SPLIT: What did Christ teach that wasn't written,and if it wasn't written how can you be sure He taught it?

[n2thelight]

Church Militant Quote:
Originally Posted by n2thelight

1. Death disrupts the interaction between saints on earth and saints in heaven

Does it? That’s not what Hebrews 12:1 teaches.
The Intercession & Communion of Saints

Hebrews 12:1 “Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,”

This verse has nothing whatsoever to do with saints in Heaven and those on earth

Necromancy, which is calling up the dead to attempt to foretell the future is what is forbidden. Christianity has always recorded prayers for the intercession of the faithful departed saints. Their tombs can be found with such prayers on them to this day.

Do show scripture where someone prayed to someone who has died.Do these saints turn God like in that they can even hear your prayers?

When we die in Christ we are cleansed, at the instant of death,we don’t have to go off somewhere to be cleansed.

Really? That’s not what the Word of God says. Matthew 22:11 And the king went in to see the guests: and he saw there a man who had not on a wedding garment. 1213 Then the king said to the waiters: Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the exterior darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

You are totally missing the point of scripture so let me help you out.

Matthew 22:11 “And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:”

This is important to understand. This wedding garment is told of in Revelation 19:8; “…she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.”

The clothes worn by those that will be going to this wedding of the Lamb, between Jesus Christ and his bride, the Church, is made up of your righteous acts, that’s right, your works. This man at the wedding , given in this parable had no righteous acts, he was there nude, and naked as can be. Remember this is a parable, and speaking in a spiritual sense, and Jesus is telling you and I what it will be like to show up at the wedding, with no righteous acts to our credit, nor service given in the name of Christ.

This verse is simply talking about the only thing you can take to heaven,your works,for that is what you will be rewarded for.

Revelation 19:8 “And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.”

The “fine linen, clean and white” text reads “bright and pure”. The fine linen are the righteousness of your acts while you are living in your flesh body on earth. The only works that count are the works done for our Lord, without gain to us in this earth age.

You really should stop taking scripture out of context,and follow the subject

 

[mlchance]

Hebrews 12:1 …

This verse has nothing whatsoever to do with saints in Heaven and those on earth

Read the previous chapter. It talks about the Old Testament saints in Heaven, and then refers to them as a “great cloud of witnesses”. The implication is obviously that they are aware of us in this life.

Do show scripture where someone prayed to someone who has died.

Right after you show Scripture forbidding one from praying to those in Heaven.

When we die in Christ we are cleansed, at the instant of death,we don’t have to go off somewhere to be cleansed.

Do show some Scripture that says that.

You really should stop taking scripture out of context,and follow the subject

Who says irony is dead?

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[TheGreenO]

Let me post this again!

And we see that their service is prayer…

Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel. - Rev 8:3-4

These holy ones are the people in heaven, if they are not aware of prayers, sufferings, etc from the earth, then why do they need to be offering prayers? They are already in heaven, they no longer need to ask the Lord for anything for themselves. They have attained a share in heaven and eternal life for themselves. The only reason they would pray for themselves in this instance were if they were in purgatory.

 

[n2thelight]

Gamera

So you’re saying St. Paul committed blasphemy when he prayed for the soul of dead Onesiphorus (2 Tim 1:18)?

If I steal a dollar and repent, Jesus will forgive me — but I still owe my victim his dollar. I can’t shrug off my victim and say, “I don’t owe you anything, Jesus forgave me, I refuse to go on a guilt trip.” We are accountable for the temporal consequences of our sins, even after the sins are forgiven. Paying back the dollar isn’t a “guilt trip.” It isn’t “having to be saved all over again.” It is called responsibility.

You’re essentially saying that I should tell the victim, “I refuse to pay you back your dollar because Jesus paid it all on the cross.” And you are accusing us of blasphemy? Sorry, I love Jesus too much to abuse His sacrifice like that.

Again you are missing the point,I never said there was anything wrong with praying for the dead(I don’t know what good it will do)but rather asking the dead to pray for you,thats the problem.

II Timothy 1:18 “The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.”

Paul is talking to the lord in this verse,not David Adam Daniel or any other dead saint.

If you steal a dollar from someone and repented of that sin,and then died God will not hold that against you.If you live you should pay that person back.

For example if I robbed a bank,when I get caught Im going to jail,thats the price I pay to society for breaking the law,If I repent of that crime to God Im still not getting out until my sentence is up,but upon repentance God will not remember that crime therefor I will not be sent to some place called purgatory for it.

