SPLIT: The Eucharist in Scripture and Catholic teaching.

[jmcrae]

adrift;9289610:

Let me put it this way. Which is more real, a love one whose picture you have or the love one present with you.
That is the difference in your question. You seem to think that having Jesus in your heart is more real than Having His Body and Blood nourish you. Please don’t take offense at my being so blunt but having Jesus in your heart kinda sounds like an over used clique that has no true meaning.

Hi adrift.

Your bluntness doesn’t bother me a bit. I like it when people are straight with me.

Before I comment on your comment, is it okay if I ask you a personal question? Do you have Jesus living in your heart all the time? In other words, do you have the Holy Spirit living in you? Have you made Jesus your Lord? Have you committed your life to him so that you have a confidence in your heart that you are his child (Romans 8:16)?

I just want to make sure I understand you.

God bless you. Have a great day!

As he pointed out above, it is a meaningless question.

By way of analogy, since the Church is the Bride, and Jesus is the Husband -

A girl (the potential Bride) can have the warm fuzzies about the boy across the road (the Husband) all she wants, but if she never speaks to him in person, there is no “personal relationship” there, no matter how gooey her feelings may happen to be.

If she never kisses him on his actual lips or holds him in her actual arms (ie: the potential Christian never partakes of the Eucharist), but only does so in her heart, she will never actually marry him. She could love him forever, but he would never even come to know her name.

The physical relationship between the Bride and the Husband is what makes the spiritual relationship become fully realized.

 

[adrift]

adrift;9289610:

Let me put it this way. Which is more real, a love one whose picture you have or the love one present with you.
That is the difference in your question. You seem to think that having Jesus in your heart is more real than Having His Body and Blood nourish you. Please don’t take offense at my being so blunt but having Jesus in your heart kinda sounds like an over used clique that has no true meaning.

Hi adrift.

I did answer this question perhaps you missed it.

It is this and more. I don’t make Jesus Lord, He is Lord.
Definition Lord = God.

The heart is just an organ which pumps my blood through my body. I became a child of God at my baptism. He has adopted me and I try to do His will always. Romans 8:15.

 

[adrift]

Hi adrift.

Your bluntness doesn’t bother me a bit. I like it when people are straight with me.

Before I comment on your comment, is it okay if I ask you a personal question? Do you have Jesus living in your heart all the time? In other words, do you have the Holy Spirit living in you? Have you made Jesus your Lord? Have you committed your life to him so that you have a confidence in your heart that you are his child (Romans 8:16)?

I just want to make sure I understand you.

God bless you. Have a great day!

I did answer this question perhaps you missed it.

It is this and more. I don’t make Jesus Lord, He is Lord.
Definition Lord = God.

The heart is just an organ which pumps my blood through my body. I became a child of God at my baptism. He has adopted me and I try to do His will always. Romans 8:15.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Maybe I should put on a thicker skin. I don’t think you were insulting. It just hit me wrong. You might have said I have been using the word to mean the whole ritual, including the priest’s consecration of the bread and wine, and his giving to each person some of the consecrated bread and wine.
I agree that you do not want to leave the wrong impression. Saying the accidents wouldn’t be insulting. I appreciate your kind response.

Yes the Body that went through a locked door.

I did not mean to insult you. I didn’t mean agnostic but gnostic. And only in the sense that there was secrect knowledge revealed to the elect. That is what struck me and I do not intend or mean to insult you. I am sorry

It is this and more. I don’t make Jesus Lord, He is Lord.
Definition Lord = God.

You too
God Bless You.

Hi Adrift,

Thank you back for your nice response.
I’m glad you have made Jesus your Lord (God).

Now, getting back to the body of our Lord in the Eucharist. You said it is the same body that Thomas felt and that went through the locked door. Since there are many Eucharists (I’m referring to the whole ceremony) going on around the world at the same time, I assume you also believe that Jesus’ body can be in two places at once. I guess I believe that, too.
I also assume you believe Jesus’ body can change appearance. I believe that, too.

So . . . where am I going with this? I’m not sure.

