SPLIT: The Eucharist in Scripture and Catholic teaching.

[brb3]

This is what I don’t think I’ll ever understand despite your patient attempts to help me.

So in my mind, if Jesus comes into the bread, it has to be either his resurrected, glorified body; or it is his Spirit. Since the Holy Spirit contains all of his essence, there is no way he could come into the bread without his Spirit coming in too. And yet someone told me his Spirit does not come into the bread.

The Trinity is not divided / segregated. That is why when Christ says he is present in the Host … we receive ALL of Him sacrificed body/blood, resurrected body/blood, soul, and divinity.

I’d say someone misspoke … if they said the H.S. is not in the Eucharist.

Most of any material is EMPTY space, at the atomic level. 99.9999999 % of the atom is empty space. Plenty of room for a SUPERNATURAL Lord to reside in. And, our P-Chem. laws are not able to detect or measure the Supernatural’s presence.

That’s why if one ran chemical tests on the ‘blessed’ host … the experimenter would only detect wine or bread’s carbo/protein/mineral constituents.

It always comes back to the question of FAITH … scientists can’t quantify or measure God’s presence in the Holy Presence. God planned it that way … and if in the year 2525, man is still alive, & woman can survive … they will still need FAITH to receive Christ, -----just as first century Christians did.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Hi, Cal…I am not sure if this has been posted yet…and hope this helps…this is how Catholics interpret scripture…

mark-shea.com/tradition.html

Nope. It simply acted as a lens and refocused the light of Scripture so that something which had been hidden there was now visible. For, despite appearances, the dogmatic definitions of the Church do not just pop up with absolutely no relation to Scripture. Rather, they assemble the materially sufficient revelation of Scripture using the mortar of Sacred Tradition. And that Tradition is not separate, secret and parallel to Scripture, but the common teaching, life, and worship of the Church. In the case of the Council of Jerusalem, the common teaching from the apostles included the then-unwritten command of Christ to preach the gospel to the whole world (Mt 28:19). It included the as-yet-unwritten common knowledge of Peter’s mystical revelation by the Holy Spirit (“Do not call anything impure that God has made clean” [Acts 10:15]). It included the experiences of Paul and Barnabas in preaching to the Gentiles (Acts 15:12). It is through this Sacred Tradition that James reads Scripture and sees in Scripture, not a judge or “final rule of faith” but a witness to the authoritative decision of the Church in Council. For he says not “we agree with the Prophet Amos” but rather that the words of the prophets “agree with” the Council (Acts 15:15). In short, the Council places the Church on the judge’s seat and the Scripture in the witness box, deriving its revelation not from Scripture alone but from Sacred Tradition and the magisterial authority of the apostles in union with Scripture. And so materially sufficient bricks of Old Testament revelation, which we thought were made to build into a synagogue are stacked and mortared with apostolic Tradition by the trowel of the Church’s magisterial authority, and turn out to make a cathedral instead.

The biblical Council, like the modern Catholic Church, places Scripture in the context of Tradition and magisterial, apostolic authority. The biblical Council, like the modern Catholic Church, speaks with apostolic authority and declares, “It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us…” (Acts 15:29). And so, the biblical Council, just like the modern Catholic Church, develops a doctrine which, to “Bible-only” eyes, appears to flatly nullify Scripture yet which, upon closer inspection, turns out to uphold it (Rom 3:31).

This pattern of seeing Scripture in light of Sacred Tradition is absolutely crucial to understand, because failure to grasp it accounts for an enormous amount of misunderstanding. Evangelicals who have received (usually without realizing it) a pair of contact lenses colored by the Tradition of the Closure of Public Revelation can “see” that Tradition implied in Paul’s commands to Timothy. Yet we do not derive the doctrine from Scripture. Rather, we see it reflected there. But since Evangelicals have not received the contact lenses with the Tradition of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, they are unable to see it reflect there. Instead, they imagine that doctrine is arrived at by Catholics sitting down with a Bible and saying, “Let’s see. What is the most tortured and extreme reading I can get out of Matthew 1:25 today? Hey! Let’s say Mary remained a virgin perpetually!”