Again Christ died that I may be forgiven,and when I die I go instantly to the Father noy purgatory

As far as the blasphemy,you didnt read it right, what I said was once you are saved you don’t have to be saved again,but you must repent of your sins

 

[Gamera]

Again you are missing the point,I never said there was anything wrong with praying for the dead(I don’t know what good it will do)but rather asking the dead to pray for you,thats the problem.

II Timothy 1:18 “The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.”

Paul is talking to the lord in this verse,not David Adam Daniel or any other dead saint…

No, this is about purgatory, not intercession. Sorry if I was unclear about which of your points I was addressing. See, if a dead person is in heaven, they don’t need prayers, and if a dead person is in hell, they cannot be helped. So the only dead people who could possibly benefit from our prayers, are those in purgatory. That is why St. Paul prayed for Onisehporus in 2 Tim 1:18. If Onisephorus was in hell, prayers couldn’t help him, and if Onisephorus was in heaven, prayers wouldn’t be needed. So where else might Onisephorus be, that St Paul would pray for his soul? Purgatory.

If you steal a dollar from someone and repented of that sin,and then died God will not hold that against you.If you live you should pay that person back.

For example if I robbed a bank,when I get caught Im going to jail,thats the price I pay to society for breaking the law,If I repent of that crime to God Im still not getting out until my sentence is up,but upon repentance God will not remember that crime therefor I will not be sent to some place called purgatory for it.

Again Christ died that I may be forgiven,and when I die I go instantly to the Father noy purgatory

So you agree that each sin has both a temporal consequence and an eternal consequence. Good, we agree on that. Catholics call that temporal consequence “penance.” Now what happens to the penance owed if you die before you pay it? Does God just forget it?

As far as the blasphemy,you didnt read it right, what I said was once you are saved you don’t have to be saved again,but you must repent of your sins

Well, if you believe in the manmade doctrine of “Once Saved, Always Saved,” that deserves its own thread. However, I was referring to the line that belief in penance done in purgatory was “akin to blasphemy.”

 

[TheGreenO]

If you steal a dollar from someone and repented of that sin,and then died God will not hold that against you.If you live you should pay that person back.

Nothing impure can enter into heaven, so if you don’t repent for your the dollar you stole, do you think you are going to hell for such a minor sin? If he doesn’t hold it against you (repaying) that’s fine, but you still have sin on your soul either way you look at it, serious or not serious, its there, and nothing impure/unclean can enter into heaven.

 

[mlchance]

1. Death disrupts the interaction between saints on earth and saints in heaven

Scripture that says this?

Again Christ died that I may be forgiven,and when I die I go instantly to the Father noy purgatory

Scripture that says this?

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Church_Militant]

So you plan to just completely ignore my second post huh?

I wouldn’t if I were you…I worked hard at accumulating all that and getting it posted, and I won’t respond further to you until you do.

Oh, and when I start “taking scripture out of context…” I’ll call you to find out where you go to church because it seems that I will fit right in.

 

[allhers]

So you plan to just completely ignore my second post huh?

I wouldn’t if I were you…I worked hard at accumulating all that and getting it posted, and I won’t respond further to you until you do.

Oh, and when I start “taking scripture out of context…” I’ll call you to find out where you go to church because it seems that I will fit right in.

Rest assured that even if in2thelight (although they sound like they are more into the darkness) doesn’t read or respond to your postings, many are learning from what you and other posters on here are posting. I think this thread is incredible, its one worth saving, as it is just about everything that I learned in 4 years of Catholic High School Religion class that was taught by Priests and Nuns. You guys are great!!

 

[TobyLue]

n2thelight
Unless you happen to be the author of this website, I would suggest you site the link. Your post #31 be conscrued as plagiarism.

 

[TheGreenO]

n2thelight
Unless you happen to be the author of this website, I would suggest you site the link. Your post #31 be conscrued as plagiarism.

Wow, ya, might want to do that!

 

[TobyLue]

To go back to the original post--------

What did Christ teach that was’nt written,and if it was’nt written how can you be sure He taught it

With this in mind

“But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written,” John 21:25.

And this

“But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you,” John 14:26

We know from the above that Jesus taught the disciples many things. It is not written “specifically”, to answer the question of what the Christ teach that wasn’t written, that "Jesus said to baptize infants”. However, the question about infant baptism has been answered countless times.

