SPLIT: What did Christ teach that wasn't written,and if it wasn't written how can you be sure He taught it?

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Now that we’ve found the appropriate term for N2thelight’s theology, do we think N2 will actually answer the questions posed?

I’s really like to hear N2’s answers to the items N2 believes yet aren’t in Scripture.
 
I’ll check with my two oldest children on the proper declension for “I interpret” so we can get the correct translation of, “By the Verses I Interpret Alone.”
I’m not sure, though, that “I interpret alone” is actually true. One would suspect that “Sola Versurist” are taught what to believe just as Catholics are.
 
Lets start with two

Praying to Mary and the Saints and purgatory

Challenge accepted,start with the two above
Okay. Here’s the first.

The Doctrine of Purgatory Proved from Scripture

2 Maccabees 12:42-46
Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; or if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

Even those Christians who deny that Maccabees 1 & 2 belong are inspired and belong in the canon of the Old Testament must admit that this passage reveals that the Jews believed that that the living may pray for the dead and make sacrifices for them in order that they might be freed from the sins they had committed. It was with this cultural understanding as a backdrop that the following New Testament verses come into focus.

Matthew 12:32
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come
**.**

Does this not imply that some sins can be forgiven in the age to come? Obviously, there is no sin to forgive in heaven, and sin is not forgiven in hell because it’s too late and judgment is permanent. Therefore, the “world to come” where sin can still be forgiven must be a third, distinct place.

Luke 12:42-48
The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. "That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.”

Notice that there are not two but three categories of servants in this parable: 1) the “wise and faithful manager” who is rewarded (heaven); 2) the unfaithful servant who knows his master’s will but does not do it and who is “cut to pieces and assigned a place with the unbelievers (hell)l; and 3) the one “who does not know and does things deserving punishment.” This final servant is beaten with “few blows” (purgatory).

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

1 Peter 1:7
These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.
 
And the second:

Mary as Mediatrix Proved From Scripture

The Catholic Church recognizes Mary’s role in salvation history and invokes her under the title of Mediatrix. However, many people struggle to understand how Mary can have this role which they reserve for Christ alone, and they cite the following verse in support of their position:

1 Timothy 2:5-6
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

Hebrews 7:24-25
because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Here we see that Jesus “always lives to intercede” for “those who come to God through him.” The role of the mediator and the intercessor are synonymous; a mediator lives to intercede for others.

All Christians are called to be mediators or intercessors for one another because we are all members of Christ’s body as we see from Paul’s letter to the Ephesians:

Ephesians 1:22-23
“And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Paul referred to himself as a co-laborer with Christ when he wrote:

1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are God’s fellow workers.

Paul went further in his understanding of our responsibility as co-laborers with Christ when when he wrote:

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

Is anything lacking from the perfect sacrifice that Christ offered upon the Cross? Paul clearly indicates that more is to be done and that he makes up what is “still lacking” in his own flesh.

2 Corinthians 1:6
If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation

Additionally, we know that we are called to share in the priesthood of all believers (cf. 1 Peter 2:5-9), and a priest, by definition, is called to be a mediator between God and men. Each of us is called to this role and to be a mediator or mediatrix for others before God.

Therefore, if we are all called to this role of mediator and intercessor for one another, how much more can this be said of Mary who said, “Yes” to God and brought Christ into the world?

Speaking of this, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

[967](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/967.htm’)😉 By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed, she is the “exemplary realization” (typus) of the Church.

[968](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/968.htm’)😉 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. “In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace.”

[969](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/969.htm’)😉 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”

[970](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/970.htm’)😉 “Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it.” “No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.”
 
I’m not sure, though, that “I interpret alone” is actually true. One would suspect that “Sola Versurist” are taught what to believe just as Catholics are.
Would that not be: I alone interpret?
 
Uh…N2thelight…are you still here? 🤷

Hmmm…perhaps the conversion of Catholics wasn’t as easy as he thought… :ehh:
 
quanophore
Clearly you misunderstand purgatory. The purification is for those who have already been saved by the blood of Jesus. It is necessary because nothing unclean can enter heaven. Furthermore, it is not about eternity, since Jesus has already paid our eternal price. It is for the temporal consequences for sin.
So are you saying Jesus blood could not purify,and again where do you get this temporal consequence sin?And thats the whole point of his thread,a man made tradition that goes against the Word.
Quote:
Originally Posted by n2thelight
If you think you have anything to offer God outside of believing on Jesus, read on about yourself: But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. -
Isaiah 64:6
This is a misunderstanding that derives from heresy during the Reformation. Humans are made in the image and likeness of God. He created us to have fellowship with himself, and has made our good works eternal treasures.
It’s no misunderstanding here,it simply means we can do nothing ourselves outside of Christ,we are cleansed because of His blood,we don’t need any extras.We are to strive to be pure,but we will fall short,repentents,not purgatory.
Sir Knight
Quote:
Originally Posted by n2thelight
Quote:
Care to explain your comments in light of Hebrews 10:26-27 …
These verses have nothing to do with this subject
They have EVERYTHING to do with the subject. They DISPROVE your assertion that we do not have to pay any debt for our sins in purgatory because Christ paid all of our debt. The passage couldn’t be any clearer
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
… If you disagree, then please explain what Hebrews 10:26-27 is saying and I’ll stand corrected
What is the knowledge of the truth?

