SPLIT: The issue with using Universalis

[TheMc]

Can you explain more about the problems with universalis?

I have it and I don’t want to be ignorant.

The issue is the translation. Even in the first words (God, Come to my aid), it is clear that a different translation is used than should be used (The correct text would be “God, come to my assistance”).

The reason behind this is really quite simple: If everyone used or even created their own translation, it would be chaos. Therefore, the church in her wisdom has said that translations of liturgical texts (with a few rare exceptions) must be approved, or they may not be used. Of course, with laity praying the liturgy of the hours, there’s not a practical way to stop them, but try thinking of it this way if you’re still not convinced:

When you pray the real (not universalis) LOTH, you are praying the prayer of the church with the entire church. When you use other translations, or make modifications to the prayers, you are praying your own personal prayers. Not that praying on your own is a bad thing, but if you have the choice, why wouldn’t you pray with the church?

I hope this helps.

 

[edward_george]

This is somewhat of a concern, but only for those who are canonically bound to pray the Divine Office. If you are not clergy or a vowed religious, praying the Divine Office is a private devotion. It’s not some magical formula to where if you’re not using the “correct” translation that you’re no longer praying with the Church, praying with the Church comes from your intention to do so. Besides, some religious communities have the authorization to make use of their own format of the Divine Office; the monastery which founded my undergraduate college had their own translation and their own format for the hours, according to the needs of the community. I visited another monastery where this was also the case.

-ACEGC

 

[the_phoenix]

Hi TheMC,

Is there a different Liturgy of the Hours website
that you would recommend?
I’d welcome one with better wording!

 

[kmuestwin]

Does the problem come from the bible translation?

Here’s what I found on the universalis website:

What translations are you using?
The Mass readings, and the Scripture readings in the Liturgy of the Hours, are from the Jerusalem Bible. The Jerusalem Bible is authorised for liturgical use at Mass in the United Kingdom and in several other parts of the English-speaking world. (By the way, if you are thinking of buying a bible, you should be aware that the New Jerusalem Bible is different from the Jerusalem Bible).

In the downloadable versions of Universalis (including the iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch version), the Mass readings (and only the Mass readings) are also available in the New American Bible version, which is authorised for liturgical use in the United States. This version cannot be displayed on the Web for copyright reasons.

There are two versions of the psalms and antiphons in the Liturgy of the Hours available in Universalis. The Grail translation of the psalms is used liturgically throughout the English-speaking world, but its owners do not allow anyone to reproduce it on the World Wide Web. Accordingly, there is also our own specially-commissioned translation, which is used on our Web pages. The downloadable versions of Universalis include both translations and you can switch between them.

The translations of the non-biblical readings of the Office of Readings are from various sources.

From here

What is the correct name of the correct translation?

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Hi TheMC,

Is there a different Liturgy of the Hours website
that you would recommend?
I’d welcome one with better wording!

www.divineoffice.org

 

[JGMendes4049]

Hi TheMc,

Is there a different Liturgy of the Hours website
that you would recommend?
I’d welcome one with better wording!

This.

 

[OraLabora]

This is somewhat of a concern, but only for those who are canonically bound to pray the Divine Office. If you are not clergy or a vowed religious, praying the Divine Office is a private devotion.

Not so. The Liturgy of the Hours is the public prayer of the Church. The laity are allowed to participate in it and are encouraged to pray it either communally or privately. It is only a private devotion if using an unapproved form or translation. If are using an approved version then you’re adding your voice to the Body of Christ pray for and with the Church, as part of a liturgical act.

