SPLIT: Those Who Leave the Catholic Faith

[mrs_abbott]

Man, I hate not being able to get on the internet very much anymore. I missed a good conversation and the introduction of these oh-so cool, new smileys. :extrahappy:

 

[kaycee]

Trent agrees with the New Testament, while Sola Fide does not, therefore the statements of these Cannons is correct and you are not.

You can try to portray your beliefs as Biblically accurate and allege whatever you please, but you cannot make a case for yourself that is irrefutable from scripture alone, much less the verifiable history of Christianity, and the ECF. In short yours is a new wind of doctrines of men concocted a mere 500 years ago. That makes your message “another gospel”.

I must disagree and stand with Paul. Clearly a gospel of cooperation, merit, works, maintaining a state of grace, indulgences is clearly antithetical to the Spirit of the God Breathed Scripture of Romans, Ephesians, Galations and no amount of scripture twisting of several verses in James can change that. The RC gospel enables boasting! In the RC gospel Jesus saves No One and is dependent on the cooporation and good works of the creature! Sorry, the Gospel of Grace was not written 500 years ago, just rediscovered.

 

[guanophore]

I must disagree and stand with Paul. Clearly a gospel of cooperation, merit, works, maintaining a state of grace, indulgences is clearly antithetical to the Spirit of the God Breathed Scripture of Romans, Ephesians, Galations and no amount of scripture twisting of several verses in James can change that. The RC gospel enables boasting! In the RC gospel Jesus saves No One and is dependent on the cooporation and good works of the creature! Sorry, the Gospel of Grace was not written 500 years ago, just rediscovered.

Let me see if I understand this right. You are saying that:

It is not the responsibility of the Christian to cooperate with the Holy Spirit

There is no merit in such cooperation (there is nothing Christians can, or should do, that will bring merit to themselves or others?

There are no works expected of Christians?

It is not necessary to remain or strive for a state of grace?

You are saying that all these things are against the gospel?

You are saying that James is twisted by linking faith and works?

 

[Janet_S]

I must disagree and stand with Paul. Clearly a gospel of cooperation, merit, works, maintaining a state of grace, indulgences is clearly antithetical to the Spirit of the God Breathed Scripture of Romans, Ephesians, Galations and no amount of scripture twisting of several verses in James can change that. The RC gospel enables boasting! In the RC gospel Jesus saves No One and is dependent on the cooporation and good works of the creature! Sorry, the Gospel of Grace was not written 500 years ago, just rediscovered.

Don’t be so sure Paul is standing with you.

Don’t you think Protestants engage in boasting too? Boasting about how much faith they have or how much time they spend reading the Bible? What’s the difference between their “boasting” and our “boasting”?

Catholics do believe we are saved by God’s grace, but we must respond to His grace with our free will.

Catholics don’t need to twist verses in James to defend our position. All we need to do it listen to Jesus in Matthew’s gospel. Read Matthew 5-7, 10:37-39, 16:24, 19:16-22, 25:31-46, then let us know how these verses make any sense through the lens of your theology?

Where does discipleship fit into your version of the Gospel? Isn’t discipleship something that enables boasting?

 

[guanophore]

Don’t be so sure Paul is standing with you.

Don’t you think Protestants engage in boasting too? Boasting about how much faith they have or how much time they spend reading the Bible? What’s the difference between their “boasting” and our “boasting”?

Really! Paul did more boasting than anyone in the NT!!

1 Cor 9:15-16
“For I would rather die than have any one deprive me of my ground for boasting.”

2 Cor 7:14-15
14 For if I have expressed to him some pride in you, I was not put to shame; but just as everything we said to you was true, so our boasting before Titus has proved true."

I guess he can get away with boasting because he boasts of the truth?

2 Cor 8:24
4 So give proof, before the churches, of your love and of our boasting about you to these men. "

Or because he is boasting about others?

Sounds like he is pretty attached to his boasting! And can he ever get on a rant!

2 Cor 11:21-12:1

But whatever any one dares to boast of - I am speaking as a fool - I also dare to boast of that. 22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they descendants of Abraham? So am I. 23 Are they servants of Christ? I am a better one - I am talking like a madman - with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, with countless beatings, and often near death. 24 Five times I have received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one. 25 Three times I have been beaten with rods; once I was stoned. Three times I have been shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been adrift at sea; 26 on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brethren; 27 in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. 28 And, apart from other things, there is the daily pressure upon me of my anxiety for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to fall, and I am not indignant?