Hebrews 10:26 “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,”

This is the key, “if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth.” How many people do you think have the knowledge of the truth? The truth is the Word of God, every last verse of it. We are talking about the unforgivable sin.

That unforgivable sin is turning your back to the Spirit of God when that day approaches. When Satan is on earth and the Holy Spirit wants to speak through you when you have the full knowledge of the truth in your mind. There will be no forgiveness for your refusing to allow the Holy Spirit to use you. For that act there is no sacrifice for that sin. Very few people that call themselves Christians today have that knowledge of the full truth. In that day when Satan rules, God is going to place a stupor [or slumber] on those in ignorance, to close their minds to the truth for their own protection. However God’s elect, and certain others will be sealed in their minds with the truth, and know Satan for who he is and will not be deceived. This verse is directed to those elect that have received the knowledge of the truth, and are expected to allow the Holy Spirit to use them and speak through them.

Mark 13:11 “But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: But whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit.”

This is what Paul is speaking of in Hebrews 10:26. When you accepted the body of Christ and you know what is going to happen, as it is written in His Word, the Spirit of God has given you the insight. After this if you fall off to the son of perdition, knowing who he is, there is no forgiveness. Don’t get all frustrated over this, for though the ignorant will fall for Satan, those in the know the truth will know who he is, and Satan will be an abomination to us.

theseason.org/hebrews/hebrews10.htm
 
guanophore
Quote:
Originally Posted by n2thelight
When we die in Christ we are cleansed, at the instant of death,we don’t have to go off somewhere to be cleansed.
This is consistent with Apostolic Teaching. In baptism, we are united to Christ in a death like his. We are pure. However, most people do not die immediately after their baptism, and become soiled again by sin.
That is why we have repentance,again no purgatory
Quote:
Originally Posted by n2thelight
To imply that we are punished for sins already forgiven is to call Christ a lair when I repent my sin are not even remembered by God,so how and why do I need to be cleansed of them?
I think you are confusing sin with it’s consequences. Look at the thief on the cross, for example. He made a profession of faith, and Jesus promised him paradise. But you notice Jesus did not take him when Jesus breathed HIs last. He left him there to suffer the consequences of his sins (which were forgiven). The thief hung there for many hours, suffering, and eventually had his legs broken. All this happened after he was ‘saved’. This is an example of what we call the temporal consequences of sin.
I can agree he was paying the price for his deeds,thats why he was on the cross anyway,but I bet he did’nt go to some place called purgatory.
Guilt is not the same as consequences. I will offer another example. Supposing I am irresponsible with my finances, and don’t pay my taxes. Eventually, the IRS catches up to me, and demands what I owe. I recognize that I have fallen short of God’s command to render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar’s, and I repent and ask forgiveness. God forgives me, and I start fresh. However, I still have the temporal consequences to pay. The IRS will get their pound of flesh from me,and God will not necessarily prevent that from happening, just like He did not prevent the good thief from suffering on the cross. As the thief noted "…we indeed have been condemned justly, for we are getting what we deserve for our deeds…"Luke 23:41
I understand that,but you don’t understand this,Christ wipes your slate clean,just like if someone were to come and pay that which you owe to the IRS after payment the IRS will not bother you,Christ paid the price for my sin,and upon repentence I am free from that sin,again no purgatory.
Has it occurred to you what measure of audacity is required to come into a Catholic forum, and with your vast misunderstanding and misrepresentation of the Apostolic faith to reprimand us to ‘repent’?
I call it like I see it,Im not judging,but in my opinion I feel you all are wrong,and the reason for this thread I thought was to discuss why,I feel this way and for you all to show me why I should’nt

I feel that I have done so in a respectful manor,if I have offended you in anyway,my apologies,for that is not my intent
Quote:
Originally Posted by n2thelight
Again you are missing the point,I never said there was anything wrong with praying for the dead(I don’t know what good it will do)but rather asking the dead to pray for you,thats the problem.
I agree with you. Good thing they are alive! In fact, Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life are alive with Him “forevermore”.
Matt 22:29-33
29 Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God. …‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is God not of the dead, but of the living.”
If the holy ones are not alive, how is it that Moses and Elijah were able to have a conversation with Jesus about his impending crucifixion? Do you think he was role modeling necromancy for us?
True,they are alive,in fact nobody that has ever lived is dead,and there is only one by name who is thus sentenced.
So if you want lets just say those who are no longer here,and the bottom line those that are not no longer here can’t hear your prayers anyway
Quote:
Originally Posted by n2thelight
Again Christ died that I may be forgiven,and when I die I go instantly to the Father noy purgatory
Now you are contradicting yourself, because only those who are alive can be in heaven, and if your soul is in some kind of soul sleep until the resurrection of the body…
Where is the contradiction,I said nothing about soul sleep, don’t even believe in it
 
