SPLIT: Those Who Leave the Catholic Faith

[guanophore]

THAT"S IT! Mostly those who LEAVE the Catholic Church LEAVE the Body of Christ. We’re saying the Mystical Body of Christ contains those who either “through no fault of their own” don’t know the Gospel and Catholicism or are in the Catholic Church. Those that reject Catholicism and its Truth are rejecting Jesus and excommunicating themselves from the Body of Christ!

EDIT:
Sorry I didn’t make this clear: usually those that leave the Church are REJECTING it. And so they are…rejecting…etc. etc. (look above).

It is true that Atemi did grow up in, then leave Catholicism. However, I don’ t think it can be said about her that she “knew” what it meant to be Catholic. From her posts, it seems clear that she was poorly catechized, and the basic truths either were not communicated, or not understood. If any fault exists, it may only be in the present resistance to understand and accept the teachings.

 

[guanophore]

Thats as clear as mud. We took ourselves out of the Mystical body of Christ when we left the Catholic Church? Yet JanetS claims we had a CONVERSION TO Christ outside the Catholic Church.

Not sure I buy all this unity of doctrine talk when the confusion among professed knowledgable RC’s is so prevalent.

No, you might have taken yourself out of the “visible” (organized) church by leaving. Yes, you have had conversion to Christ outside the church. Which begs the question, were you ever Catholic? Many parents baptize their children in the CAtholic Church, then fail in their obligation to raise them in the faith. If that is what happened, then you were never evangelized in the first place. You may have only practiced a form of godliness, without the power thereof. If you never understood or experienced the Real Presence, it would be hard to say you turned your back on Jesus.

 

[guanophore]

Fact is that Atemi (whose strikes are off target) wants to confuse people with his propaganda when there really isn’t any confusion. Anathema/excommunication does not remove one from the body of Christ unless one persists in it to death.

Am I the only one who sees here an agenda to offer nothing to a discussion or debate while using this forum as a platform to hassle Catholics with posts where he refuses to accept a straight answer?

Oh, I know, he’ll now come back and assert that we haven’t given him a straight answer, but I’ve been on this thread and many others with him and this is the typical ploy of getting someone to work real hard to explain something and then simply saying, “it is not enough”. That’s dishonest.

Atemi has yet to answer my query about why being here. It may be you are right, it is only to use the forum as a platform ot hassle Catholics. That certainly seems to be the initial attitude. However, I can’t help thinking it is something more. She says she is not here to grind an axe because she was wounded by the church, so there must be some other purpose.

 

[kaycee]

No, you might have taken yourself out of the “visible” (organized) church by leaving. Yes, you have had conversion to Christ outside the church. Which begs the question, were you ever Catholic? Many parents baptize their children in the CAtholic Church, then fail in their obligation to raise them in the faith. If that is what happened, then you were never evangelized in the first place. You may have only practiced a form of godliness, without the power thereof. If you never understood or experienced the Real Presence, it would be hard to say you turned your back on Jesus.

I was sent to Catholic School for 12 years and had “religion” class everyday from the sisters of notre dame. Was baptized, took communion, went to confession, never missed mass, and was confirmed. I certainly understood the teaching of the real presence. I certainly tried to the best of my ability to believe all they taught.

What do you consider Catholic evangelization?

 

[guanophore]

I was sent to Catholic School for 12 years and had “religion” class everyday from the sisters of notre dame. Was baptized, took communion, went to confession, never missed mass, and was confirmed. I certainly understood the teaching of the real presence. I certainly tried to the best of my ability to believe all they taught.

What do you consider Catholic evangelization?

I know what you experienced is considered standard Catholic evangelization. However, I think that, if young people don’t learn how to apprehend the teachings of Christ in their lives, like apply the principles of faith to daily living, it is all a waste. You are a perfect example of how a person can go to religion classes, but be starving for an inner experience of faith. Of course this diet of ritual with no empowered content is going to leave one wishing for another table. FOrtunately, you found food and have been enriched by the experience of a life powered by the Holy Spirit. The problem with this kind of catechism is that the student is left to “try to the best of my ability to believe”. It just seems too works based. Where is the grace? Where is the power for living that was promised? You know what I mean?

 

[Janet_S]

I was sent to Catholic School for 12 years and had “religion” class everyday from the sisters of notre dame. Was baptized, took communion, went to confession, never missed mass, and was confirmed. I certainly understood the teaching of the real presence. I certainly tried to the best of my ability to believe all they taught.

What do you consider Catholic evangelization?