Hi pablope.
Thanks for your nicely written essay above. I’ve tried to wade through it, though my mind suffers from sugar-hangover from Christmas Day.
I have never imagined that Catholic doctrine is arrived at by Catholics sitting down with a Bible and saying, “Let’s see. What is the most tortured and extreme reading I can get out of it today?”
Rather, God has taught me to see the heart and intent of people. That’s what he does.

We can be so thankful that he does that, can’t we? And if our hearts are wanting to please him, and they are connected into heaven’s electricity, we are accepted by him because he looks at us through the lens of Christ’s sacrifice for us—celebrated by the Eucharist.

Have a happy New Year.

 

[PRmerger]

I have never imagined that Catholic doctrine is arrived at by Catholics sitting down with a Bible…

Indeed. The Catholic faith was whole and entire before a single word of the NT was ever put to script.

It is a mistake to think that the Faith comes from the Bible. Rather, the Bible comes from the Faith of the Apostles.

Rather, the Scriptures reflect the paradosis of Jesus that was committed, once for all, to the saints

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal Fullerton View Post
Good point.
It would be interesting to me to see how you folks understand John 6:60-66.
In John 6:63-65, Jesus, still on the same subject, says, “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe. . . . This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

When Jesus says, “the flesh counts for nothing,” I imagine that he is reassuring them that he is not talking about cannibolism but is talking about receiving the Spirit of himself.

How do you read John 6:60 and following?

adrift responded with, “In the Garden as Jesus prayed He refers to the Spirit is willing but the flesh is week. It is a reference to the supernatural and the natural. All that Jesus said about the bread of life is the revelation of the Spirit not understandable by the flesh by our human minds. Are human nature is week.”

Great. I agree with that completely. (I thought you sounded like a Protestant until I noticed in the heading that you’re Catholic!)

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Indeed. The Catholic faith was whole and entire before a single word of the NT was ever put to script.

It is a mistake to think that the Faith comes from the Bible. Rather, the Bible comes from the Faith of the Apostles

I believe it is both. The Bible comes from the faith of the Apostles and faith comes from the Bible—and the Apostles.

the Scriptures reflect the paradosis of Jesus that was committed, once for all, to the saints

Please explain this some more. Paradosis?

 

[PRmerger]

I believe it is both. The Bible comes from the faith of the Apostles and faith comes from the Bible—and the Apostles.

How could faith come from the Bible, which wasn’t written until 400 years after the paradosis?

That’s like from the time of the Pilgrims arriving at Plymouth Rock to today without a Constitution!

Please explain this some more. Paradosis?

The oral proclamation of the Gospel.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

I feel as if you are trying to put a seed of doubt in my head. That is how I read this post. Which I think is horrible. But I suppose its my own fault for even posting in the first place God has, and still is calling me home to the CC. There has been many signs for me, and numerous prayers answered. I have my ideas of what the good Lord is, and wants from us. Then I open My Catechism and find that its exactly what the Church stands for and professes.

Did you think I was trying to put doubt in your head that Jesus is your Savior? That you have found him in the Catholic Church? OH, NO! A THOUSAND TIMES, NO!
I’m glad you told me how you felt so I could reassure you that I am not trying to do that.

This what is difficult about interdenominational communication. It’s also often difficult for me because many of you—some to a lesser extent than others—have implied that I do not currently know the Lord, that I have not been walking with him for 28 years. This is horrible to me. It tends to drag me down.

But I believe the Lord has shown me that he is very grieved over the divisions that exist in his church (by church I mean everyone—Catholic, Protestant, or what have you—who is trusting in Jesus Christ as their Lord.

I suggest you use the NAB.

I believe this is what you believe. I think the most important question to be asked, is how who was there interpreted it. Peter was there and he started the CC.

I do have an NAB, and I will use it if it helps bridge the gap between us.

I have thought, as well, that if we started another thread it would make sense to discuss what the church of Jesus Christ is. So much of what you folks say is premised on your belief that the Catholic Church is thee church of Jesus Christ—not just one Christian denomination—and that your leaders are the only ones who have authority to interpret Scriptures.

My purpose is not to get you to leave the Catholic faith. My main purpose is to bridge gaps. In order to do this, I have to learn what you believe.