JLongoria
N2, you like to cite things from the Bible where Christ rebukes the Pharisees for their “traditions”; yet what do you say about this:
"The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice.
St. Matthew 23:2-3
In fact, what do you have to say to that entire chapter? It seems to me that Jesus is rebuking their hypocrisy, and not what they teach.
And as Mark Shea points out, where do we find this “chair of Moses”? Where? Look in the Bible, and you’ll find it not. It comes straight from Tradition! Interesting that our Lord would rely on the “un-biblical” paradosis in order to drive home a point on such an important lecture.
Let me help you out with this verse

Matthew 23:1 “Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to His disciples,”

Jesus is now addressing everyone present, and to all those that have ears to hear and eyes to see the truths of this message.

Matthew 23:2 "Saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:”

What is the seat of Moses? Moses was the law-giver, which simply means that these scribes and Pharisees have taken over God’s law, and they are rewriting the law without the authority to do so. The tribe of Judah is getting a bad name as the scribes and Pharisees do their evil deeds under their name. However, Jesus will identify them as the Kenites, and that they claim to be of Judah, and are not. In fact, as recorded in Revelation 2:9, and 3:9; they are of the synagogue of Satan. Jesus will identify these Kenites for you in this chapter.

From the time of Ezra and Nehemiah, which is approximately four hundred and fifty years before the time of Jesus birth, the Levitical priesthood has been totally replaced by false ones. So at the time that Christ walked the earth, these Kenites were sitting in the place where the Levitical priesthood should have been sitting. The Kenites were the governing body.

In I Chronicles 2:55: “And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez [Jerusalem]; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.” These are the forefathers of the scribes of Jesus day, and they had no right being in their position as scripture lawyers of the law in the Temple. These people, the Kenites of the house of Rechab [called the Rechabites] are the offspring of Cain, from the sexual union between Eve and Satan in the garden of Eden. They are identified in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary # 7013, and # 7017.

God used these people it incriminate Israel, and show them that while they had fallen in disobedience to His law, the Kenites kept the restrictions that God had placed on this nation. This is pointed out in Jeremiah 35:6, as the prophet Jeremiah ran a test of the Kenite people, and tried to give them wine. "But they [the Kenites of Rechab] said, “We will drink no wine: for Jonadab the son of Rechab our father commanded us saying, 'Ye shall drink no wine, neither ye, nor your sons for ever:”

It is easy to get mixed up in Jeremiah 35 between the two Jeremiah’s mentioned, the key to which one was the prophet is through their parentage, for the prophet Jeremiah’s father is named in Jeremiah 1:1 as "Hilkiah, of the priests. He was a Levite. The other Jeremiah was the son of Habaziniah, of the whole house of the Rechabites. The coping of names started way back in Genesis 4, as we see that Cain copied the names of Adam’s lineage, through Seth.

The Kenite scribes and Pharisees look very religious, and they sound like they quote from the law, and the prophets, only they twist the scripture, and add to it, making it a lie.

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!”

This is a later time just before the final hours when He will go to the cross. He is looking down on the city of Jerusalem.

When you watch the mother hen looking after her little chicks, and see the care and attention she gives to them. When one gets out of line she brings that little chick right back to her, and she feeds them and cares for each one. If danger comes her wings fly out, and the mother hen goes after the enemy even at the risk of her own life.

This is the care and attention Jesus would have liked to give his people in Jerusalem; only they would not allow it. Jesus knew what was going to happen to Him, for He paid strict attention to what was written by the prophets. Jesus loved His people, and He did give His life for His people, yet Jerusalem would not have Him. They would not accept them as the Messiah.

What stopped the people from accepting Jesus as the Christ? It was the religious community. It was the priests, scribes and Pharisees who were the Kenites that forced themselves into the seat of Moses, as we read in verse two. It wasn’t the sinners that walked the street, for they followed Him, and loved Him for the healing and teaching that He gave. Like it or not, it was the religious community, and those that wore the robes of the priests.

You better be careful of anyone that wears the robe and teaches anything but the word of God, for that generation, or offspring of the serpents are still around.

Matthew 23:38 “Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”

This verse is covered by the “abomination of desolation” covered in Matthew 24:15.

Matthew 23:39 “For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord.”

