SPLIT: The Eucharist in Scripture and Catholic teaching.

[labarrios]

I’m a little confused here.
I agree that faith without works is dead, and that you can’t buy your way to heaven.

But your third sentence seems to say that you are not going to go to heaven even if you participate in all the Sacraments and live your life how the Bible says to live it. I bet you probably didn’t mean to say that!

No I meant to say that. Let me try and put it another way…If I do all these things without the intent of love in my heart just for entrance into heaven, I’m never gonna get there. So that true desire and love needs to be there before one dies. Hey but practice makes perfect Will I make it there? Of course I want to be with God when I die, and only he knows my heart. I pray that I die in the state of Grace. I love God! He has saved me. He is saving me now, by showing me the worldly things I hold onto that keep me from him. The Eucharist is fostering that in me, along with his Word and love. The Eucharist is like a seed that grows inside of you. And I pray that His Spirit grows ever more inside of me, and inspires me to make the right choices that lead me to Him, and He saves me once again.

Dios te Bendiga

labarrios

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[jmcrae]

Hi jm.
So what you’re saying is that Jesus gave authority to the Catholic (you’re using “Catholic” to mean universal) church in AD 33; and Jesus gave Peter authority to be the head (Pope) of the church; and the authority has been passed from bishop to bishop (through the laying on of hands?) down to the present day.

(If I repeat back to you what you said, and you are satisfied with my representation of what you said, then I think I can say I understand it—at least until I forget—hopefully I won’t forget. )

Precisely.

If there was a bad pope—a man who was in total rebellion against God—would that have broken the chain of authority? If not, why not?

He could not - no more than Richard Nixon could cause the United States of America to cease to exist by means of his actions, or take away the authority of the Presidency. Barak Obama has exactly the same authority today that George Washington had when he was first elected - no more and no less, regardless of what Richard Nixon or any other President ever did.

It is the same with the Church, and the Papacy. Neither of them ceases to exist on the basis of anyone’s wrong-doing or abuse of authority.

Does the word “Christmas” come from “Christ Mass”? I’m almost embarrassed to ask , since it seems virtually obvious that it did.

Yep. The proper name is actually The Mass of the Nativity of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and it was established in 150 AD by Pope Pius I. The liturgy for Christmas Mass hasn’t changed very much since then - it still begins with the singing of Christmas carols, followed by the Proclamation of Christmas, and the carrying of an image of the Christ Child in procession, followed by the opening rites, and continuing just as a regular Mass, with the readings from the Gospel of Luke about the birth of Christ.

The Christmas Pageant is optional, and was added by St. Francis during the 12th century. (In those days, it took place outside in the street; not inside the Church.)

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Hi everybody!
Let’s see . . . . the oldest comment I haven’t responded to is . . . . #337 by Linda Marie, the Queen of Catholic Answers!

The following will also be a response to JM.

Only a priest whose ordination is in the line of Apostolic Succession has the power to confect the Eucharist. All Protestant Communions are symbolic only because their priests/pastors are not ordained in Apostolic Succession.

Again, I make a warning against depending on feelings. Sometimes we lose the feelings we once had. If our faith depends on feelings, we can lose our faith along with the feelings.

Good point. Feelings are affected by circumstances as well as the Spirit.

I think I said this before, but I have heard of Protestants who find Communion powerful and helpful in ways that go beyond the experiences of most Protestants. I know of one book on it—and I’m sure there are others. (I have renewed interest in such books now, having talked to you and the other folks here.)

I’ve heard of some who take communion every day in their home because of the helpful power they find in it.

I’ve heard of Protestants being physically healed during Communion.

I think we receive what we believe for (Mark 11:23-25). “I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours” (Mark 11:24).
I’ve received healing many times through believing prayer—although not during Communion.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

LOL. Hey, where did it say in the Bible that only ordinary catholics can use their own minds to interpret the Scriptures?

LOL. That’s not exactly what I meant.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

The Church is very careful about what She puts into the public arena, and makes sure ahead of time (without the need of a rowdy scene with the ushers) that when someone claims to be speaking for the Lord, that they are in fact doing so. The Church has all of eternity, so these things are seldom rushed. Most people don’t know within their own lifetimes whether or not their locutions have been accepted as authentic by the Church. Indeed, one of the salient signs that a locution is genuine is if the person goes to his or her grave an obedient child of the Church, even when feeling that they have been misunderstood by Her.

