SPLIT: Those Who Leave the Catholic Faith

[mlldrl]

How is one both outside the Body of Christ and inside the Body of Christ…all at the same time?

I don’t even understand what you’re getting at. I’ve been following your posts and I can’t identify where you’re going with this. I believe your question has been answered or maybe I didn’t understand it to begin with.

 

[guanophore]

You were never taught the story of Noah or David and Goliath?
The Christmas Story or Easter through the stations? You must have went to a diff kind of Catholic Church.
I was and then I was fed lies that the RCC didn’t have all the truth.
Dessert

Yes, and I think it was the early teaching that laid the foundation which finally enabled me to return. However, I felt cheated, because I started learning Greek, and this opened up so much to me about what the scripture meant. Looking back, I think the instruction I received as a teen was "soft"in comparison to what my evangelical schoolmates were getting.

 

[Atemi]

You twisted my words here, Atemi. I thanked him for correcting me that the Body of Christ refers to both a Mystical and physical place. The Church and being in Christ. There are those OUTSIDE OF THE PHYSICAL CHURCH which can be saved.

That was not what was asked.

Please pay better attention to what questions actually say before attacking those asking them.

 

[Atemi]

I don’t even understand what you’re getting at. I’ve been following your posts and I can’t identify where you’re going with this. I believe your question has been answered or maybe I didn’t understand it to begin with.

Well thanks for attempting to answer anyway.

 

[tdgesq]

You said that one may not be in the Body of Christ (the Church) but may be in the Body of Christ.

Huh??

If there are not two Bodies of Christ, how can one be BOTH inside and outside of the Body of Christ at the same time?

Nobody seems aboe to answer this. That is troubling.

…

Atemi, do you not understand the distinction between the visible structures of an organized church and the invisible union of the community of believers in Christ that make up the church? These are not only two different aspects of what make up the Catholic Church, they are two aspects that make up every Christian church - Protestant, Evangelical or Anglican. They all have a certain form of leadership, a structured celebration, a certain church government, etc. All the Catholic Church is saying is that it is possible for a non-Catholic to be a part of the invisible community of believers (and therefore, a member of the Mystical Body of Christ) without necessarily being a member of the visible organized Catholic Church.

I did a whole post on this here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2035303&postcount=148 How much clearer can I make it? There aren’t “two Bodies of Christ.” There are two aspects, visible and nonvisible, to every Christian church. In fact, there are more aspects than that - namely - the communion of saints, the church militant, the church suffering, the church triumphant and so on. I’m glad I didn’t mention those earlier or else I guess according to you we would now have six Bodies of Christ. What’s just weird here is that many Christian religions other than the Roman Catholic Church also believe in these various aspects.

I’ve attempted to answer your questions, now it’s your turn to answer a couple of mine:

(1) What Christian denomination are you part of?

(2) Please give me your definition of the “Christian church.”

Thanks.

 

[TheApologist]

That was not what was asked.

Please pay better attention to what questions actually say before attacking those asking them.

Okay…in a very clear way…what were you asking?

Atemi, do you not understand the distinction between the visible structures of an organized church and the invisible union of the community of believers in Christ that make up the church? These are not only two different aspects of what make up the Catholic Church, they are two aspects that make up every Christian church - Protestant, Evangelical or Anglican. They all have a certain form of leadership, a structured celebration, a certain church government, etc. All the Catholic Church is saying is that it is possible for a non-Catholic to be a part of the invisible community of believers (and therefore, a member of the Mystical Body of Christ) without necessarily being a member of the visible organized Catholic Church.

I did a whole post on this here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2035303&postcount=148 How much clearer can I make it? There aren’t “two Bodies of Christ.” There are two aspects, visible and nonvisible, to every Christian church. In fact, there are more aspects than that - namely - the communion of saints, the church militant, the church suffering, the church triumphant and so on. I’m glad I didn’t mention those earlier or else I guess according to you we would now have six Bodies of Christ. What’s just weird here is that many Christian religions other than the Roman Catholic Church also believe in these various aspects.

That’s EXACTLY what I said. I hope it’s clearer this time around.

(1) What Christian denomination are you part of?

I would very much like to ask Atemi this, and what HE thinks “Body of Christ” refers to.

EDIT:
OH! Also, what do you believe “pure Christianity” is?

 

[dessert]

Yes, and I think it was the early teaching that laid the foundation which finally enabled me to return. However, I felt cheated, because I started learning Greek, and this opened up so much to me about what the scripture meant. Looking back, I think the instruction I received as a teen was "soft"in comparison to what my evangelical schoolmates were getting.

Yes I agree and maybe if we had more teaaching I wouldn’t have been deceived by Satan as well because I too felt cheated but then God gave me a will and I used it.
Looking back also I just believed Satan no matter what form he was in or who it was my rebelliion and today I can now understand what the reverts have gone through so maybe God wants me to have some compassion and learn some more too.

Satan is the father of lies and I am trying to learn the truth through the Holy Spirit in order to refute Satan.