Jesus speaks here of the second advent, which is at the sounding of the seventh and last trumpet. This will follow the great tribulation [deception], and the time when Satan will deceive many, as he reigns as the Antichrist. It is time to wake up, for we are living in the times when our current events are what the Scriptures are identifying as the signs of the end dives. Much of the end times prophecy is history to us today, yet the churches treat these times as a careless drunkard.

theseason.org/matthew/matthew23.htm
 
guanphore
Quote:
Originally Posted by n2thelight
Hebrews 12:1 “Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,”
This verse has nothing whatsoever to do with saints in Heaven and those on earth
Really? Who do you think are the “witnesses”. I will give you a scripture study hint. Whenever you see a “wherefore” or a “therefore”, look and see what it is there for. In this case, he is making a point based on what he has said before in chap. 11.
We are or should I say we are suppose to be the witnesses,the saints that are in Heaven have finished the race

Hebrews 12:1 “Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,”

Paul is drawing attention to the fact that there are a great number of witnesses. He describes their large group as being like a “cloud”. Paul is describing the ministry of witnessing of all the saints in comparison to a marathon race, similar to that of the Greek races of ancient Athens. Today these races have been brought back to life in the form of the Olympics. Those that claim the name of Christ are the runners in this race, and Paul is urging us in this marathon to set aside every weight, every thing that would turn us from the path of witnessing, and doing the work of the Lord.

Paul wants us to make ground fast, and win the race. Those weights that could slow us down could be many things. It could be a church that teaches false doctrine that could sidetrack your growth in the Lord for many years. It could also be many other things that you allow to come between you and our Heavenly father.
 
guanophore
It does say that, when we see Him, we shall be like HIm, for we shall see Him as he really is. How did Saul have a conversation with Samuel after he died?
What you are saying,is that we shall be God’s,and that’s bordering on blasphemy

1John 3:2 “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.”

We are the children of God. When Jesus Christ returns to earth at the sounding of the seventh and last trumpet, we shall see Jesus exactly as He is, as those that saw Him rise in the heavens during His ascension which would make His appearance about thirty three. As a young man with his pierced hands and feet that gave of Himself for all of our sins.

As part of the bride of Christ, we have a Husband that we can be proud of, and when He speaks to you tenderly, as He did in the Song of Solomon, you know of His love for His bride. This is speaking in a spiritual sense. Jesus is completely righteous, and we have the best there is, so why would you chose a fake, when the you can hold out and wait for the best, the perfect husband, Jesus Christ.

I John 3:3 “And every man that hath this hope in Him purifieth himself, even as He is pure.”

Jesus is teaching in simplicity here, You are perfect when you repent. Why? In I John 1:7; “But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin.” When we repent of our sins in Jesus name, we are cleansed from All sin, not part of it, and we receive righteousness through Christ. Directly after repentance you are perfect, you are purified. That is what this verse means when it states that you are purified, because He is pure.

He brings you to His level spiritually speaking in perfection. That is why you must ask for forgiveness when you have fallen short of God’s standards. You will sin again, but when you do, that is the time to repent again. It will cause you to be on guard every day, and to be quick in seeking forgiveness when you do fall. Keep yourself a virgin bride, spiritually speaking, avoiding the traps of the evil one when he tries to draw you in. Don’t take part in that false wedding that shall come first, when the “instead of Christ”, the Antichrist comes to earth to deceive all of mankind.

It is time to take that seal, as spoken of in Revelation 9:4; “And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.” That seal of God, is the Word of God which we are studying now. It is that Word that grants you eternal life. Satan simply can not prevent you from having that eternal life, for it is by your choice whether you allow him to deceive you or not. It is God that promised it to you, and He has the power to keep that promise, but you have to prepare yourself, in this final generation so that you will not be deceived by Satan, the “instead of Christ” [the Antichrist].

I John 3:4 “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”

Did you get that? “Sin is the transgression of the law.” Many churches teach that the law is done away with, but that is not what John nor Jesus said. That is dangerous talk. Then there are others that spiritualize this, and say that someone in Christ doesn’t chose to do anything that isn’t righteous.

Sin is the transgression, or breaking of the law. The church world today goes from some that totally disregard the law, to those that place a strict bondage of the law to where there is no freedom in Christ. However those that are the most spiritual sick are those that label things that are natural as a sin. God created man and woman, and God made man for woman, and woman for man, and God made each of them attractive to each other. The woman is God’s gift to man, and to admire the beauty of a attractive lady is not a sin. That is a natural thing in what God has created, and it is part of the plan of God.

My friend, when you become baptized and go under the water, when you come up from that water, those natural instincts that God has placed in all men and women will still be there, and that is why we study God’s Word so we can keep our emotions under control and disciplined. God’s Word sets the standards that God accepts, not some board of deacons. When you falter, repent and get back on course. As long as you live in the flesh, you will have the emotions and temptations of the flesh. Learn from God’s Word what is sin, and not sin and don’t let others put a guilt trip on you, when it is uncalled for.