My God! If Linda Marie’s charismatic Catholic church is anything like Protestant charismatic churches, attending it might be quite a shock to an average Catholic.

In our church, as in many charismatic churches, if someone has a prophetic message from God, they can speak it out without prior permission, so long as they don’t interrupt the orderly flow of the service (according to 1 Cor. 14). I can only think of 2 or 3 times over the past 28 years when someone gave a message that was discerned to not be from God. On one of those occasions the messenger was peacefully removed by the ushers—no great harm done.

If the messenger had to wait until the end of his or her life to give the message, my God, think of all the people who could have been encouraged by the message that never were. We don’t have all of eternity. Jesus is coming back. The times are urgent. People are going to hell in hand baskets all over the world because they lack food, peace, health, and most of all, the good news that can save them from the power of Satan. (I’m feeling punchy tonight.:knight2

 

[jmcrae]

LOL. Hey, where did it say in the Bible that only ordinary catholics can use their own minds to interpret the Scriptures?

LOL. That’s not exactly what I meant.

So - priests, Bishops, Cardinals, and Popes could potentially get it right, as well, right? (Especially considering that they spend their entire lives studying not only the Bible but also everything else that was left to us by the Apostles, as well.)

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Private revelation is only binding on the person receiving it, not on anyone else. If someone is told they must fast 3 days a week, for example, it is only for them.

Yes.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

while we have had some horrendous sinners in the office of the papacy, not a single sinner has ever proclaimed a teaching on faith and morals that was in error.

How do you know that?

 

[jmcrae]

My God! If Linda Marie’s charismatic Catholic church is anything like Protestant charismatic churches, attending it might be quite a shock to an average Catholic.

I’ve been to Catholic Charismatic meetings and Masses. The “prophetic messages” are usually quite vague, mostly platitudes like, “Jesus wants you to know that He loves you” and things like that. Harmless, and definitely not earth-shattering.

But something like the messages to the children of Fatima, which were actual prophecies concerning Russian Communism, require discernment and thoughtfulness.

Some five year old kid (St. Francisco) getting up and telling the congregation on May 13th 1914 saying, “Hey, the Communists are coming to burn all our churches down, and the dead will be falling into Hell like snowflakes in a November blizzard for the next seventy-five years” - that’s something the Pope needs to know about, right? And you don’t just let it lie there without a lot of discernment and prayer. I think it was finally declared to be “worthy of belief” in 1989, after the wall came down and the seventy five years were fulfilled.

It did, in fact, turn out to be true, but is there anything they could have done to save themselves that they didn’t already know? They already knew that they were required to remain faithful to Christ through every storm.

If the messenger had to wait until the end of his or her life to give the message, my God, think of all the people who could have been encouraged by the message that never were. We don’t have all of eternity. Jesus is coming back. The times are urgent.

The times have always been urgent. Some more urgent than others.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

I’m up to #348. I’m looking forward to responding to #348 next week because I can see that the Trinity is the topic—something I think we need to address in order for me to sort out the seemingly non-sensible comments about transubstantiation. Hopefully, I can make sense out of them yet. That would be a wonderful breakthrough.

Love to all. I hope I didn’t offend anyone.
Your faith is precious.
Our God is precious.

 

[jmcrae]

How do you know that?

Because we’re still following all ten Commandments and all eight Beatitudes, without compromise.

No Pope, even those who were sodomites, ever said, “Sodomy is no longer a sin.” No adulterous Pope ever declared there to be such a thing as a “Biblical divorce.” No Pope who stole from the common treasury ever created a law that says it’s okay for the rich not to pay their taxes (aka steal from the common treasury).

 

[PRmerger]

Because, thankfully, the authority lies in the office, not the man. Thus, while we have had some horrendous sinners in the office of the papacy, not a single sinner has ever proclaimed a teaching on faith and morals that was in error.

How do you know that?

Can you name a teaching that a pope has changed that was subsequently in error?

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

I just looked up the word church in my Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words. What I found is not unrelated to our topic.

The Greek term most often associated with the word church—the word used by Jesus in Matthew 18:17—has two definitions.

One definition is "the whole company of the redeemed, described as “the Church which is His Body” in Ephesians 1:22-23.

The second definition is “a company consisting of professed believers.” (Sounds the same as the first one to me.)

I think these definitions support the evangelical view (which of course is the right one ) that the church is made up of all born-again believers (followers of Jesus, Christians, those who have Jesus living in their hearts). I believe from what the Bible says, as well as my experience, that the Church is scattered among many denominations and movements.