Please pray for me to end up there. I would be most obliged:thumbsup:

Dios te Bendiga
labarrios

I will put you on my prayer list.
I think you’re A-OK, labarrios

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond. I’ve been away for a while.

Yes. I have received the gift of tongues and prophetic tongues. I used to experience visions and locutions as well but haven’t for some time now. As my avator shows, I am in the desert, spiritually.

I hope you find your way out of the desert!
How often do you speak in tongues? (I know I’m off topic.) I use the gift a lot, especially when I’m milking cows in the milking parlor. Patience, power over fearful thoughts, better concentration, joy, peace, love for people, and efficiency at work, are among the benefits!!

By “prophetic tongues” do you mean the gift of prophecy? I believe all Christians can prophesy (according to somewhere in 1 Cor. 14, I think).

One time I asked God to give me a little vision (picture) and speak to me. I then saw a pair of sneakers, and he said, "Remember, it’s a race you’re running. To win a race you don’t take any detours [he said this sentence twice]. You don’t take the long way. You take the shortest route. You’re not walking it out, you’re running it out."

I had been allowing the devil to take me on little detours. That is, I had been letting him distract me from the course God had set out for me. We all do that, don’t we?

 

[DCNBILL]

How could faith come from the Bible, which wasn’t written until 400 years after the paradosis?

That’s like from the time of the Pilgrims arriving at Plymouth Rock to today without a Constitution!

The oral proclamation of the Gospel.

It is also fitting to note that the Eucharist was being celebrated during this time, prior to any of the Gospels being written. The Eucharist proceeds the written Gospel. The Gospels were written in the light of the celebration of the Eucharist.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

How could faith come from the Bible . . . ?

I may be taking you out of context, PR, but here’s the verse I would respond with (from the NAB!):

Romans 1:16:
I am not ashamed of the gospel. It is the power of God leading everyone who believes in it to salvation.

The gospel is in the Bible, is it not?

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Originally Posted by labarrios View Post
Please pray for me to end up there [heaven]. I would be most obliged

Brother labarrios, as long as Jesus is in your heart, you can be assured that you will end up there. Do you believe that?

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Both sides have compelling arguments, the critical component is Deity, Trinity and resurrection.

Welcome, Charlie!

Yes, both sides believe in the deity of Christ, in the Trinity, and in the resurrection of Christ!

 

[jmcrae]

So much of what you folks say is premised on your belief that the Catholic Church is thee church of Jesus Christ—not just one Christian denomination—

This part is a historical fact, and very difficult to get around, unless one simply ignores recorded history, or fantasizes that something else (a “hidden” Protestant church) was also in existence at the same time, that for some reason kept no written records (and yet somehow we can know they existed? )

The Catholic Church, headed by the Bishop of Rome since 67 AD, was the only form of Christianity in existence for more than a thousand years. There was no other.

and that your leaders are the only ones who have authority to interpret Scriptures.

This is the logical conclusion to draw, when one realizes that Peter’s Church and the Church of Rome are one and the same; the Church of Rome is what grew out of the bloody seed of martyrdom planted by Peter on his upside down cross there on Vatican Hill. (As Christ Himself prophesied, “… and upon this Peter I shall build My Church.” Matthew 16:18-19)

 

[PRmerger]

I may be taking you out of context, PR, but here’s the verse I would respond with (from the NAB!):

Romans 1:16:
I am not ashamed of the gospel. It is the power of God leading everyone who believes in it to salvation.

The gospel is in the Bible, is it not?

Cal, did Paul have Matthew, Mark, Luke and John’s gospels at his disposal when he wrote Romans? Did he have Revelation, Hebrews, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John?

Or do you think that he was talking about, well, the paradosis here?

Clearly, he could not have been talking about the Bible, right?

 

[labarrios]

Did you think I was trying to put doubt in your head that Jesus is your Savior? That you have found him in the Catholic Church? OH, NO! A THOUSAND TIMES, NO!
I’m glad you told me how you felt so I could reassure you that I am not trying to do that.

This what is difficult about interdenominational communication. It’s also often difficult for me because many of you—some to a lesser extent than others—have implied that I do not currently know the Lord, that I have not been walking with him for 28 years. This is horrible to me. It tends to drag me down.