It is not alright to sin. The law was given as our schoolmaster, and when Christ came to earth He did not destroy the law, but He fulfilled it. Christ was the capstone on the old, and just as it was the schoolmaster, it is still the schoolmaster. The law tells you what will get you into trouble, while you are living in the flesh. So because transgression against the law is sin, obviously the law cannot be done away with. All of God’s laws are in effect, accept those blood ordinances that are not laws. They are statutes that have to do with those ordinances. Christ’s blood fulfilled all those requirements, and in and through repentance to the Father in Jesus Christ’s name, the blood of Christ blots out the Father’s judgment of you for those sins. Christ’s blood takes the place of those blood sacrifices.

Many of the laws are warnings to the dangerous things that can happen to you when these laws are disregarded. One who turns his back to Sodomy these days, generally finds himself with a incurable disease. Even though repentance is sought for those wicked acts, the person still must pay the price for his actions in them. When a person sets out to rob another person, many times the victim has a weapon and wounds or kills that attacker. This is right according to God’s law, yet the robber is sent to the heavenly Father to account for his actions in the flesh body. What I am drawing attention to is the fact that when you break God’s laws, there is a price to pay, in most cases, even if there is repentance for that act at a later date.

Now lets review this verse; When you sin, you are breaking the law, because sin is the breaking of the laws of God. If there was no law, there would be no sin, because you simply can not transgress that law that doesn’t exist. It is only a fool that would say that we have no sin in this mixed up world today.

I John 3:5 “And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin.”

Why did Jesus Christ the Son of God come to this earth in the flesh? Our answer is right here in this verse; “to take away our sins.” Jesus paid a very heavy price for your sin, however to you it is free upon repentance.

I John 3:6 “Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him.”

If you don’t watch it, this verse can put you on quite a guilt trip. You could say, I sin all the time, every day, does that mean I don’t know Him? No, My Friend, this word for sin is the word for habitual sinning. One that just does not care for God, or any part of His laws, love or salvation. The habitual sinner could care less about the things of God, His Word, or any desire to seek after the ways of our Lord.

I John 3:7 “Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous.”

You keep people from deceiving you by staying in the Word, and placing it in your mind. Righteousness is to do those things that are right, and according to God’s Word. As long as you want to try to do that which is right, though you fall short, when you have Christ, and the Spirit of God within you, and you repent you will be righteous. The heavenly Father will accept you as righteous, for your credentials is the blood of Christ, our advocate with the Father.

I John 3:8 “He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.”

For what purpose was Jesus Christ the Son of God manifested? What was the reason for Him coming to die on the cross? “That He might destroy the works of the devil.” When is this beginning that the devil started his sinning? It is given in Ezekiel 28, where in the first earth age Satan rebelled and was sentenced to death. It is written in II Peter 3 that the world that was destroyed by the overthrow of the flood [not Noah’s flood]. We know that Satan is sentenced to die at the end of the Millennium age. When we realize that this verse covers all three earth ages, for the downfall of Satan, to the coming of the Son of God to pay the price for sin in this earth age, to the destruction of Satan, the son of perdition at the end of the Millennium age, then we can see the depth that John is teaching here.
 
Bible Baptism
By Dr. John R. Rice

CHAPTER 4 - BAPTISM DOES NOT SAVE - DOES NOT HELP SAVE

A favorite device of the Devil is to have men look to their works for their salvation instead of looking to Christ. He leads some to trust in their morality, some to depend upon lodge membership, some to depend upon confessions to priests; some he leads to trust in baptism. That is a fatal mistake. The unanimous voice of all the Scriptures is that people are saved by simple faith in Christ, without any act of righteousness, and baptism is never mentioned as a part of the plan of salvation. Baptism is an act of righteousness, for Jesus said in Matthew 3:15, “Thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness.” Titus 3:5 says that such acts of righteousness do not save us:

“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.”

Baptism is certainly a good work, but Ephesians 2:8,9 likewise says plainly that salvation is altogether a matter of God’s mercy and not of our works :

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.”

Salvation is a gift of God which is not deserved, is not bought, and cannot be paid for. No church nor preacher nor the individual saved has any right to claim credit when a soul is saved.

In fact, we are told again and again in the Bible that the man who trusts in Christ has everlasting life immediately. John 3:36 says:

“He that believeth on the Son HATH everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

“Hath” means has, present tense, in modern English. Likewise, John 5:24 says:

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation: but IS PASSED from death unto life.”

The same teaching is given in John 6:47:

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me HATH everlasting life.”

In the Bible, we find it clear that people believed first and then were baptized. According to these statements from God’s Word, they were already saved before they were baptized and any other man who trusts in Christ is saved that second, before he could possibly get to the baptismal waters. It does not take baptism to save one.