You say the bread becomes the body of Christ. I say God’s people become the body of Christ. That means PR, jm, Linda Marie, labbrios, me, and all Protestants who have bowed their knee (their lives) to the Holy One of Israel! We’re all in the family! :grouphug:

 

[Luvtosew]

I’m obviously not Matt, but I would just like to say that I think it’s good that you are willing to think about this, Adrift. Have you also asked God to reveal to you what Jesus meant?

I know from experience that one does not have to participate in the Catholic Eucharist to become a Christian because Jesus has been living in me, a Protestant, for about 28 years now. He has changed my life in countless ways—from the inside out! If you will become personally acquainted with 10 typical Protestants, and look for evidence that Jesus is in them, you will most likely discover that Jesus lives in Protestants as well.

Thanks.

Well since I have a brother , and nephews who turned Protestants and most of my friends are, I do believe you are correct.

 

[Linda_Marie]

You say the bread becomes the body of Christ. I say God’s people become the body of Christ. That means PR, jm, Linda Marie, labbrios, me, and all Protestants who have bowed their knee (their lives) to the Holy One of Israel! We’re all in the family! :grouphug:

Yes, indeed, the Church is the Body of Christ. That doesn’t mean that the Eucharist isn’t. While we are mystically the Body of Christ, the Eucharist is literally the Body and Blood of Christ.

Paragraph 2. The Church - People of God, Body of Christ, Temple of the Holy Spirit

The Church is communion with Jesus

787 From the beginning, Jesus associated his disciples with his own life, revealed the mystery of the Kingdom to them, and gave them a share in his mission, joy, and sufferings.215 Jesus spoke of a still more intimate communion between him and those who would follow him: "Abide in me, and I in you. . . . I am the vine, you are the branches."216 And he proclaimed a mysterious and real communion between his own body and ours: "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him."217

788 When his visible presence was taken from them, Jesus did not leave his disciples orphans. He promised to remain with them until the end of time; he sent them his Spirit.218 As a result communion with Jesus has become, in a way, more intense: "By communicating his Spirit, Christ mystically constitutes as his body those brothers of his who are called together from every nation."219

789 The comparison of the Church with the body casts light on the intimate bond between Christ and his Church. Not only is she gathered around him; she is united in him, in his body. Three aspects of the Church as the Body of Christ are to be more specifically noted: the unity of all her members with each other as a result of their union with Christ; Christ as head of the Body; and the Church as bride of Christ.

“One Body”

790 Believers who respond to God’s word and become members of Christ’s Body, become intimately united with him: "In that body the life of Christ is communicated to those who believe, and who, through the sacraments, are united in a hidden and real way to Christ in his Passion and glorification."220 This is especially true of Baptism, which unites us to Christ’s death and Resurrection, and the Eucharist, by which "really sharing in the body of the Lord, . . . we are taken up into communion with him and with one another."221

The fruits of Holy Communion

1391 Holy Communion augments our union with Christ. The principal fruit of receiving the Eucharist in Holy Communion is an intimate union with Christ Jesus. Indeed, the Lord said: "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him."226 Life in Christ has its foundation in the Eucharistic banquet: "As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me."227

On the feasts of the Lord, when the faithful receive the Body of the Son, they proclaim to one another the Good News that the first fruits of life have been given, as when the angel said to Mary Magdalene, "Christ is risen!" Now too are life and resurrection conferred on whoever receives Christ.228

1392 What material food produces in our bodily life, Holy Communion wonderfully achieves in our spiritual life. Communion with the flesh of the risen Christ, a flesh "given life and giving life through the Holy Spirit,"229 preserves, increases, and renews the life of grace received at Baptism. This growth in Christian life needs the nourishment of Eucharistic Communion, the bread for our pilgrimage until the moment of death, when it will be given to us as viaticum.
<…>

1396 **The unity of the Mystical Body: the Eucharist makes the Church. Those who receive the Eucharist are united more closely to Christ. Through it Christ unites them to all the faithful in one body - the Church. Communion renews, strengthens, and deepens this incorporation into the Church, already achieved by Baptism. In Baptism we have been called to form but one body.233 The Eucharist fulfills this call: “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread:”**234

 

[jmcrae]

I just looked up the word church in my Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words. What I found is not unrelated to our topic.

The Greek term most often associated with the word church—the word used by Jesus in Matthew 18:17—has two definitions.