But, because we have the following we know that Jesus taught it because HE taught the apostles, and the apostles passed on that same teaching to their disciples, and the disciples to their disciples and so on and on till the present.

Infant baptism.

Irenaeus

“He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God–**infants, and children, and youths, and old men. **Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age” (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 180]).

And

Hippolytus

Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

Origen

“Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin . . . In the Church baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous” (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 244]).

Augustine

“What the universal Church holds, not as instituted [invented] by councils but as something always held, is most correctly believed to have been handed down by apostolic authority. Since others respond for children, so that the celebration of the sacrament may be complete for them, it is certainly availing to them for their consecration, because they themselves are not able to respond” (On Baptism 4:24:31 [A.D. 400]).

And even Martin Luther taught it.
Now if God did not accept the Baptism of infants, he would not have given any of them the Holy Spirit nor any part of him; in short, all this time down to the present day no man on earth could have been a Christian. Since God has confirmed infant baptism through the gift of the Holy Spirit. . . our adversaries must admit that infant Baptism is pleasing to God. For he can never be in conflict with himself support lies and wickedness, or give his grace and spirit for such ends. (Tappert: Book of Concord, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1959] pp. 442-3

So there was never any question in the early church not even during the Deformation concerning infant baptism until some dudes started coming up with their own man-made inventions.

The only question that arose was how soon to baptize infants.

 

[TheGreenO]

To go back to the original post--------
With this in mind

“But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written,” John 21:25.

And this

“But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you,” John 14:26

We know from the above that Jesus taught the disciples many things. It is not written “specifically”, to answer the question of what the Christ teach that wasn’t written, that "Jesus said to baptize infants”. However, the question about infant baptism has been answered countless times.

But, because we have the following we know that Jesus taught it because HE taught the apostles, and the apostles passed on that same teaching to their disciples, and the disciples to their disciples and so on and on till the present.

Infant baptism.

Irenaeus

“He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God–**infants, and children, and youths, and old men. **Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age” (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 180]).

And

Hippolytus

Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

Origen

“Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin . . . In the Church baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous” (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 244]).

Augustine

“What the universal Church holds, not as instituted [invented] by councils but as something always held, is most correctly believed to have been handed down by apostolic authority. Since others respond for children, so that the celebration of the sacrament may be complete for them, it is certainly availing to them for their consecration, because they themselves are not able to respond” (On Baptism 4:24:31 [A.D. 400]).

And even Martin Luther taught it.
Now if God did not accept the Baptism of infants, he would not have given any of them the Holy Spirit nor any part of him; in short, all this time down to the present day no man on earth could have been a Christian. Since God has confirmed infant baptism through the gift of the Holy Spirit. . . our adversaries must admit that infant Baptism is pleasing to God. For he can never be in conflict with himself support lies and wickedness, or give his grace and spirit for such ends. (Tappert: Book of Concord, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1959] pp. 442-3

So there was never any question in the early church not even during the Deformation concerning infant baptism until some dudes started coming up with their own man-made inventions.

The only question that arose was how soon to baptize infants.

Very nice! I enjoyed that thoroughly.

 

[allhers]

n2thelight
Unless you happen to be the author of this website, I would suggest you site the link. Your post #31 be conscrued as plagiarism.

Good catch TobyLue, I did a little checking around on that link and here is something else that the OP believes, apparently.
“This was the birth of the Roman Catholic Church. It was created in the year 314 A.D. by Emperor Constantine and Bishop Silvester.”…:yawn: (same story, different day).

 

[cfrancis]

If N2thelight’s response to the saints and purgatory looks familiar to many of you, it comes from Dr Joe Mizzi’s site. Here’s where N2 lifted his material: insidecatholicism.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/prayingtothesaints.doc

EDIT: didnt’ see TobyLue’s post. Looks like this material is the proverbial self-licking ice cream cone!

Question for you, N2thelight:
You say you only believe what is in the Bible, that anything else is a man-made tradition.
Do you believe the Gospel of Matthew is inspired?

 

[vern_humphrey]

A fun exercise is to ask a Sola Scriptura proponent, “Who wrote Revelation?”

Sola Scriptura proponent: “Why, John, of course!” (Perfectly true. "John. to the seven churches in Asia . . . " Revelation, 1,4.)

“Ah, but which John? After all, John is a common name.”

Sola Scriptura proponent: “Why, John the Apostle, of course!!”

“Okay, now prove that from Scripture.”