I felt like it was a lot of years to waste but Jesus was there all the time and I didn’t really lose my faith it just waned, was I closer to Jesus then, no I don’t think so because I didn’yt have the fullness of the trinity and the Sacraments like I said before only when I started to speak the truth about my self and the teachins and putting it all together I began to understan better.

That is why I pray the ex-C’s will give it another try and visit their CC to recive maybe as now a more mature Christian as some say they are more personal with Jesus which I believe they may be that they can reaffirm their revival with the Sacraments and the Church. This is a good kind of revival. So I don’t mean to be harsh and I appoligize for coming on to strong… Dessert

 

[Atemi]

Atemi, do you not understand the distinction between the visible structures of an organized church and the invisible union of the community of believers in Christ that make up the church?

I surely do, but that is not what is in question.

You said earlier that the Church is the Body of Christ. They are synonymous according to RC teaching.

Are you now saying that the visible structure of the RCC is not the Church, though they take that name?

These are not only two different aspects of what make up the Catholic Church, they are two aspects that make up every Christian church - Protestant, Evangelical or Anglican. They all have a certain form of leadership, a structured celebration, a certain church government, etc. All the Catholic Church is saying is that it is possible for a non-Catholic to be a part of the invisible community of believers (and therefore, a member of the Mystical Body of Christ) without necessarily being a member of the visible organized Catholic Church.

So you are saying that one can be in the Body of Christ but outside of the Body of Christ at the very same time.

Please explain how this is possible.

If not, all you are doing is telling me that the visible RCC is NOT the Body of Christ and that Christ’s true church (His Body) is invisible.

This is what RC apologists attack non-Catholics for on a daily basis.

How much clearer can I make it? There aren’t “two Bodies of Christ.” There are two aspects, visible and nonvisible, to every Christian church.

That is not the complete claim of the RCC.

They say that they, visibly, are the Body of Christ.

They say that Christ left a visible Body to govern and teach.

What you are not doing is actually answering the question…though you are not doing so purposely, IMV.

In fact, there are more aspects than that - namely - the communion of saints, the church militant, the church suffering, the church triumphant and so on. I’m glad I didn’t mention those earlier or else I guess according to you we would now have six Bodies of Christ. What’s just weird here is that many Christian religions other than the Roman Catholic Church also believe in these various aspects.

NOT as taught by the RCC.

Everyone is saying here that one can be BOTH in the Body of Christ and out of it at the same time.

That is ludicrous, to put it mildly.

I’ve attempted to answer your questions, now it’s your turn to answer a couple of mine:

(1) What Christian denomination are you part of?

I am not a member of any denomination.

(2) Please give me your definition of the “Christian church.”

Christ’s Body consists of all those of His born again people everywhere, and at every time, since Pentecost.

It would be equivalent, IMO, to the novel RC “Mystical Body of Christ.”

…

 

[Mannyfit75]

Atemi,

You are a Protestant Christian.

Because you profess Faith Alone and Bible Alone.

 

[TheApologist]

I don’t really see how we can make it any more clearer. Here it is…the Mystical Body of Christ is the Catholic Church PLUS ANYONE who lives in Christ and through “no fault of their own” cannot know the Full Truth- Catholicism.

When Catholics casually use the term “Body of Christ” in conversation with other Catholics, we usually mean it to be the Catholic Church, but it is understood that there are also others within the Body of Christ who aren’t “through no fault of their own” with the physical Catholic Church.

 

[Atemi]

I don’t really see how we can make it any more clearer.

Because you cannot see the dilemma.

You admittedly didn’t and you named yourself “TheApologist.”

Here it is…the Mystical Body of Christ is the Catholic Church PLUS ANYONE who lives in Christ and through “no fault of their own” cannot know the Full Truth- Catholicism.

When Catholics casually use the term “Body of Christ” in conversation with other Catholics, we usually mean it to be the Catholic Church, but it is understood that there are also others within the Body of Christ who aren’t “through no fault of their own” with the physical Catholic Church.

This is more than an issue of casual (and thus entirely careless) usage.

This use of language goes up to the highest levels and into the Catechism itself.

As I posted before:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2033736&postcount=1

None of those quotes would make any sense, as do most of the Catholic responses to the OP in this thread.

One cannot leave the Church (by definition, the Body of Christ) and leave Jesus and leave His Bride…if they are still in His Body.

This thread reveals that most Catholics are oblivious to what the Body of Christ really is…and it is not the visible RCC even by the RCC’s own teaching.

 

[guanophore]

This use of language goes up to the highest levels and into the Catechism itself.

As I posted before:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2033736&postcount=1

One cannot leave the Church (by definition, the Body of Christ) and leave Jesus and leave His Bride…if they are still in His Body.

This thread reveals that most Catholics are oblivious to what the Body of Christ really is…and it is not the visible RCC even by the RCC’s own teaching.

So, Atemi, have you accomplished your purpose in being here? Have you successfully pointed out what most Catholics don’t know about their faith?

 

[TheApologist]

This use of language goes up to the highest levels and into the Catechism itself.