OK, here’s the question I want to ask (I also asked this of my friend, jmcrea): How does partaking in the Eucharist help you to become more like Jesus or help you attract others to Jesus or help you bring glory to God? In general, how does it improve your life? Why would you recommend it to others?

As a Protestant, the Eucharist (the whole ceremony) (Communion) helps remind me that I should never forget why I have been accepted by God and why He is living in me—it’s because he gave up His body to his enemies on my behalf and shed his blood and died as my substitute. In other words, I could never have earned his salvation. Rather, acceptance by God and union with Him came through his grace and mercy. And I connected into these benefits of His Son’s sacrifice by entrusting my life to his direction.

How does that line up with your faith? I believe you are my sister in the Lord.

God bless your day. He is so good!

P.S. Where do you live? (Knowing where people live is not only interesting, it puts a face, so to speak, on them.)

 

[PRmerger]

OK, here’s the question I want to ask (I also asked this of my friend, jmcrea): How does partaking in the Eucharist help you to become more like Jesus or help you attract others to Jesus or help you bring glory to God? In general, how does it improve your life? Why would you recommend it to others?

I think the same question could be asked of the other one flesh union (i.e. the marital embrace), the one that is merely an icon or only points to the divine One Flesh Union (the Eucharist).

(NB: many may find the analog of the Eucharist to the marital embrace to be discomfiting, but I am only echoing the teachings of Pope JPII, who echoes the teachings of the ECFs, who echo the teachings of the Apostles)

So, what would you answer to someone who asks, “How does the marital embrace improve your life? Would you recommend it to others?”

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Helen & I will be vacationing soon so there might be a delay in the arrival of my next response—as if that was anything new, ha, ha.

WELCOME BACK PR!

The following is off-topic but a news headline came my way the other day that said, “43 Catholic Groups File Suit Against Obamacare.”
Now there is something we can agree on—we don’t like Obamacare.

 

[PRmerger]

Helen & I will be vacationing soon so there might be a delay in the arrival of my next response—as if that was anything new, ha, ha.

WELCOME BACK PR!

Thanks, friend, but I think you are a page late. I came back way back here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9295223&postcount=479

The following is off-topic but a news headline came my way the other day that said, “43 Catholic Groups File Suit Against Obamacare.”
Now there is something we can agree on—we don’t like Obamacare.

 

[adrift]

Hi Adrift,

Thank you back for your nice response.
I’m glad you have made Jesus your Lord (God).

Now, getting back to the body of our Lord in the Eucharist. You said it is the same body that Thomas felt and that went through the locked door. Since there are many Eucharists (I’m referring to the whole ceremony) going on around the world at the same time, I assume you also believe that Jesus’ body can be in two places at once. I guess I believe that, too.
I also assume you believe Jesus’ body can change appearance. I believe that, too.

So . . . where am I going with this? I’m not sure.

Clarification perhaps? I find it very interesting that the miracle of the loaves is followed by the discourse on Jesus saying that we were to eat His Body and Blood in order to have eternal life. I don’t think it the placement of these two events was an accident but was Jesus way to point out that it would not be impossible for Him to be in two places or for bread and wine to be His true Body and Blood.

OK, here’s the question I want to ask (I also asked this of my friend, jmcrea): How does partaking in the Eucharist help you to become more like Jesus or help you attract others to Jesus or help you bring glory to God? In general, how does it improve your life? Why would you recommend it to others?

I don’t have enough words to answer this question. To give a very simple and understated response. First it reminds me of the great sacrifice Jesus gave us 'Do this in memory of Me". It makes me aware of my imperfections but also gives me the graces to over come those things that might separate me from God. It helps me to achieve the perfection that Jesus requires of us. For a short period of time my God is literally with me.

As a Protestant, the Eucharist (the whole ceremony) (Communion) helps remind me that I should never forget why I have been accepted by God and why He is living in me—it’s because he gave up His body to his enemies on my behalf and shed his blood and died as my substitute. In other words, I could never have earned his salvation. Rather, acceptance by God and union with Him came through his grace and mercy. And I connected into these benefits of His Son’s sacrifice by entrusting my life to his direction.

How does that line up with your faith? I believe you are my sister in the Lord.

