SPLIT: What did Christ teach that wasn't written,and if it wasn't written how can you be sure He taught it?

[LittleDeb]

Scripture declares that Mary had other children,yet you claim they were cousins

Scripture records the parents of the people mentioned in that passage. Again, this is another example of misreading of Scripture. We read in the Gospel of John that Jesus gave his mother over to St. John to care for her. If Jesus had siblings this would have been not only unnecessary under Jewish law, but insulting to the siblings as well.

The passage you say “declares Mary had other children” does nothing of the sort. You have been taught to read it that way. Based on the very clear passage in John, your understanding is an incorrect one.

 

[n2thelight]

LittleDeb

Scripture records the parents of the people mentioned in that passage. Again, this is another example of misreading of Scripture. We read in the Gospel of John that Jesus gave his mother over to St. John to care for her. If Jesus had siblings this would have been not only unnecessary under Jewish law, but insulting to the siblings as well.

The passage you say “declares Mary had other children” does nothing of the sort. You have been taught to read it that way. Based on the very clear passage in John, your understanding is an incorrect one.

Matt 13:53-58
53 And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed thence.
54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief. (KJV)

Matt 12:46
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. (KJV)

Gal 1:19
19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother. (KJV)

Jude 1:1
1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called (KJV)

How can these scriptures mean anything other thanwhat they say?

And this one leaves no doubt

Matthew 1:25 “And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn Son: and he called His name JESUS.”

You can twist this anyway you want,but I bet a 5 year old could see the truth

 

[Mannyfit75]

Mary was not ever virgin

Are you serious? Did not Issiah 7:14 stated that the VIRGIN shall birth to a child? She is a virgin before, during and after the birth of her only son.

A priest once said that if his CDs, and DVD lecture on the Catechism were put in a time capsule, and 2,000 yrs later someone dig them up and watched. They caught the opening statement.

“Greetings my brother and sisters. It amazes me how many of you came. hundreds and thousands even.”

One would misinterpret this as that the priest had hundreds or even thousands of brothers and sisters. When you read Scripture you must take into account the intend, the time, and the culture. You can’t take everything out of context.

The belief that Mary is not a virgin is false doctrine. You and your Protestants came up with this new doctrine based on your false doctrine of Sola Scriptura…

On an added note, only Protestants reject the doctrine that Mary is ever-virgin.

Only two Christian groups acknowledges it. The Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church. It is no surprise that Protestants which lacks Apostolic Succession denies this essential Christian belief.

 

[LittleDeb]

Matt 13:53-58
53 And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed thence.
54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief. (KJV)

Matt 12:46
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. (KJV)

Gal 1:19
19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother. (KJV)

Jude 1:1
1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called (KJV)

How can these scriptures mean anything other thanwhat they say?

And this one leaves no doubt

Matthew 1:25 “And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn Son: and he called His name JESUS.”

You can twist this anyway you want,but I bet a 5 year old could see the truth

I know you really want this to be true. Your entire premise lies on your personal interpretation of your personal translation of Scripture. The first Scriptures you note are the ones that I said have the parents identified in other passages. His own countrymen are fighting to show His humanity. They are emphasizing His human mother (and father I might add.) I will bring out the proof of that if needed, but you are still dodging so much.

**Why would Jesus give his mother to John if he had this plethora of siblings that you claim?
**
Matthew 1:25…talk about reading out of context! That is to show that she was a virgin at the time of Jesus birth. It was to show that Joseph did not have relations before Jesus’ birth. To prove what you want it to prove, it would have to say, “And then after her healing from childbirth she and Joseph had relations.”

It doesn’t say that. It merely says “until.” Scripture also has the Lord saying, “I will be with you until the end of time.” Does that mean he won’t be with us after the end of time? Loaded word “until.” “First-born” also does not mean what you want it to mean…I have a “first-born” son too. I do not, however, have a second-born son.

Mary has always been considered an ever-virgin. It was not even questioned for 1800 years! The reformers all held that she was an ever-virgin. Your interpretation is very novel and very far removed from the origins of Scripture.

 

[n2thelight]

Why is it important that you all believe Mary was ever virgin?
Also, why did she even get married,I mean did she not know what happens when people get married.
I guess her husband remained a virgin the rest of his life also.

 

[cfrancis]

Matthew, the author of this Gospel, and one of the twelve Disciples, was named Levi before Jesus called him to Discipleship in [Lk 5:27. Mk 2:14, Mt 9:9]. The story of Matthew’s call only appears in three out of the four Gospels. In Luke and Mark’s Gospels, Matthew is called Levi at the time of his call; but in the Gospel of Matthew, the name Levi is not used. There is a good reason for this apparent inconsistency: Luke and Mark were not among the twelve Disciples and were not present to know Matthew before his name was changed from Levi.

Matthew was writing of himself when he wrote of his call to Discipleship [Mt 9:9] and simply referred to himself by his present name (which he had been called by for 13-18 years at the time of this writing). Luke and Mark did not necessarily know that Matthew was Levi when they were divinely inspired to write of events that they themselves were not present to observe. Had St. John wrote of this event in his Gospel he would have no doubt cleared this matter up for us, as John was also one of the twelve Disciples and was present in those days. It is not a remarkable thing that Levi’s name was changed to Matthew, for it was also done with Simon changed to Peter [Mt 10:2], and Saul changed to Paul [Acts 13:9].

Thank you for your answer.