Weekday Mass is also not binding on the laity but by participating in weekly Mass the laity are most certainly participating in the liturgy and are most certainly encouraged to do so. The same goes for the LOTH:

1. Lay groups gathering for prayer, apostolic work, or any other reason are encouraged to fulfill the Church’s duty, [103] by celebrating part of the liturgy of the hours. The laity must learn above all how in the liturgy they are adoring God the Father in spirit and in truth; [104] they should bear in mind that through public worship and prayer they reach all humanity and can contribute significantly to the salvation of the whole world. [105]

Finally, it is of great advantage for the family, the domestic sanctuary of the Church, not only to pray together to God but also to celebrate some parts of the liturgy of the hours as occasion offers, in order to enter more deeply into the life of the Church. [106]

and

1. Other religious communities and their individual members are advised to celebrate some parts of the liturgy of the hours, in accordance with their own situation, for it is the prayer of the Church and makes the whole Church, scattered throughout the world, one in heart and mind. [119] This recommendation applies also to laypersons. [120]

From the General Instructions of the Liturgy of the Hours (my bold)

 

[the_phoenix]

Thanks, SuscipeMeDomine and JGMendes4049!

I’ve bookmarked the site.

 

[GelasianumVetus]

To insist on the value of such uniformity, is, I think, a bit misguided.

First off, if the corporate value of this practice is based on uniformity, all those using the same translation are only praying together with those of their same country or language group, and not with the whole Church.

Secondly, what of those of differing rites and usages, who use different words? Are they not sharing in the prayer of the Church? Do religious orders who have their own translation of the Office not share in the fullness of the Church’s prayer? Do Byzantines, who pray a fairly different system, not participate in the great prayer of the Church?

Outside of a public liturgical setting, what is important is the intention of praying with the Church, not the exact wording, unless the translation will confuse one when praying in a public liturgical setting.

 

[TheMc]

To insist on the value of such uniformity, is, I think, a bit misguided.

First off, if the corporate value of this practice is based on uniformity, all those using the same translation are only praying together with those of their same country or language group, and not with the whole Church.

Secondly, what of those of differing rites and usages, who use different words? Are they not sharing in the prayer of the Church? Do religious orders who have their own translation of the Office not share in the fullness of the Church’s prayer? Do Byzantines, who pray a fairly different system, not participate in the great prayer of the Church?

Outside of a public liturgical setting, what is important is the intention of praying with the Church, not the exact wording, unless the translation will confuse one when praying in a public liturgical setting.

Yes, you can use it, but to be honest, why would you? There are other options that do exactly the same thing for free.

 

[TheMc]

Secondly, what of those of differing rites and usages, who use different words? Are they not sharing in the prayer of the Church? Do religious orders who have their own translation of the Office not share in the fullness of the Church’s prayer? Do Byzantines, who pray a fairly different system, not participate in the great prayer of the Church?

But those are other legimate, approved versions that unite one with the prayer of the church. Making up your own does not.

 

[OraLabora]

But those are other legimate, approved versions that unite one with the prayer of the church. Making up your own does not.

Moreover, the collects, hymns and intercessions are the same unless praying the propers of a saint on the community’s approved calendar.

The thing about the LOTH: “it’s not all about me”. It’s about community. It’s about praying a psalm of sorrow when you’re joyful, in solidarity with those in difficulty. It’s not primarily about one’s personal choice. I for instance pray the Office (approved) of the abbey I am affiliated with even though there are some things about it that I don’t like.

 

[Russ_of_Tokyo]

As far as I can tell, the Psalms in Universalis are the same as the Liturgy of the Hours books. And the Psalms make up the bulk of the LOTH. The extra-biblical readings in the Office of Readings are also the same from what I have seen.

I use the books at home when I’m praying Morning Prayer and Night Prayer, but I’m not home during the day. I have a Kindle with me all day, and Universalis is the only version I can carry around with me on the Kindle for the Office of Readings, Daytime Prayers and Evening Prayer. If the “official” Liturgy were available on the Kindle, I would use it, because I like the idea of using the same version that is in my books. Apparently I have no other options outside of Universalis for Kindle.

I pray the Liturgy of the hours in English, the language of my heart. But I live in a country where English is not the official translation of the LOTH. From what I have read on these forums, that already disqualifies me from saying I am praying the real LOTH “with the Church” (even if I use the 4 volume book set) so I must settle for calling it private devotions. That is fine with me.

The meaning of the prayers are the same if not worded exactly the same, and I’m sure that God hears them just fine, and answers them just fine, as He hears and answers prayers offered in all the languages of the world whether they are official translations or not.