30 If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed for ever, knows that I do not lie. 32 At Damascus, the governor under King Ar’etas guarded the city of Damascus in order to seize me, 33 but I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and escaped his hands."

No, he is boasting about his own works, and suffering for Christ.

Where does discipleship fit into your version of the Gospel? Isn’t discipleship something that enables boasting?

Certainly Paul thought it was!

 

[Church_Militant]

I must disagree and stand with Paul.

As St. Paul goes and :doh2:

Clearly a gospel of cooperation, merit, works, maintaining a state of grace, indulgences is clearly antithetical to the Spirit of the God Breathed Scripture of Romans, Ephesians, Galations and no amount of scripture twisting of several verses in James can change that.

Is it considered Christian to twist others beliefs to suit your own agenda and then criticize them in order to mislead others?

The New Testament gospel is not the oversimplified “Christianity Lite” that is the crux of the vast majority of n-C churches. The fact is that the very epistles that you cite (along with the entire rest of the New Testament!) are also the sources for the Catholic gospel and they do not teach the corrupted messages of Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, OSAS, the Rapture, or that works have no merit before God nor consequence at judgment.

Leaving the Catholic Church for n-C churches is indeed departing from the New Testament Gospel.

The RC gospel enables boasting!

You wish! Show me anywhere in Catholic teaching where we are taught to boast of anything before God! I defy you to do it because I know for a fact that you cannot do so. You wish you could because then it would make your rhetorical anti-Catholic propaganda appear true, when in fact it is not.

In the RC gospel Jesus saves No One and is dependent on the cooporation and good works of the creature!

Bunk! This is just further propagandizing, stated as if factual when the New Testament does not support your teachings, as any good Bible study will show.

Sorry, the Gospel of Grace was not written 500 years ago, just rediscovered.

More propaganda!

When in fact the New Testament overwhelmingly supports Catholic soteriology as does the writings of the ECF and the verifiable historic teachings of Christianity prior to the so-called reformation, some 500 years ago.

The preponderance of evidence condemns the majority of n-C teaching on salvation which plainly makes it a new gospel and one different from that of Christ and His apostles.

The Catholic Church doesn’t read around or leave parts of the Gospel out in an effort to tickle the ears, or deceive souls away from His Church. Those of us who have been among you n-Cs for so long and been as diligent in study as St. Paul encouraged Timothy to be can see this and will not be deceived a second time.

Save the propaganda for your own church…People like me have already “come out from among her”

 

[Milliardo]

Clearly a gospel of cooperation, merit, works, maintaining a state of grace, indulgences is clearly antithetical to the Spirit of the God Breathed Scripture of Romans, Ephesians, Galations

Why do you only take Paul into account? Where are Jesus’ words here? Jesus is clear: Come, follow Me. He is asking us to cooperate with Him. In the Gospel last Sunday, the woman accused of adultery was told by Him, “Sin no more.” Again, that is cooperation–Jesus didn’t just say that she’s fogiven and left it at that; He said, sin no more. Do not do it again. He is saying, then, that she must do her part, or else the forgiveness given her would be nullified.

In the RC gospel Jesus saves No One and is dependent on the cooporation and good works of the creature!

Because that’s how it really is–we do our share. Salvation is a two-way street. God saves us, but man must also do his part, to bear the fruits of salvation. This is what God will judge us by–our works. Can you show us any passage which says we will not be judged by what we’ve done?

 

[TheApologist]

…they do not teach the corrupted messages of Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, OSAS, the Rapture, or that works have no merit before God nor consequence at judgment.

Just a side note…what does OSAS stand for?

 

[Eileen_T]

Once Saved Always Saved

The doctrine that once you have been “saved”, nothing you do can alter that.

Except maybe, that you weren’t really saved, you just *thought *you were.

 

[TheApologist]

Yeah, thanks guanophore and eileen.

I once listened to a speaker who came to a local Catholic conference and he had this great story. (Really short.)

He was at a previous conference and he happened to be eating with a few Protestants and a young Catholic teen. When a Protestant asked her if she had been saved, the girl said “every day.” I love that answer!