Can I ask you a few more questions, Kaycee.

At what age did you stop going to Mass every Sunday and/or start having doubts about the CC?

Were you an atheist or agnostic for awhile?

At what age did you commit your life to Jesus Christ through the influence of a non-Catholic church or person?

What influenced you to leave the CC and join another church?

 

[kaycee]

Can I ask you a few more questions, Kaycee.

At what age did you stop going to Mass every Sunday and/or start having doubts about the CC?

27

Were you an atheist or agnostic for awhile?

No

At what age did you commit your life to Jesus Christ through the influence of a non-Catholic church or person?

27

What influenced you to leave the CC and join another church?

A partime baptist minister shared the Gospel with me.

 

[guanophore]

A part time baptist minister shared the Gospel with me.

So, what did you hear at that time that you never heard in all the years before? That will point to where the Catholic upbringing failed you.

 

[Janet_S]

27

No

27

A partime baptist minister shared the Gospel with me.

I know there are lots of people like you, Kaycee. Many of my family members have left the Church too.

Just know that if you every want to come back, we would be glad to have you.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I know there are lots of people like you, Kaycee. Many of my family members have left the Church too.

Just know that if you every want to come back, we would be glad to have you.

I pray for kaycee’s conversion to come Home. Jesus misses her in Holy Communion.

 

[tdgesq]

Let’s skip around a little bit here to clear up the apparent contradiction that you believe you’ve discovered.

Christ’s Body consists of all those of His born again people everywhere, and at every time, since Pentecost.

It would be equivalent, IMO, to the novel RC “Mystical Body of Christ.”

This demonstrates more than anything else I’ve seen you write to this point how little understanding you have of Catholic doctrine, notwithstanding your claims to be a former Catholic. Pope Boniface VIII stated the following in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam:

“The Church represents one single Mystical Body whose head is Christ.”

Any guesses when he made this pronouncement? 200 years before the Reformation. Calling the notion of the Mystical Body of Christ “novel” in the face of your “born again” definition of the church is truly ironic.

You said earlier that the Church is the Body of Christ. They are synonymous according to RC teaching.

Yes, the Church is the Body of Christ. And both of it’s aspects, the visible and nonvisible are part of this Body. What you demand though is that if one is not within the visible part, he is absolutely excluded from the entire Body of Christ. But this is clearly not valid as a matter of logic alone. One could conceivably be in the invisible and Mystical Body of Christ and not in the visible part. This person would still be within the Body of Christ, yet we would say he is not in full communion with it. Now what about the person who knowingly rejects the visible body of Christ? The consequence is that he is cut off from the entire Body of Christ - the visible and the invisible. God will not tolerate a person to knowingly reject the leadership of his Church that he established for the salvation of souls and remain within the body of Christ. This is what the Catholic Church teaches as I’ve cited you from at least three different sources. There is no logical contradiction.

By the way, even though I don’t have to resort to it here for my arguments, you are wrong that when someone makes a statment like “the Church is the Body of Christ” that both terms must have definitional identity to each other in every respect. Take any defintion of a complex institution. I could say that Proctor and Gamble is a corporation. I am correct in so saying. Am I limited to saying that there is no other aspect of the institution Proctor and Gamble other than it is a corporation? Of course not. There may be many other aspects to it that are just as important as the fact that it is a corporation. Just something to keep in mind for the future since I see you do this so often.

Are you now saying that the visible structure of the RCC is not the Church, though they take that name?

No. Just like every other organized Christian denomination, there is a visible structure to the Catholic Church that is properly an aspect of it being the Church. It is the visible organizational aspect of the Church. When an Episcopalian or an Evangelical Presbyterian says that they are “going to church” on Sunday, what do you think they are referring to?

So you are saying that one can be in the Body of Christ but outside of the Body of Christ at the very same time.

Nope. One can conceivably be a part of the invisible and Mystical Body of Christ without being part of the visible structures of the Church. That is not to say that the visible Church has nothing to do with the Body of Christ. If you are outside of the visible Church, you are at the very least not in full communion with the Body.

 

[tdgesq]

. . . Continued

If not, all you are doing is telling me that the visible RCC is NOT the Body of Christ and that Christ’s true church (His Body) is invisible. This is what RC apologists attack non-Catholics for on a daily basis.

I’ve said exactly the opposite. Your logic is faulty. The visible Church is part of the Body. In fact, reject it with full knowledge of it’s place in the Body and you suffer exclusion from the entire Body. And the reason RC apologists attack you is because many non-Catholics are being disingenious when they proclaim that all there is is a non-visible church. All of them have visible and organized structures, by necessity. Anything else would be pure anarchy. They like to deny though that they have these visible structures just like the RC Church.