But I believe the Lord has shown me that he is very grieved over the divisions that exist in his church (by church I mean everyone—Catholic, Protestant, or what have you—who is trusting in Jesus Christ as their Lord.

I do have an NAB, and I will use it if it helps bridge the gap between us.

I have thought, as well, that if we started another thread it would make sense to discuss what the church of Jesus Christ is. So much of what you folks say is premised on your belief that the Catholic Church is thee church of Jesus Christ—not just one Christian denomination—and that your leaders are the only ones who have authority to interpret Scriptures.

My purpose is not to get you to leave the Catholic faith. My main purpose is to bridge gaps. In order to do this, I have to learn what you believe.

I will put you on my prayer list.
I think you’re A-OK, labarrios

I am glad You are not trying to get me to leave the CC. I suppose I run into that a lot with non Catholic Christians. My apologies. Old wounds I guess. However that would be another thread I too would never want to put a wedge between someone and the Lord. which can happen when we get down to the nitty gritty of faith questions between Protestants and Catholics.
I believe That bridges can be built between denominations also and have been, however bridges always lead to somewhere. That is why you have people leaving and coming to the CC. What I have run into a lot is that the ones that leave, never really had an understanding of the mass and the faith in the first place. They were told to do a bunch of things without any explanation behind it. (Usually the parents leaving it up the Religious Education Teachers to explain in class) So I think it is wonderful that you honestly desire to understand the Faith that is our Church. It is a Faith, not a religion. Without faith one cannot believe in the Real Presence of the Christ in the Eucharist. For me its that simple. That the Trinity is big enough and grand enough and oh so most powerful that is is not unbelievable for the presence of the most important sacrifice in the history of creation To truly be present in the Eucharist. It just boils down to Faith.

I Hope you had a Wonderful awe inspiring Christmas!
Dios Te Bendiga Hoy y Siempre!
labarrios

 

[labarrios]

Brother labarrios, as long as Jesus is in your heart, you can be assured that you will end up there. Do you believe that?

My Faith is in God, He will and has led me. I have Jesus in my heart and I know he can lead me to Heaven, and will give me every opportunity until the day I die to do so. I pray every day for him to guide me to do his will. However I also know I am human and a sinner, and our free will complicates things. There are sins I am working on that I am aware of, and some I am not, and am sure he will reveal to me when the time is right. I believe Salvation is a gift that can be thrown away by our selfish sinful ways and that our road to Salvation starts with excepting Jesus in our Hearts not ending there. I know and profess Jesus is our Lord, but I am still imperfect. Perfection is a process that ends at death when we are pure and with God. Lets hope I make the cut eh! However Only God can tell, and Only He can lead me there. That is what I believe.
I will say this much so we don’t get pinned for totally going off topic… When the Good Lord was leading me to truly understand the Eucharist something changed in me. This whole path to him that he has me on, is leading me to partake more and more in the Sacraments, and the Ah ha moment I had with the Eucharist was…I cant even begin to put words to it. There are no words equal to when God reveals himself to you. To truly believe in the RP. For me its indescribable.

La Paz Contigo!
labarrios

 

[Linda_Marie]

I hope you find your way out of the desert!
How often do you speak in tongues? (I know I’m off topic.) I use the gift a lot, especially when I’m milking cows in the milking parlor. Patience, power over fearful thoughts, better concentration, joy, peace, love for people, and efficiency at work, are among the benefits!!

By “prophetic tongues” do you mean the gift of prophecy? I believe all Christians can prophesy (according to somewhere in 1 Cor. 14, I think).

One time I asked God to give me a little vision (picture) and speak to me. I then saw a pair of sneakers, and he said, "Remember, it’s a race you’re running. To win a race you don’t take any detours [he said this sentence twice]. You don’t take the long way. You take the shortest route. You’re not walking it out, you’re running it out."

I had been allowing the devil to take me on little detours. That is, I had been letting him distract me from the course God had set out for me. We all do that, don’t we?

Prophetic tongues is the gift of prophecy but in tongues. It requires someone with the gift of Interpretation to translate it. This being the case, it is one of the least of the gifts.