One definition is "the whole company of the redeemed, described as “the Church which is His Body” in Ephesians 1:22-23.

The second definition is “a company consisting of professed believers.” (Sounds the same as the first one to me.)

“Believers” in what, though? If I call my car “Jesus,” and then worship it as a god, I can say with all sincerity that I am a worshipper of Jesus - but am I actually a member of His Church, or do I just think I am?

What about lesser heresies? How much heresy can be permitted? At what point is the god you call “Jesus” not the same Jesus who died on the Cross, rose from the dead, and established the Church?

Just food for thought - there are many Protestants who would insist that other Protestants are “not really Christians” because of their obvious heresies (if you click the link, take this guy with an appropriate dose of salt - he’s pretty funny, though) - what they fail to realize is that their own heresies, though different, are equally obvious.

 

[jmcrae]

You say the bread becomes the body of Christ. I say God’s people become the body of Christ. That means PR, jm, Linda Marie, labbrios, me, and all Protestants who have bowed their knee (their lives) to the Holy One of Israel! We’re all in the family! :grouphug:

1. That the bread is truly the Body of Christ is how those who consume it become the Body of Christ.
2. Do you, in fact, bend the knee? (If so, where and when?) I bend my knee (genuflect) towards the Tabernacle every time I go into or out of a Catholic Church, and every time I hear the words of the Consecration.

 

[rom422]

Yes, indeed, the Church is the Body of Christ. That doesn’t mean that the Eucharist isn’t. While we are mystically the Body of Christ, the Eucharist is literally the Body and Blood of Christ.

Very well said!

 

[rom422]

I understand Jesus’ flesh and blood to be his eternal life. We must receive it into our hearts and continually draw it from him as he draws life from the Father.

Is that the way you understand it?

No, Christ’s flesh and blood is NOT the same thing as His eternal life. Christ, being the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, has eternal life even before the Incarnation. But He has flesh and blood only after the Incarnation. Therefore, they are not the same.

HOWEVER, although Christ’s flesh and blood is not the same thing as eternal life, it is by eating His flesh and drinking His blood that we draw eternal life from Him (See John 6:53-57).

 

[David89]

I think these definitions support the evangelical view (which of course is the right one ) that the church is made up of all born-again believers (followers of Jesus, Christians, those who have Jesus living in their hearts). I believe from what the Bible says, as well as my experience, that the Church is scattered among many denominations and movements.

Hello again Cal

I have a question to your theology on the Church being made of all believers, all denominations and movements. Regarding Matthew 18:15-17

But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.

And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Matthew 18:-15-17

Lets say me and you have a disagreement about what Jesus was talking about when he said if we eat his body we will have eternal life

So after we discuss this with some of our brothers and find no solution, we decide to go to the Church as commanded by Jesus, and ask them “what did Jesus mean when he told us to eat his body?”

Keeping in mind 1 Tim 3:15 “But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.”

According to your theology you could go to any denomination to find the truth about what Jesus meant when he said eat my body. Well lets see what happens when we do this.

The High-Anglican Church will tell us that “Christ in the eucharist makes himself present sacramentally and truly when under the species of bread and wine these earthy realities are changed into the reality of his body and blood”

The Low-Anglican Church like the Presbyterians will tell us that “we do not eat the actual body blood soul and dvinity of Christ, but we eat Christs body and blood in a heavenly and spiritual manner”

The Baptists and many Evangelical Protestants would tell us something on the lines of “There is no communion, no body or blood in bread and wine, but a remembrance of Christ’s atonement, and a time of renewal of personal commitment.” ie no body or spirit. And also not often the focus of Church.

The Lutherans would say that “the Catholic doctrine of ‘Transubstantiation’ is wrong, but that the doctrine of ‘Sacramental Union’ is correct meaning rather than the bread and wine becoming body and blood, the bread and wine exists with/at the same time as the body and blood of Christ”

My question to you is How do you reconcile such reasoning that all born-again believers are THE church with Matthew 18:15-17 and 1 Tim 3:15 ?

Im sure you believe that there can only be one truth. So does it not make sense that only one can be right, and that one is right? Also who do we believe? After all Jesus commands us to go the Church when we have a disagreement.

If this is the case either Jesus told us to do something that wont lead us into truth (which would be unbiblical) or your interpretation is wrong, and Jesus is telling us there is one Church with one Truth. To me there was only one Church Jesus founded on Peter, preaching the one same doctrine for 2000 years, the Catholic Church. I would love to know your views on this

God Bless