God bless your day. He is so good!

P.S. Where do you live? (Knowing where people live is not only interesting, it puts a face, so to speak, on them.)

I am careful not to reveal to much of myself on the internet. I don’t think it would hurt to tell you I live in the mountains of Colorado.

Hope you have a very nice vacation.

 

[Linda_Marie]

I don’t think I’ll be participating in this thread for a while. See over in Prayer Intentions, forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=680920 , my eldest son has just been diagnosed with stage 4 cancer which has spread to the lymph nodes.The specialists are giving him false hope and convinced him to undergo chemo so he is going to spend the next several months very very sick. But it won’t help. He has less than a year. On top of that, his wife has finally fallen pregnant after trying for the last 3 to 4 years. The baby is due in November.

 

[Alex27]

im so sorry ill be in prayer for him and your family
P.s. never give up hope because miracles do happen. if the Lord does decide to take him soon then at least it will end his suffering and he will have a much better place to look forward too

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

I don’t think I’ll be participating in this thread for a while. See over in Prayer Intentions, forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=680920 , my eldest son has just been diagnosed with stage 4 cancer which has spread to the lymph nodes.The specialists are giving him false hope and convinced him to undergo chemo so he is going to spend the next several months very very sick. But it won’t help. He has less than a year. On top of that, his wife has finally fallen pregnant after trying for the last 3 to 4 years. The baby is due in November.

Linda, I am also sorry to hear about your son’s diagnosis. And I will put him and you on my prayer list. I’ll also second everything Alex said. I believe Jesus provided healing for us on the cross just as much as he provided every other aspect of salvation (Isaiah 53:5; Matthew 8:17; 1 Peter 2:24; Psalms 91:3-6; Proverbs 4:20-22).

As you may know, some receive instantaneous healing at healing crusades such as those held by the Catholic minister Francis MacNutt, others receive it by following the instructions of Proverbs 4:20-22, especially meditating on healing verses in the Bible which build up one’s faith to receive healing according to the principle in Mark 11:22-25.

I hope your son knows the Lord. That’s the main thing. If he doesn’t, I’ll pray for his salvation.

Take care,

Cal

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

“Ante” means “before” . . . .

Thanks.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

The body and the spirit are inseparable. You cannot have Jesus’ spirit without His body, any more than you could have your own spirit without your body. Without the spirit, the body is dead, but we know that Christ is alive, being risen from the dead.

I agree with that. . . . but . . .
by spirit do you mean the Holy Spirit, the Spirit that lives in you and me?

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

In answer to my question, “If you don’t feel anything during the Mass, couldn’t you be imagining something that isn’t real?” jmcrae said,

No more than I am imagining my bank balance when I do my monthly bills. I can feel awful, I can feel great, or I can feel nothing at all, but my feelings have no effect on the reality of my bank balance.

Jesus in the Eucharist is as real as that - or even more so, since my bank balance changes according to how much I work and how much I spend, but Jesus is constant - and how I feel has nothing to do with His reality. It’s awesome to think about, because it doesn’t depend on me - it’s way bigger than I am, and something I am part of, simply by being present and receiving Him into my body.

Your analogy is good.
When I participate in what we call Communion, I remember Jesus’ death for me (according to 1 Corinthians 11:24-26) and I remember that if it had not been for Jesus’ sacrifice of himself as a substitute for me, I would not be in his kingdom right now. I would not be experiencing all the blessings of his presence in my life, nor would I experience them in the next life.

Do you do this, too?

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

My experience of Jesus in the Eucharist is definitely life-changing.

I don’t understand why you believe or assume that one has to have a weepy hysterical emotional reaction, in order for it to be life-changing experience.

I didn’t mean to suggest all that, but HOW is it life-changing? Can you be more specific or descriptive?

God bless you, jm.

 

[jmcrae]

I didn’t mean to suggest all that, but HOW is it life-changing? Can you be more specific or descriptive?

God bless you, jm.