As I posted before:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2033736&postcount=1

None of those quotes would make any sense, as do most of the Catholic responses to the OP in this thread.

One cannot leave the Church (by definition, the Body of Christ) and leave Jesus and leave His Bride…if they are still in His Body.

This thread reveals that most Catholics are oblivious to what the Body of Christ really is…and it is not the visible RCC even by the RCC’s own teaching.

THAT"S IT! Mostly those who LEAVE the Catholic Church LEAVE the Body of Christ. We’re saying the Mystical Body of Christ contains those who either “through no fault of their own” don’t know the Gospel and Catholicism or are in the Catholic Church. Those that reject Catholicism and its Truth are rejecting Jesus and excommunicating themselves from the Body of Christ!

EDIT:
Sorry I didn’t make this clear: usually those that leave the Church are REJECTING it. And so they are…rejecting…etc. etc. (look above).

 

[Atemi]

THAT"S IT! Mostly those who LEAVE the Catholic Church LEAVE the Body of Christ.

Where did you get that information?

Do you have a Batphone to God Himself?

Can you please cite the paragraph in the Catechism that says this?

 

[kaycee]

THAT"S IT! Mostly those who LEAVE the Catholic Church LEAVE the Body of Christ. We’re saying the Mystical Body of Christ contains those who either “through no fault of their own” don’t know the Gospel and Catholicism or are in the Catholic Church. Those that reject Catholicism and its Truth are rejecting Jesus and excommunicating themselves from the Body of Christ!

Thats as clear as mud. We took ourselves out of the Mystical body of Christ when we left the Catholic Church? Yet JanetS claims we had a CONVERSION TO Christ outside the Catholic Church.

Not sure I buy all this unity of doctrine talk when the confusion among professed knowledgable RC’s is so prevalent.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Thats as clear as mud. We took ourselves out of the Mystical body of Christ when we left the Catholic Church? Yet JanetS claims we had a CONVERSION TO Christ outside the Catholic Church.

Not sure I buy all this unity of doctrine talk when the confusion among professed knowledgable RC’s is so prevalent.

Let me clear this up. Ex-Catholics who left the church have rejected Christ’s Truth Church, but they remain within the Body for they maintain belief of Jesus Christ as the Messiah.

If they truly reject the entire truths which the Catholic Church, they would have to remove Jesus out completely.

IMO, I do think EX-Catholics who left reject Jesus by rejecting His Church which is Catholic but they are not taken out of the Mystical Body of Christ. They remain separated brothers and sisters in Christ, as Vatican Council II states.

They not be in the Catholic Church but they are be rightly called Christians.

Let me cite the Catechism.

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

817 Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they** therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church**."272

 

[Randy_Carson]

Do you think a Protestant like me is more likely to end up in Purgatory than heaven and then have a chance to make it to heaven from there?

I think it is important to clarify that Purgatory is not a second chance.

There are only two destinations: Heaven or Hell.

If you die in a state or mortal sin, you go to hell. End of story.

If you die in a state of grace, you go to heaven or purgatory.

If you don’t need to be purified, you go directly to heaven.

If you still have a bit of “clean up” to do, you go to purgatory to be “purged” of the impurities (attachments to self, sin, etc.) before entering heaven.

Protestants are no different than Catholics in this regard…except that their family members are not praying for them.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Really?

Wow.

Did you find this out on your own? Where did you get such a huge revelation from God to know such things?

I am sorry you failed Him so and had no faith to speak of. And a life of sin too?

Maybe that is why you believed you would go to Hell.

I would not juxtapose your personal failures in faith onto others though. That is not very wise, IMV.

[SIGN]Elsewhere, Atemi has seriously asked “Where have I been uncharitable?”[/SIGN]

 

[Randy_Carson]

Don’t sweat it my friend, I knew what you were saying. Lemme know if and when you need an assist and I’ll dive right in.

CM-

I’ve heard of Bay Watch…does this make you part of “Tiber Watch”?

 

[Church_Militant]

CM-

I’ve heard of Bay Watch…does this make you part of “Tiber Watch”?

Guess it could be.

Our swimwear is more chaste and the morals are a whole lot higher. Briefings include the Rosary and the Divine Mercy Chaplet.

Somehow I don’t think it will ever get its own show.

Don’tcha think it’s “cute” how these guys want to try to portray confusion of teaching on excommunication by profession and that we are saying two different things when in fact we are simply stating what it both scriptural and true.

Fact is that Atemi (whose strikes are off target) wants to confuse people with his propaganda when there really isn’t any confusion. Anathema/excommunication does not remove one from the body of Christ unless one persists in it to death.

Am I the only one who sees here an agenda to offer nothing to a discussion or debate while using this forum as a platform to hassle Catholics with posts where he refuses to accept a straight answer?

Oh, I know, he’ll now come back and assert that we haven’t given him a straight answer, but I’ve been on this thread and many others with him and this is the typical ploy of getting someone to work real hard to explain something and then simply saying, “it is not enough”. That’s dishonest.