WHAT DOES “BAPTIZED FOR REMISSION OF SINS” MEAN?
In Acts 2:38, the term “for the remission of sins” is used as follows :

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

Some people think that this passage contradicts the dozens of other plain statements in the Bible that a man is saved by faith and saved immediately when he believes. But when you use the word for in this passage just as it is used so many times in every-day conversation, you will see what Peter said. A man is arrested for stealing; one is grateful for a favor; one is blamed for carelessness; one is commended for bravery. The word for here does not mean in order to or to secure remission of sins, and it is not rendered that way in any translation of the Bible we know of anywhere. The Greek word eis here translated for is sometimes translated in the Bible against, among, at, unto, upon, etc. It might properly be translated here “baptized upon the remission of your sins” or “baptized referring to, or pointing toward the remission of your sins,” or “baptized in the remission of your sins.” When one repents, he receives the remission of his sins. Then the obedient heart, following Christ in baptism, is promised the gift of the Holy Ghost, an entirely separate mutter from salvation. What Peter said was that people ought to repent and then, after their sins are forgiven, they should be baptized as evidence of that. That is exactly what people ought to be baptized for, that is, to show the remission of their sins. That Scripture, then, does not mean that people ought to be baptized in order to be saved.

jesus-is-savior.com/Books,%20Tracts%20&%20Preaching/Printed%20Books/Dr%20John%20Rice/Baptism/b_04.htm
 
Let me help you out with this verse

Matthew 23:1 “Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to His disciples,”

Jesus is now addressing everyone present, and to all those that have ears to hear and eyes to see the truths of this message.
Okay, I agree with you here. Let’s evaluate everything else to actually see what “message” Jesus is really trying to convey.
Matthew 23:2 "Saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:”
What is the seat of Moses? Moses was the law-giver, which simply means that these scribes and Pharisees have taken over God’s law, and they are rewriting the law without the authority to do so. The tribe of Judah is getting a bad name as the scribes and Pharisees do their evil deeds under their name. However, Jesus will identify them as the Kenites, and that they claim to be of Judah, and are not. In fact, as recorded in Revelation 2:9, and 3:9; they are of the synagogue of Satan. Jesus will identify these Kenites for you in this chapter.
Holy cow! Who taught you how to read out of context? You practically have a PhD in it. Read St. Matthew 23:3, as well.

“Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice”.

Jesus is saying directly that they have teaching authority! He says, “do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you”; the Lord then adds on - very simply - “do not follow their example”.

Jesus here is urging people to respect the teaching authority regardless of the people occupying that seat.
From the time of Ezra and Nehemiah, which is approximately four hundred and fifty years before the time of Jesus birth, the Levitical priesthood has been totally replaced by false ones. So at the time that Christ walked the earth, these Kenites were sitting in the place where the Levitical priesthood should have been sitting. The Kenites were the governing body.
In I Chronicles 2:55: “And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez [Jerusalem]; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.” These are the forefathers of the scribes of Jesus day, and they had no right being in their position as scripture lawyers of the law in the Temple. These people, the Kenites of the house of Rechab [called the Rechabites] are the offspring of Cain, from the sexual union between Eve and Satan in the garden of Eden. They are identified in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary # 7013, and # 7017.
Sexual union between Satan and Eve? Cain being an offspring of them, and not Adam and Eve? Wow, not exactly sure what copy of the Sacred Scriptures you’re reading, but something there is definitely out of whack.

I swiftly reject the rest of what you said in this portion, because every explaination you’ve given has been entirely anti-Biblical, not just un-Biblical. Cain’s lineage presumably died out with the Flood; Noah was directly descended from Seth, and thus none of Cain’s descendants survived the flood.

In fact, your interpretation is an entirely non-Biblical tradition I will not say I’m fond of in the least.
So are you saying Jesus blood could not purify,and again where do you get this temporal consequence sin?And thats the whole point of his thread,a man made tradition that goes against the Word.
We’re not saying that it could not do anything. We’re just not lying to ourselves in saying that it covers up our sins. Every instance of Christ’s blood “purifying” always seems to be referring to the salvation from eternal punishment. Make no mistake; people going through purgatory are not condemned to Hell - no, instead, they are being purified by the blood of Christ!

Where do we get it? From Sacred Tradition. Tradition that the Apostles, given teaching authority from Christ Himself has passed down to us.

In 1274, well before the mislead heretics of the Reformation came about, the Second Ecumenical Council of Lyons defined Purgatory for the Catholic faithful:

Those who, after Baptism lapse into sin must not be rebaptized, but obtain pardon for their sins through true penance; that if, being truly repentant, they die in charity [God’s love] before having satisfied by worthy fruits of penance for their sins of comission and omission, their souls are cleansed after death by purgatorial and purifying penalties … and that to alleviate such penalties, the acts of intercession of the living faithful benefit them, namely the sacrifices of the Mass, prayers, alms, and other works of piety…

This is where it was merely defined for Catholics, but where in fact it had been believed for ages before. What do you think of I Corinthians 3:11-15? Randy quoted it earlier, yet you have no answer for it? Surely, the self-attesting Bible would lay quick waste to Purgatory should it not be a real thing.

Yet it doesn’t. In fact, it overwhelmingly supports the idea of it.
 