That is not the complete claim of the RCC.

They say that they, visibly, are the Body of Christ.

They say that Christ left a visible Body to govern and teach.

The non-Catholic churches do the same thing. They just don’t come out and admit it like the RC church. Protestants and Evangelicals have their own visible structured churches - lots and lots of them. They all claim that they follow the teachings of Christ just as he taught them to the apostles. Then when they disagree with each other, they start a new visible and structured church where they proclaim to have the truth. But here’s the deal. There is only one Church that teaches the one true Gospel of Christ. And it’s not just Catholics that make the claim that they are this Church.

I am not a member of any denomination.

Fine. Then what denomination is the church you attend on Sunday.

 

[kaycee]

So, what did you hear at that time that you never heard in all the years before? That will point to where the Catholic upbringing failed you.

Interesting concession that a Baptist can preach a saving Gospel while the RCC for 27 years could not.

 

[Janet_S]

This is from the Documents of Vatican II. I can’t improve on this explanation of the Church:

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

1. Christ, the one Mediator, established and continually sustains here on earth His holy Church, the community of faith, hope and charity, as an entity with visible delineation (9*) through which He communicated truth and grace to all. **But, the society structured with hierarchical organs and the Mystical Body of Christ, are not **to be considered as two realities, nor are the visible assembly and the spiritual community, nor the earthly Church and the Church enriched with heavenly things; rather they form one complex reality which coalesces from a divine and a human element.(10) For this reason, by no weak analogy, it is compared to the mystery of the incarnate Word. As the assumed nature inseparably united to Him, serves the divine Word as a living organ of salvation, so, in a similar way, does the visible social structure of the Church serve the Spirit of Christ, who vivifies it, in the building up of the body.(73) (11)
   This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, (12) which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd,(74) and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority,(75) which He erected for all ages as “the pillar and mainstay of the truth”.(76) This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him,(13) although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity. . . .
2. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth. . .
3. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

 

[Janet_S]

Documents of Vatican II (continued)

DECREE ON ECUMENISM
UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html

Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can **exist outside the visible boundaries of the **Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ.

The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.

It follows that the separated Churches(23) and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.

 

[kaycee]

I know there are lots of people like you, Kaycee. Many of my family members have left the Church too.

Just know that if you every want to come back, we would be glad to have you.

Thanks for the sentiment and I understand you believe that the RCC is home.

I am already home in the hand of my Saviour and no man can take me from Him. I stand in the unmerited favor of the one who died for me while I was yet a sinner. It is His righteousness that has made me whole, HE did it ALL, I added nothing.

 

[kaycee]

I pray for kaycee’s conversion to come Home. Jesus misses her in Holy Communion.

Conversion to what? It is Jesus that saves, non other.

Kaycee is a he, (brian)

 

[Janet_S]

Interesting concession that a Baptist can preach a saving Gospel while the RCC for 27 years could not.

Of course, God works in mysterious ways.

The CC can and does preach a saving Gospel–history shows us this.

The Catholic nuns didn’t get through to me either when I went to Catholic school, but you can’t ignore the fact that the CC Christianized much of the world. What countries were Christianized by Protestants?

 

[dessert]

Thanks for the sentiment and I understand you believe that the RCC is home.

I am already home in the hand of my Saviour and no man can take me from Him. I stand in the unmerited favor of the one who died for me while I was yet a sinner. It is His righteousness that has made me whole, HE did it ALL, I added nothing.

I don’t know why you are thinking that anyone is trying to say that they are trying to take you away from your Savior.
Jesus is my Savior too in the fullness of the Trinity the Father Son and Holy Spirit.
We can stand together hand in hand.
Are we and individual faith or a collective?

Someone convinced me that I needed to be rebaptised and silly me believed it to be true when my Baptism in the RCC was valid all along. I was fooled into believing that I was not really with Jesus and not forgiven.
Why did I believe this I acan’t say for sure and I am not blaming anyone except my own unbelief.

We don’t add anything, I agree, but faith.

So when I make the profession of Faith at Church joined in the we believe we are the body of Christ.

Do you remember it? Dessert

 

[guanophore]

Interesting concession that a Baptist can preach a saving Gospel while the RCC for 27 years could not.

It is not a concession that a saving gospel was not being preached. However, the methods used were obviously not effective in your case. I think the Catholic Church has a lot to learn about evangelism, beginning with evangelizing its members.