In that I see the world in a completely different way. Instead of merely remembering Jesus as a distant figure of far away and long ago, I enter into the experience of being alive with Him in a total embrace. It completely changes my day. I am more focused on participating in the Divine Will, and offering up whatever small sufferings I might experience on to the Cross for Him to use them to redeem sinners. I orient my work towards ensuring that my focus and my priorities are aligned with the Divine Will, rather than my own ego, or anyone else’s ego. It’s all-encompassing. It’s not any one thing that someone could point to and say “This is different.” Everything is exactly the same, except that now, I perceive it as meaningful and orderly, whereas before, I perceived it as chaotic.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

In that I see the world in a completely different way. Instead of merely remembering Jesus as a distant figure of far away and long ago, I enter into the experience of being alive with Him in a total embrace. It completely changes my day. I am more focused on participating in the Divine Will, and offering up whatever small sufferings I might experience on to the Cross for Him to use them to redeem sinners. I orient my work towards ensuring that my focus and my priorities are aligned with the Divine Will, rather than my own ego, or anyone else’s ego. It’s all-encompassing. It’s not any one thing that someone could point to and say “This is different.” Everything is exactly the same, except that now, I perceive it as meaningful and orderly, whereas before, I perceived it as chaotic.

Fantastic. I’m satisfied with that answer.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Hiya, Cal!

If you’re a married man you might understand this analogy. Perhaps your marriage is “awesome” (and I hope it is!). But I’m quite certain that you don’t feel that way every single moment you look at your wife.

In my case, my marriage is indeed awesome. But sometimes when I go downstairs in the morning and I see my husband reading the paper, the first thought I have isn’t, “Oh my GOODNESS! Being married to him is the most AWESOME thing in the world!” it’s more like, “Where’s the coffee??”

That feeling (or lack thereof) that is attached to the moment does not diminish the fact that it is indeed an AWESOME sacrament we have.

Feelings do not a sacrament make.

Good analogy.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

This is indeed wonderful.

Going with the analogy I provided earlier…my husband is always with me in spirit. But I would never replace this with actually being physically present with him.

That’s what Catholics have. We have Jesus, like you do, “always with us in spirit”, but also physically present, body, blood, soul and divinity.

And who wouldn’t rather have your Beloved present with you physically, rather than just spiritually?

The unbelieving teachers of the law who persecuted and eventually crucified Jesus had Jesus with them physically—body, blood, soul, and divinity—but it didn’t do them one bit of good.
I hope there aren’t Catholics who partake of the Eucharist but who do not have his Spirit living in them. Do you think there are some?

Cal, I must caution you: DO NOT DO THIS. You may not “partake” of the “bread and wine” in a Catholic Mass. That is a lie and may have grave consequences for you.

When you come and receive communion you are speaking with your body that you are in UNION with the Catholic Church. You are stating that you believe all that Christ and His Church has proclaimed in the Catholic Church.

And at this point, that is not true. Thus, what you speak with your actions in receiving the Eucharist is at great conflict with what you profess here.

I repeat, Cal, you cannot and ought not and should not “partake” of the Eucharist at the Catholic Mass.

As you know, “Catholic” means “universal.” I am a part of the church universal.

Be good.

 

[Cal_Fullerton]

Hi Carl,
Sorry for the delay in responding, I just noticed your question this morning. The Ante-Nicene Chruch refers to the writings of the early church fathers (ECF’s) prior to the council of Nicea, approx. 325. Some would argue that they are more closely related to Protestants because of their divergent views on different topics and doctrines. Even Pope Benedict in one of his books has stated that the ECF’s are not Roman Catholic or Protestant, but Catholic, ie univiersal, believers in Christ.

When I have looked into the Ante-Nicene ECF’s I have not found unequivocal teachings about many Roman Catholic beliefs such as the papacy, priesthood, Mass as propitiatory, Marian dogma’s, the Real Presence as the physical presence of Christ in the Eucharist. As time went on, especially after Constantine declared Christianity the religion of the empire, things began to develop quickly. Shortly after Nicea, the Mass began to take on the propitiatory nature in some parts of the Chruch, and not others. The Priesthood as a distinct office and function from the the priesthood of believers began to develop, especially w/Cyprian. These are just a few examples.

If you have any more questions I will try my best to answer. Blessings

Thank you for that. You sound quite knowledgeable.