Too bad- he has read but he has not understood. Some stuff- same attempt to ‘convert’ us unchristian catholics from our wicked ways. Catholics were protecting, canonizing,interpreting ,clarifying and defining Christianity way before Martin Luther was in diapers! Where does the belief in the Triune Godhead come from- look hard - it’s implied but not explicit- the word Trinity does not exist in the Bible. Do you realize that concepts like Christ’s Divinity- the Hypostatic Union- had to be fought over because of the lack explicit scriptural references? Today you could-by using scripture- make a good case against all those doctrines we hold as Christians- that defines Christianity itself. What did they rely on? Oral Tradition- Sacred Tradition. .The titles given to the Gospels themselves come from oral not written tradition. If the Gospels were written anonymously how do we know who wrote each one? If you accept tradition for somethings why not others? Tradition is only good if you believe in it and bad if you don’t? Please give me some answer that isn’t taken from the"Convert a Catholic" manual. It would really be refreshing for a change.I’ve been hearing the standard blah ,blah ,blah for a loooong time. Be inventive, be original- use something I’ve never heard before-- it would be nice for a change…But you can’t it is really pretty standard tired stuff. You quote well but there is no depth- quotes out of context are quite useless and should only be used on the gullible.quoting without context or knowledge is like trying to walk with one leg- it ain’t easy. Good luck prostelatizing 😃
 
Uh…N2thelight…are you still here?
Hmmm…perhaps the conversion of Catholics wasn’t as easy as he thought…
Yes Im still here,I did not come here to convert anyone

Here’s how it went,I am a member of another forum,we we are discusing this topic,and 1 of the members made this comment
turnorburn on Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:19 am
I wonder how long I would last if I joined a catholic forum, before you start laughing how long would you say, an hour a day a week perhaps but how long.
To which another member replied
Catholic Crusader on Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:24 am
turnorburn wrote:
I wonder how long I would last if I joined a catholic forum, before you start laughing how long would you say, an hour a day a week perhaps but how long.
Go find out right here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/
Actually, they are more tolerant of other views than this site is of Catholic views
So being that I really did want to discuss this with a Catholic forum,I decided to take him up myself,so here I am.

And it is still my opinion that you all(Catholics)are wrong
 
JLongoria
In 1274, well before the mislead heretics of the Reformation came about, the Second Ecumenical Council of Lyons defined Purgatory for the Catholic faithful:
Those who, after Baptism lapse into sin must not be rebaptized, but obtain pardon for their sins through true penance; that if, being truly repentant, they die in charity [God’s love] before having satisfied by worthy fruits of penance for their sins of comission and omission, their souls are cleansed after death by purgatorial and purifying penalties … and that to alleviate such penalties, the acts of intercession of the living faithful benefit them, namely the sacrifices of the Mass, prayers, alms, and other works of piety…
This is where it was merely defined for Catholics, but where in fact it had been believed for ages before. What do you think of I Corinthians 3:11-15? Randy quoted it earlier, yet you have no answer for it? Surely, the self-attesting Bible would lay quick waste to Purgatory should it not be a real thing.
Yet it doesn’t. In fact, it overwhelmingly supports the idea of it.
Will address that council thing next post,but as far as 1corinth
11-15 its not talking about some purgatory,its talking about the only thing you can take with you to heaven,and that is your works

I Corinthians 3:11 “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

Jesus Christ is the only foundation that you can build on, and have it eternal. Everything on the face of this earth that you can construct with hands is very temporary, for the construction that we are talking about is your spiritual house, which is your soul. The foundation for that house is Jesus Christ Himself.

I Corinthians 3:12 “Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;”

When you build any structure, one of the important things to consider is that structures ability to withstand fire. Our God is a consuming fire, and every one of these materials will be destroyed under the heat of God’s fire. As gold or silver are heated under fire each of these are purified and gets better as the heat is turned up. However we know that wood, hay and stubble are turned to ashes when as the same flames devour them.

If you are going to build your life on Jesus Christ, it had better be genuine, and from your heart. Though we all sin and fall short of God’s standard from time to time, however at repentance for those sins God gives us new life.

I Corinthians 3:13 “Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.”

We are talking about “works” here, and every man’s works are going to be made known for the intentions that those works were given. When you do the work of God, and diligently seek to please Him in all that you do, God will give you credit for those works. Friend, it is God only that gives the increase, however we plant the seeds and prepare the seeds so that the Holy Spirit can do the work and convict that man of his sin. When you teach God’s word to the point that others come to the understanding of God’s love for them, the conviction comes only by the drawing of the Sprit of God. You may have the gift of teaching or preaching, but the test as to your ability to use your gifts is whether that person remains in the Word.

Have you taught a new babe in Christ to use the Word enough to grow in the Word to where have the spiritual strength to stand against the spiritual battles that come their way? Are they strong in the Lord, or will the first wind of false doctrine blow them away? The way that they have built their spiritual house will be tested by fire and God is that consuming fire that will test their will to seek after the truth. Don’t be to hasty to find glory in your work, for what ever glory there is, is not for you, but to God for He is the one that gives the increase. Just count yourself worthy to have the privilege to serve Him in whatever capacity that He sees fit to place you in.

