SPLIT: Vatican I re: headcoverings for women

[yablabo]

There was a woman yesterday at our Saturday vigil Mass and she had on a sunhat the whole time. I didn’t pay attention whether or not she went to receive communion with it on. but the father kept looking at her but maybe she guessed he was just making eye contact during the homily. I was asking my Lord for forgiveness for judging her for having the hat on. Maybe she had a reason for having it on, but maybe not. Was it okay? or did I sin by not telling her that it is not just inappropriate but disrespectful to have it on especially during Mass and especially during consecration.

Because it is our job as a Church to not just announce the Good News but denounce those who do things against it, the Church and God.

Any Th0ts?

In the First Vatican Council, Chapter 3 (On Faith) #8 it says:

Wherefore, by Divine and Catholic faith all those things are to be believed which are contained in the Word of God as found in Scripture and Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or in her ordinary and universal Magisterium.

Obviously women’s head covering at prayer and during prophesy is mandated by St. Paul in Scripture (1 Corinthians ch. 11) and it is the Tradition of the Church that such is done for women praying in public…which makes it an article of faith.

The First Vatican Council, under Canons (4. On Faith and Reason) #3 states:

1. If anyone says that it is possible that at some time, given the advancement of knowledge, a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the Church which is different from that which the Church has understood and understands: let him be anathema.

And so in the performance of Our Supreme Pastoral Office, We beseech for the love of Jesus Christ and We command, by the authority of Him Who is also our God and Saviour, all faithful Christians, especially those in authority or who have the duty of teaching, that they contribute their zeal and labour to the warding off and elimination of these errors from the Church and to the spreading of the light of the pure faith.

So, once it is an article of faith, it is always an article of faith. Simply because some women, starting in the 1960’s, were disobedient to Canon Law, and this matter of faith, does not remove it from Tradition. Also, the fact that the 1983 Canon Law does not mention it, does not remove for women the necessity of wearing the head covering for public prayer.

– Nicole

 

[Joannm]

In the First Vatican Council, Chapter 3 (On Faith) #8 it says:

Wherefore, by Divine and Catholic faith all those things are to be believed which are contained in the Word of God as found in Scripture and Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or in her ordinary and universal Magisterium.

Obviously women’s head covering at prayer and during prophesy is mandated by St. Paul in Scripture (1 Corinthians ch. 11) and it is the Tradition of the Church that such is done for women praying in public…which makes it an article of faith.

The First Vatican Council, under Canons (4. On Faith and Reason) #3 states:

1. If anyone says that it is possible that at some time, given the advancement of knowledge, a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the Church which is different from that which the Church has understood and understands: let him be anathema.

And so in the performance of Our Supreme Pastoral Office, We beseech for the love of Jesus Christ and We command, by the authority of Him Who is also our God and Saviour, all faithful Christians, especially those in authority or who have the duty of teaching, that they contribute their zeal and labour to the warding off and elimination of these errors from the Church and to the spreading of the light of the pure faith.

So, once it is an article of faith, it is always an article of faith. Simply because some women, starting in the 1960’s, were disobedient to Canon Law, and this matter of faith, does not remove it from Tradition. Also, the fact that the 1983 Canon Law does not mention it, does not remove for women the necessity of wearing the head covering for public prayer.

– Nicole

You need to learn the difference between dogma and disipline, between an article of faith and Church practice. Head covering is not an article of faith.

 

[yablabo]

You need to learn the difference between dogma and disipline, between an article of faith and Church practice. Head covering is not an article of faith.

So…you’re telling me that this tradition was not taught by the Apostles? and that it is not found in Scripture? and therefore does not fit the definition of what must be believed with Divine and Catholic faith as taught in the First Vatican Council?

– Nicole

 

[Jean_Anthony]

aaa

 

[centurionguard]

For me as a man this whole idea about (“head-coverings for women”) is so archaic.
Why should a woman have to cover her head anymore than a man ?
Utterly Ridiculous.

I mean; can’t a man have the strength to look at a woman without entertaining lustful thoughts in ones mind ? Is it not rather a more important issue with concerns to the type of clothing that equally both men and women wear to Church that may seem provocatively alluring in nature to bring attention to oneself that needs to be addressed ?

 

[zab]

So…you’re telling me that this tradition was not taught by the Apostles? and that it is not found in Scripture? and therefore does not fit the definition of what must be believed with Divine and Catholic faith as taught in the First Vatican Council?