EDIT:
Ever heard of the speaker?..Jesse Manibusan. He was great. He had great songs, stories, and comedy! If he’s speaking near you, you should go. END OF PLUG.

 

[lak611]

Because that’s how it really is–we do our share. Salvation is a two-way street. God saves us, but man must also do his part, to bear the fruits of salvation. This is what God will judge us by–our works. Can you show us any passage which says we will not be judged by what we’ve done?

Rev 20:12

(CEV) I also saw all the dead people standing in front of that throne. Every one of them was there, no matter who they had once been. Several books were opened, and then the book of life was opened. The dead were judged by what those books said they had done.

(DRB) And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne. And the books were opened: and another book was opened, which was the book of life. And the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

(ESV) And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

(KJV) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

(MKJV) And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God. And books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

(MSG) And then I saw all the dead, great and small, standing there–before the Throne! And books were opened. Then another book was opened: the Book of Life. The dead were judged by what was written in the books, by the way they had lived.

(NASB) And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

(NET) And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. Then33 books were opened, and another book was opened — the book of life.34 So35 the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds.36

(RV) And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 

[Milliardo]

Rev 20:12

(CEV) I also saw all the dead people standing in front of that throne. Every one of them was there, no matter who they had once been. Several books were opened, and then the book of life was opened. The dead were judged by what those books said they had done.

Nowhere did I see that we won’t be judged by what we’ve done…still waiting for any refutation on this one.

 

[SuzieB]

OSAS= Once Saved Always Saved

 

[TheApologist]

Yeah, Suzie, I got it, thanks.

I think Protestants like once they have been Saved that all sins are forgiven. So I guess those are aren’t Saved WILL be judged?

Yikes.

EDIT:
I wonder what constitutes being “saved.” This would be another good thread.

 

[Milliardo]

Yeah, Suzie, I got it, thanks.

I think Protestants like once they have been Saved that all sins are forgiven. So I guess those are aren’t Saved WILL be judged?

They would have to prove that from the New Testament. Nowhere is it implied that those who believe will not be judged.

 

[guanophore]

Yeah, Suzie, I got it, thanks.

I think Protestants like once they have been Saved that all sins are forgiven. So I guess those are aren’t Saved WILL be judged?

Yikes.

EDIT:
I wonder what constitutes being “saved.” This would be another good thread.

In addition to the works salvation thread, there is one going on eternal life. Scripture teaches us that all will be judged, the saved and the unsaved.

 

[mlldrl]

Well folks I’ve been following this thread for some time and have posted a few times too. I thank all my faithful Catholic brother and sister for the great posts! In the end, as Michael said a few posts ago, I believe this is another case of a few people with chips (really big ones!) on their shoulder. Pity. Anyway, time for me to shake this thread off my sandals. I think the faithful Catholics has said about all there is to say.

Cheers!
M

 

[kaycee]

Don’t be so sure Paul is standing with you.

Don’t you think Protestants engage in boasting too? Boasting about how much faith they have or how much time they spend reading the Bible? What’s the difference between their “boasting” and our “boasting”?

Clearly, the concept i mean is boasting about attaining salvation, not other kinds of boasting.

Rom 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Where does discipleship fit into your version of the Gospel? Isn’t discipleship something that enables boasting?

Not in salvation.

 

[kaycee]

Let me see if I understand this right. You are saying that:

It is not the responsibility of the Christian to cooperate with the Holy Spirit

Offcourse it is, but not for salvation.

There is no merit in such cooperation (there is nothing Christians can, or should do, that will bring merit to themselves or others?

We will be rewarded for by Jesus for service after we are in heaven, but not to attain heaven.

There are no works expected of Christians?

May it never be! We have been given work to do Eph 2:8-10. This is the result of salvation, not to attain. After one is made a new creature in Christ, good works are a natural result. A lion can’t help but roar, apple trees bear apples, fig trees bear figs.

It is not necessary to remain or strive for a state of grace?

Remaining and striving create debt and payment not biblical Grace (unmerited favor). The RCC mixes the two. Sometimes unmerited, more often merited by works and sacraments. Paul clearly states that works nullify saving grace.

Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

You are saying that all these things are against the gospel?

Certainly not.

You are saying that James is twisted by linking faith and works?

Surely Not! James is answering the one who SAYS he has faith, but has no works. You say your a fig tree? Where are your figs?

 

[I_Leatherman]

Do you need figs?