The authority for saying the John of Revelation is John the Apostle is not in Scripture. It comes from Polycarp and Irenaus, who both knew him personally. That’s Tradition.

 

[cfrancis]

Ooohhh…very nice, vern, very nice…

 

[Gamera]

Easier still, ask them who wrote the Gospel according to Mark. Nowhere does the text identify the writer.

 

[n2thelight]

Re: SPLIT: What did Christ teach that was’nt written,and if it was’nt written how can you be sure He taught it?

---

Quote:
Originally Posted by n2thelight

1. Death disrupts the interaction between saints on earth and saints in heaven

Scripture that says this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by n2thelight
Again Christ died that I may be forgiven,and when I die I go instantly to the Father noy purgatory

Scripture that says this?

Ecclesiastes 12:6 “Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.”

Ecclesiastes 12:7 “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it.”

Then when? After the silver cord breaks, the mind is brain dead, and the body loses its life. Then shall the body “dust” return to the earth as it was, before it was formed into food, and entered your mouth as food to make your flesh body healthy.

The spirit is the intellect of the soul, that gives the soul its identity. This is not complicated. When the body dies, and goes to the grave, the physical body will never have a use again, for the soul has returned to the Father, to God who created it in the first place. Because this is a promise of God, it should be what all Christians look forward to all the days of their lives. That is the day that we will be with the Father and Jesus Christ is heaven, not at some distant time in the future.

So where is the stop over in purgatory?

And my apolgise for not listing my sources in earlier post

 

[n2thelight]

Infant baptism.

Irenaeus

“He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God–infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age” (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 180]).

And

Hippolytus

Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

Origen

“Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin . . . In the Church baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous” (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 244]).

Augustine

“What the universal Church holds, not as instituted [invented] by councils but as something always held, is most correctly believed to have been handed down by apostolic authority. Since others respond for children, so that the celebration of the sacrament may be complete for them, it is certainly availing to them for their consecration, because they themselves are not able to respond” (On Baptism 4:24:31 [A.D. 400]).

And even Martin Luther taught it.
Now if God did not accept the Baptism of infants, he would not have given any of them the Holy Spirit nor any part of him; in short, all this time down to the present day no man on earth could have been a Christian. Since God has confirmed infant baptism through the gift of the Holy Spirit. . . our adversaries must admit that infant Baptism is pleasing to God. For he can never be in conflict with himself support lies and wickedness, or give his grace and spirit for such ends. (Tappert: Book of Concord, [St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1959] pp. 442-3

So there was never any question in the early church not even during the Deformation concerning infant baptism until some dudes started coming up with their own man-made inventions.

The only question that arose was how soon to baptize infants.

CC (Catechism) #189. “The first ‘profession of faith’ is made during Baptism. The symbol of faith is first and foremost the baptismal creed. Since Baptism is given ‘in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit’,[Mt 28:19 .] the truths of faith professed during Baptism are articulated in terms of their reference to the three persons of the Holy Trinity.”

    The above states: "The first 'profession of faith' is made during Baptism."  But the Catholic Church Baptizes at infancy, what "profession of faith" can an infant make?  Nowhere in the Bible were infants Baptized.  In fact, cognizant belief was required BEFORE one could be Baptized:

Acts 8:36-37
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. (KJV)

    That's a bit much to expect out of the mind of a Toddler!  I won't even get into the fact that the Catholic Church Baptizes by sprinkling with water, when the very word Baptize means to completely submerge.

baptize(d): Greek word #907 baptizo (bap-tid’-zo); from a derivative of NT:911; to immerse, submerge; to make overwhelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the N. T.) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: KJV - Baptist, baptize, wash.

   And when Jesus was Baptized we see that He came up out of (Grk. #1537-  ek) the water (i.e., from being down under the water):

Mark 1:9-10
9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized [Grk #907 baptizo] of John in Jordan.
10 And straightway coming up out of [Grk. #1537- ek] the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: (KJV)

    But worse than that, the Catholic Church, by Baptizing her adherents as infants, causes them not to get Baptized while making a cognizant 'profession of faith' as adults!  The people figure that they were already Baptized and why redo it.  They don't understand because the Catholic Church (as well as other denominations who Baptize this way) doesn't tell them.  

    Therefore, the Catholic Church basically is full of people who have not received Baptism willingly and coherently.  This is concerning!  Has not the Catholic Church read the Scriptures, or do they do this knowingly?  How could they honestly error on this one?!?  This is a cause for immediate concern.

biblestudysite.com/baptism.htm