It is against forum rules to discuss what we have received in visions or locutions. Here are some guidelines in discernment to help us determine if what we have received is actually from God or another source (such as ourselves or the evil one).

Mystics Prophets & Seers

Accordingly, we must be neither incredulous, for spiritual manifestations are possible; nor credulous, for they are frequently illusory. They should be examined seriously, and for a long time, and if they are seen to be of doubtful or diabolical origin, they should be completely disregarded; but on the other hand; they should be accepted when they are supernatural. This was Saint Paul’s advice: “Extinguish not the spirit, despise not prophecies; but prove all things. Hold fast that which is good.” (I Thess. 5:19-21).

There are many approved visionaries and seers whose works are well worth reading. I recommend The Life and Revelations of St. Gertrude the Great who made known to us the Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and The Way of Perfection and The Interior Castle by St. Teresa of Avila.

I may be taking you out of context, PR, but here’s the verse I would respond with (from the NAB!):

Romans 1:16:
I am not ashamed of the gospel. It is the power of God leading everyone who believes in it to salvation.

The gospel is in the Bible, is it not?

The Gospel is the Good News of Christ. The Gospel was proclaimed long before pen was put to paper and the 4 gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were written.

There were other written gospels, such as the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Peter, that were not included in the Bible when the Church determined, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which works were divinely inspired, which were heretical and which were profitable for our spiritual development while not being divinely inspired. Both the gospels of Thomas and Peter were rejected as heretical, while the letters of Clement, for instance, are profitable reading.

The Eucharist is in the Bible.

The Eucharist in Scripture

 

[rom422]

Good point.
It would be interesting to me to see how you folks understand John 6:60-66.
In John 6:63-65, Jesus, still on the same subject, says, “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe. . . . This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

When Jesus says, “the flesh counts for nothing,” I imagine that he is reassuring them that he is not talking about cannibolism but is talking about receiving the Spirit of himself.

How do you read John 6:60 and following?

I am late in this thread, but I hope I can still contribute my 2 cents. You asked how we interpret Christ’s words in John 6:63-65. Personally I think what He means is this: “It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh (without the Spirit) counts for nothing.” Clearly, the flesh without the Spirit would be dead flesh, and it would profit no one.

The interpretation you stated in your next paragraph puzzles me. You said, “When Jesus says, ‘the flesh counts for nothing,’ I imagine that he is reassuring them that he is not talking about cannibolism but is talking about receiving the Spirit of himself.” So, you think that He wasn’t really telling them to eat His flesh, but was merely asking them to receive only His Spirit?

That is where I disagree with you. Read again John 6:47-59, and notice that most of the time Christ does not refer to His flesh as “the flesh.” Instead, He says “my flesh” and “my blood.” He did not ask His listeners to eat any kind of flesh, including dead flesh. What He told them was to eat His living flesh, a flesh animated by His Spirit. No wonder it sounded like cannibalism to many of the listeners, which is why they walked away.

Notice also, that after saying “It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh counts for nothing,” He quickly added this: “the words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life.” This implies that what He had told them earlier (about eating His flesh and drinking His blood) is for real. Those words - though hard to accept - are Spirit and Life, so you better believe it!

 

[PRmerger]

That is where I disagree with you. Read again John 6:47-59, and notice that most of the time Christ does not refer to His flesh as “the flesh.” Instead, He says “my flesh” and “my blood.” He did not ask His listeners to eat any kind of flesh, including dead flesh. What He told them was to eat His living flesh, a flesh animated by His Spirit. No wonder it sounded like cannibalism to many of the listeners, which is why they walked away.

Indeed, and if Jesus really means that the flesh counts for nothing, then the Flesh, that was given in atonement for the sins of the world, counted for nothing, and we are not all saved?

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal Fullerton View Post
So much of what you folks say is premised on your belief that the Catholic Church is thee church of Jesus Christ—not just one Christian denomination—

jmcrea said, "This part is a historical fact. . . .

The Catholic Church, headed by the Bishop of Rome since 67 AD, was the only form of Christianity in existence for more than a thousand years. There was no other.

But what about now?

I hope you had a fun and spiritual holiday. Fun and spiritual go together, don’t they, crea?

(I’ve been pronouncing crea, cray. Is that correct? Or doesn’t it matter?)