– Nicole

There is a difference between tradition and Sacred Tradition, the latter being the Word of God passed down by word of mouth. Traditions such as that of women wearing veils is not part of the doctrine of faith and these traditions can change. We have a tendency to be nostalgic when it comes to looking into the past and one can easily find wearing of veils as attractive. I’m just curious if the trend to pick up the tradition again of wearing “chapel veils” is more of a fad than a believe that women should keep their heads covered. When I was a young girl, many of us wore scarfs and some of the elderly ladies wore hats. I don’t recall that “chapel veils” were totally popular until the 60’s when the lacy fabric was easier to rest on a boufant hair-do. When we found that we forgot our chapel veil, we scouried around to find a Klenex to cover our head. I wonder how many of those wanting to return to the practice of wearing chapel veils would be so concerned.

 

[Cluny]

<<So…you’re telling me that this tradition was not taught by the Apostles? and that it is not found in Scripture? >>

As a matter of fact, there was considerable disagreement in ancient Christian writers whether this applied to ALL females regardless of age, just to married women and widows, or those of an age to be married.

In other words, it was a discipline, and there were differences of opinion as to how this discipline was supposed to work.

 

[centurionguard]

There is a difference between tradition and Sacred Tradition, the latter being the Word of God passed down by word of mouth. Traditions such as that of women wearing veils is not part of the doctrine of faith and these traditions can change. We have a tendency to be nostalgic when it comes to looking into the past and one can easily find wearing of veils as attractive. I’m just curious if the trend to pick up the tradition again of wearing “chapel veils” is more of a fad than a believe that women should keep their heads covered. When I was a young girl, many of us wore scarfs and some of the elderly ladies wore hats. I don’t recall that “chapel veils” were totally popular until the 60’s when the lacy fabric was easier to rest on a boufant hair-do. When we found that we forgot our chapel veil, we scouried around to find a Klenex to cover our head. I wonder how many of those wanting to return to the practice of wearing chapel veils would be so concerned.

I wonder how many of those wanting to return to the practice of wearing chapel veils would be so concerned.

With no intention of insulting anyone. I don’t think this out-dated custom
is anyone’s concern with the exception of the woman who chooses to wear it through her
own personal cognizance or perhaps a woman’s own interior spiritual motivation towards mortification of the senses. Aside from this it’s nobodies business.

 

[RosalieM]

St. Paul does mention that women should wear head coverings in church and also says they should not have short hair. If one reads on to the conclusion of what he has to say on this subject, one will see that he concludes (and I’m paraphrasing) that whatever one decides; it should not be a bone of contention among people. He didn’t want people to argue with each other about it.
The woman with the sun hat was not at fault for wearing her hat in church. I usually have something on my head except when I’m in choir. Quite a few women at the EWTN masses are wearing lace on their heads. It’s a matter of choice these days or so it seems.
However, men wearing hats in church is an entirely different story.
p.s. I do miss Easter bonnets…God bless.

 

[ncjohn]

Do we really have to rehash all of this yet again?

http://bestsmileys.com/oneofakind/1.gif

 

[Adrian_T]

.
However, men wearing hats in church is an entirely different story.
.

Why would this be an entirely different story?

If a man wore a hat in church, he would be most certainly frown upon, to say the least. There is still a sort of explicit/implicit requirement that men should not wear headcoverings - isn’t that as “archaic” as asking women to wear headcoverings?

 

[maryjk]

Do we really have to rehash all of this yet again?

http://bestsmileys.com/oneofakind/1.gif

But the discussions get sooooo funny.

I’m right and you aren’t. NO, I’m right and you are wrong !!

:slapfight::slapfight:

 

[rkrispies]

Do we really have to rehash all of this yet again?

http://bestsmileys.com/oneofakind/1.gif

Best emoticon I have ever seen!!!

 

[puppypatrol]

It is not inappropriate nor disrespectful for a woman to wear a hat or head covering during Mass. It is simply a matter of personal preference. Older Catholics were in the habit of wearing head coverings and many carried it through Vatican II to today.

A man, on the other hand, is disrespectful if he does not remove his had on entering a building as a matter of manners. Jewish men wear some kind of head covering during services as a matter of tradition.

In the end, it all boils down to tradition.

 

[ADELITA]

I grew up in the 50’s and 60’s in the pre-Vatican II Catholic Church. I had the opportunity to experience wearing either a hat or veil to Sunday Mass and it was great fun! Back then women never wore pants to church and always wore hose with our skirts or dresses. “Sunday Best” attire meant just that. We were taught back then that the reason women covered their heads was not only to show respect but also to prevent the men from “lusting after us” due to our beautiful hair which was grown long in the 60’s. After Vatican II, our veils and hats were no longer required according to our local church rules, the Mass became more understandable and there were many other changes - some we liked and some we did not - but we always obeyed! In my church today, some of the older ladies still wear veils to church. Some of us middle-aged women have started wearing veils on special occasions such as when we process into church as a Rosary Society once a month. I have read the Vatican position on this and I understand what it says. However, our Diocese does not require women to wear a veil to mass and after speaking to some local religious sisters, they are given the option as well. Hope this helps!