Since I am already “out of the loop” for using an English translation in Japan, this is just to satisfy my curiosity: what is to be gained by praying the officially approved English wording in private devotions (and not in a group)? Other than not being able to “wear the T-shirt”, why should one lament the fact that one is not able to pray the Liturgy with the locally approved translation?

 

[agnes_therese]

Secondly, what of those of differing rites and usages, who use different words? Are they not sharing in the prayer of the Church? Do religious orders who have their own translation of the Office not share in the fullness of the Church’s prayer? Do Byzantines, who pray a fairly different system, not participate in the great prayer of the Church?

No one said any such thing. Those are approved, as I’m sure you already know. And that is the difference.

 

[TheMc]

As far as I can tell, the Psalms in Universalis are the same as the Liturgy of the Hours books. And the Psalms make up the bulk of the LOTH. The extra-biblical readings in the Office of Readings are also the same from what I have seen.

I use the books at home when I’m praying Morning Prayer and Night Prayer, but I’m not home during the day. I have a Kindle with me all day, and Universalis is the only version I can carry around with me on the Kindle for the Office of Readings, Daytime Prayers and Evening Prayer. If the “official” Liturgy were available on the Kindle, I would use it, because I like the idea of using the same version that is in my books. Apparently I have no other options outside of Universalis for Kindle.

I pray the Liturgy of the hours in English, the language of my heart. But I live in a country where English is not the official translation of the LOTH. From what I have read on these forums, that already disqualifies me from saying I am praying the real LOTH “with the Church” (even if I use the 4 volume book set) so I must settle for calling it private devotions. That is fine with me.

The meaning of the prayers are the same if not worded exactly the same, and I’m sure that God hears them just fine, and answers them just fine, as He hears and answers prayers offered in all the languages of the world whether they are official translations or not.

Since I am already “out of the loop” for using an English translation in Japan, this is just to satisfy my curiosity: what is to be gained by praying the officially approved English wording in private devotions (and not in a group)? Other than not being able to “wear the T-shirt”, why should one lament the fact that one is not able to pray the Liturgy with the locally approved translation?

Can’t kindles browse the web?

ibreviary.com/m/

 

[Russ_of_Tokyo]

Can’t kindles browse the web?

I can establish a WIFI connection for my Kindle at home (of course, I also have the 4 volume set at home!) and I’ve tried to get both ibreviary and divineoffice.org by browsing the web just to see if it can be done. After a VERY long wait, I discovered it wasn’t successful. Besides, when I am outside the home, I am not in the vicinity of a WIFI hub (or whatever they are called). So practically speaking, my Kindle does not do the internet. Universalis lets me download via my computer and carry in my Kindle an entire year (or more) of the Divine Office (or whatever one wishes to call their version of it).

I wish the other web sites had this service. But then again, it would only bring me in line with my books, and not the local Church who prays the hours in Japanese.

Speaking of which, I just got home from attending Morning Prayer and Mass at a local Church (in Japanese, of course). My schedule usually allows me to attend once a week, on Wednesday mornings. So at least once a week I’m praying “with the Church” but the non-English words don’t penetrate as deeply and it is more difficult to make them my own prayer. That’s my own problem and I understand if others can’t identify with it, but it does draw attention to the fact that the Liturgy of the Hours is offered around the world in many cultures and in many translations. And lots of folks in the international community will prefer praying in their own tongue during private devotions – officially approved or not.

I’ve asked several foreign (English speaking) priests in Tokyo about this, and whether any of the English translations out there are approved for use in Japan so I could be “praying with the Church”, but the issue was not even on their radar. One told me he prayed the hours in English during those times when he was not praying in a group and didn’t understand all the fuss.

 

[JGMendes4049]

I can establish a WIFI connection for my Kindle at home (of course, I also have the 4 volume set at home!) and I’ve tried to get both ibreviary and divineoffice.org by browsing the web just to see if it can be done. After a VERY long wait, I discovered it wasn’t successful. Besides, when I am outside the home, I am not in the vicinity of a WIFI hub (or whatever they are called). So practically speaking, my Kindle does not do the internet. Universalis lets me download via my computer and carry in my Kindle an entire year (or more) of the Divine Office (or whatever one wishes to call their version of it).

