protestant scholars as much as you suggest. Psalms says those who trust in man are unwise; but those who trust in God are smart.

 

[jmcrae]

T
Perhaps you folks can learn something from us about getting into his presence through praise—but that’s another subject.

I think the Filipinos have already beaten you to it.

I love Filipino Catholics - they are so joyful and so excited about their Catholic faith - it is a joy to be around them. :extrahappy: :extrahappy: :extrahappy:

 

[PRmerger]

I think the Filipinos have already beaten you to it.

I love Filipino Catholics - they are so joyful and so excited about their Catholic faith - it is a joy to be around them. :extrahappy: :extrahappy: :extrahappy:

And that, friend, is why I like you so much. :hug1:

PR–your Filipino Catholic–merger Friend.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

“Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity.” Yes, His spirit certainly does displace the bread - just not all by itself. It is the entire Jesus; not only a part of Him.

What attribute of Jesus is not in His Spirit? In my thinking, all of Jesus—except, of course, his resurrected body—is in the Holy Spirit. That’s why we can call the Spirit “God.”

Regardless, I am glad I understand now that the Spirit of God comes into, or often comes into, the bread and wine. That’s something that is easy for me to believe. Oral Roberts used to, & his son, Richard, still does I think, pray over pieces of cloth which are sent out to people requesting them. Many have been healed as a result. There’s something in the book of Acts about that sort of things but I can’t find it.

You folks believe God still does miracles today, don’t you? But that’s another subject.

God bless.

 

[PRmerger]

What attribute of Jesus is not in His Spirit? In my thinking, all of Jesus—except, of course, his resurrected body—is in the Holy Spirit. That’s why we can call the Spirit “God.”

Ok. But if you were one of the Apostles and you were told by another Apostle, “I felt His Spirit come upon me” vs “I actually touched Him! We became ONE together!” which one do you think you would choose?