I Corinthians 3:14 “If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.”

Here again the documentation is Revelation 14:13, which states that the only thing that you can take with you at death is the works of your righteous acts. “Righteous acts” are what you do for the glory of God and the body of Christ. This is Christ telling John to write to those living in this earth age of the flesh and informing us that we will be well rewarded for the righteous works that are done for the Lord. Your works is the only thing that you have that brings you any rewards.

I Corinthians 3:15 “If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”

The works that you do in this earth age for yourself should be for that which is necessary to sustain you and your family in this life. Riches are not a sin, but ill-gotten gains are sin. God blesses those that do things His way, and those blessings that God gives in this life are to be enjoyed. There is no sin in being rich when when you know that they come from God.

If your works are for vain glory, then when God tests those works they will burn just like wood and stubble in a fire. Though you may lose your works because they were given to boast your own pride, even though your souls will be snatched from the fire and you can make it into eternity. What this means is that you are going to be ashamed of your works when you stand before the Father on that day of judgment. You simply can’t out give God, and just like we like to reward our earthly children for doing well, God finds pleasure in rewarding those that do well for Him.
 
Yes Im still here,I did not come here to convert anyone

Here’s how it went,I am a member of another forum,we we are discusing this topic,and 1 of the members made this comment

To which another member replied

So being that I really did want to discuss this with a Catholic forum,I decided to take him up myself,so here I am.

And it is still my opinion that you all(Catholics)are wrong
The story of how you got here is interesting.
I’m glad you are sticking around. 👍

Just of curiousity, Have you been looking around at other threads here? I’m sure you would find more places to contribute.

The topic of this thread was most interesting in the beginning, and I believe that there were a number of good replies to your question of how we beliive things that are not explicitly spelled out in the Bible. However what has happened is that the thread has morphed (not an unusual occurance by any means) from giving you examples of things not explicitly in the Bible into your attacking these things because they “Aren’t biblical”.

Basically this is called a “Bait and Switch” tactic. I do NOT think that this was your intention, so please don’t be upset by my comment. It is natural that you should have problems with these beliefs, but you have to remember that this is precisely what you asked for. Beliefs not in the Bible and how can we be sure that Jesus taught them.

The short answer to this is, “because His Church, through the Magisterium, has declared it so.” The underlying basis for this belief is as follows:
  1. Jesus founded a Church.
  2. This Church was founded on 12 people headed by Peter.
  3. Jesus Gave Peter and the Apostles the authority to Bind and Loose on Earth
  4. Jesus never wrote a Book, nor did He promise a Book.
  5. Jesus Promised that He would be with this Church for ALL time.
  6. Jesus Promised to Send the Holy Spirit to Protect and Guide His Church Leaders.
  7. This Church, through consistant and tracable apostolic succession, can be shown to be the Catholic Church.
  8. This Church, through consistant teachings on issues of faith and morals, can be shown to be the Catholic Church.
  9. This Church, under the guidance and protection of the Holy spirit, gathered, codified, distributed, copied, protected, defended and ditributed the Holy Bible as a foundation and guide for the teaching of the faithful.
  10. This Church, under the protection and guidance of the Spirit, and through the good offices of the Magisterium, have interpreted, studied and taught the Truth of the faith as handed down from Christ, through the Apostles and all of the Bishops to this day.
This, then is a concise set of reasons why we believe what the Church teaches. This the authority which we trace in unbroken line back to our Lord Himself.

Now you state above that “in your opinion” we are wrong.
I must ask you then, upon what authority you hold that “opinion”. Ours is based on the 2000 year old Church Founded By Christ Himself.
Can you honestly compare your opinion to 2000 years of Spirit Guided Study by Holy and Learned men who worked, guided and wrote for God’s Holy Church?

Peace
James
 
mercygate;3842238]Why do you say that? Perhaps you missed something?

Start here for Purgatory.
I have to go with the objector here,
OBJECTOR: You said we need to interpret verses of the Bible in context, but you left out verse 13: “Each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.” You see it speaks about “the Day.” That means the Day of Judgment, not some intermediate state of purgatory.
CATHOLIC: Of course we don’t really know what day Paul is talking about, so it would be arbitrary to limit it to the final Day of Judgment. I take it that we both believe in a personal judgment after death and a general judgment at the end of history.
The Roman Catholic Church claims to have the fullness of truth but I think that this guy says it all “Of course we don’t really know what day Paul is talking about”,

And here for praying to Saints.

Hi All
This is taken right from the link that you pointed us to, the words that are bold actually disprove you argument.
The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.
This is obviously NOT speaking of Saints since they already lead a quiet and peaceable life.
This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth"
I could be wrong but I think that the Saints are already saved and know the truth.
 
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