I wish the other web sites had this service. But then again, it would only bring me in line with my books, and not the local Church who prays the hours in Japanese.

Speaking of which, I just got home from attending Morning Prayer and Mass at a local Church (in Japanese, of course). My schedule usually allows me to attend once a week, on Wednesday mornings. So at least once a week I’m praying “with the Church” but the non-English words don’t penetrate as deeply and it is more difficult to make them my own prayer. That’s my own problem and I understand if others can’t identify with it, but it does draw attention to the fact that the Liturgy of the Hours is offered around the world in many cultures and in many translations. And lots of folks in the international community will prefer praying in their own tongue during private devotions – officially approved or not.

I’ve asked several foreign (English speaking) priests in Tokyo about this, and whether any of the English translations out there are approved for use in Japan so I could be “praying with the Church”, but the issue was not even on their radar. One told me he prayed the hours in English during those times when he was not praying in a group and didn’t understand all the fuss.

Would this work?

 

[Russ_of_Tokyo]

Thanks for the link, Joseph. I think that book is about the Divine Office and not the Divine Office itself. Maybe someday we will see such a Kindle book on Amazon. Let’s hope. And hope it’s done right.

I have discovered that it is possible to copy and paste the contents of the various parts of the Divine Office each day for either divineoffice.org or iBreviary and convert them to plain text for the Kindle. It requires a little planning and work each day, but it can be done. BTW iBreviary makes a slightly nicer plain text file than divineoffice.org, at least via my computer.

If there is a compelling reason to do that rather than use the Universalis readings already on my Kindle (and which are formatted much nicer than plain text) I can do that for my private devotions when on the road. Of course, I’m still “out of the loop” since the local Church does not use an English translation of the Divine Office.

So … somebody give me a compelling reason.

 

[Russ_of_Tokyo]

Nobody has posted for two days since I asked for a compelling reason to make the extra effort to use something other than Universalis for Kindle. I hope I didn’t kill this lively discussion, because it has been very informative!

Universalis is currently the only form of the LOTH that has removed the obstacles for Kindle users, and I appreciate that. So I will continue to use their program until somebody else comes out with something better for the Kindle, that conforms more closely to one of the approved English translations.

 

[Russ_of_Tokyo]

I just bought the Japanese version of the Liturgy of the Hours in hopes of “praying with the Church” with the locally approved version at least at those times when I am home and can pray with a book. It is going to be a real challenge. But I love Christ and His Body in Japan and I want to pray with that body in the same language whenever I can.

Anyway, I made a few discoveries about this book.

First, there is apparently no multi-volume set in Japanese, but only one fat book similar in size to the one volume Christian Prayer. It has the Morning, Daytime, Evening and Night Prayers plus some music in the back. It also has the Office of Readings, but only gives the Bible reference for those readings instead of the actual Bible text, and apparently omits the readings from extra biblical sources. So all in all it apparently resembles Christian Prayer in many ways, even in size.

The same Psalms are read on the same days and hours as the English versions, but I was surprised to find that the antiphons and other prayers are completely different from the English versions! So apparently the only prayers that the entire world prays together are the Psalms themselves – plus the parts that are repeated daily such as the Lord’s Prayer and Magnificat, etc.

It’s still great to know that these parts are prayed by all Christians everywhere, but I can’t help but point out that if the Psalms and daily repeated parts are the only universally uniting factor – the heart of the Liturgy of the Hours – well, the wording of these in the current version of Universalis is exactly the same as the official English versions of the Liturgy of the Hours. So it would seem that one need not panic or feel like an outcast when using Universalis in private prayer. The core parts that everyone prays are exactly the same.

So I’ll keep using Universalis when I’m away from home, and struggle with the Japanese or even breeze by with the English books when I’m at home. Lots of great options.