Do you have any Scriptural basis for your answer? I note you have Scriptue references in your answer, but none of them deal with authorship.

Do you have any Scripture that supports your belief that the Gospel of Matthew is inspired and belongs in the NT canon?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Why is it important that you all believe Mary was ever virgin?
Also, why did she even get married,I mean did she not know what happens when people get married.
I guess her husband remained a virgin the rest of his life also.

Catholics really know how to please God. they defend the honor of His mother.

i doubt very much if your mother had her honor being questioned and she was innocent of it, i would assume you would get involved and fiercely defend her honor. wouldnt you?

how much more will Jesus defend His mother.

Joseph and Mary lived in Egypt with Jesus, i dont for how long, but one day God said to them pick up the child and go back to Israel. notice God did not say pick up your children and go back.

Peace.

 

[SD_Catholic]

Why is it important that you all believe Mary was ever virgin?
Also, why did she even get married,I mean did she not know what happens when people get married.
I guess her husband remained a virgin the rest of his life also.

• because it’s true.
• so she would not be stoned to death for becoming pregnant with Jesus and for Jesus to have the proper lineage to be king.
• well if you believe in a 2nd chance at virginity… but I would call it making a vow of chastity for the rest of his life… but yes he did refrain for the rest of his life… you do realize he was probably much older than Mary right?

 

[SD_Catholic]

You can twist this anyway you want,but I bet a 5 year old could see the truth

Oh no… not again… but you’re saying for over 1500 years no ECF or Christian or Luther or Calvin was to the mental capacity of a 5 year old… they had a game called “are you smarter than a 5 year old?”… and everyone lost

SD

 

[vern_humphrey]

OK, I take your point of view, if you take mine. For I have seen, all my Protestant life which has now been given over to the Catholic Church, that mainstream Protestant ministers pray *with *their congregations, and though they may lead in prayer, they do not ask the congregation to do any interceding.

Then why do they pray for those who sick or in difficulties? When you ask God to help, have mercy on, or bless someone else, you are interceding for that person. That is intercessory prayer.

 

[mlchance]

The word “cousin” is clearly found in the scripture,so please don’t say this means that

Why clutter up the thread with the truth?

It’s so ovious Mary had sex,a child could read these verses and know the truth

Name the Virgin Mary’s other children.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Why is it important that you all believe Mary was ever virgin?

Why is it important to you to believe that she was not virgin?

Also, why did she even get married,I mean did she not know what happens when people get married.
I guess her husband remained a virgin the rest of his life also.

She married because that is the proper status for a woman about to have a child. Joseph, who was much older, had children by an earlier wife.

Let me point out that people who knew her personally, such as Matthew and Luke, say uneuivocably that she was ever virgin.

 

[SD_Catholic]

The word “cousin” is clearly found in the scripture,so please don’t say this means that

Not that this will help but perhaps a little…

The following is taken from “This Rock” magazine.

*“The Catholic position” does not hold that when the Bible refers to the brethren of Christ that they are his cousins. The Church holds only that Mary did not have any other children besides Christ. Who the brethren were is debatable-they might have been cousins (this is the most common view today), they might have been stepbrothers via Joseph (this was the common view before St. Jerome), or they might have been adoptive children.

The premise of the argument-that the New Testament says Elizabeth is Mary’s cousin-is wrong. The translation being quoted does not accurately reflect the Greek.

The New Testament does not say that Elizabeth is Mary’s cousin, the Greek word for which is anepsios. The word used in Luke 1:36 to describe Elizabeth is suggenes (pronounced su-gen-ace), which simply means kinswoman or relative. It tells us nothing about her exact relation within the extended family. All we can tell from the word suggenes is that Elizabeth was some kind of female relative of Mary’s. But whether she was an aunt, a cousin, or a more distant relation cannot be determined from the word.

In a few places the New Testament does use anepsios, but this does little to argue that the brethren of the Lord were sons of Mary. Arguments from word choice (i.e., “Why this word instead of this other word?”) are rarely decisive. New Testament word choice is especially difficult to build arguments from since it involves a mixture of Jewish and non-Jewish word preferences. The brethren of the Lord may have been brethren of a different kind (e.g., adoptive brothers or stepbrothers) without being half-brothers through Mary.*

 

[NotWorthy]

Scripture declares that Mary had other children,yet you claim they were cousins

Then, again, why was Mary only referred to as “The Mother of Jesus”. In John’s Gospel at the wedding in Cana is says, “and the mother of Jesus was there.” Everywhere else she is referred to as the Mother of only Jesus. This is inconsistent with the rest of the Gospels.

 

[NotWorthy]

Oh no… not again… but you’re saying for over 1500 years no ECF or Christian or Luther or Calvin was to the mental capacity of a 5 year old… they had a game called “are you smarter than a 5 year old?”… and everyone lost

SD

:tsktsk: Thanks a lot, pal! Now I’ll have that song playing in my head for the rest of the day. I like the tune, but after about the 200th time, it gets kind of old!

 

[vern_humphrey]

By the way, the word “cousin” is not found in scripture – except in translation. There is no word for “cousin” in Aramaic, and all levels of kinship are covered under the words for “brother” and “sister.”

25 Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala.

John, 19, 25

The term “sister” is used here to show that Mary the wife of Clopas was a kinswoman of Mary, the mother of Jesus.

Unless of course, there were two sisters in the same family named Mary? That must have been confusing!

 

[guanophore]

Scripture declares that Mary had other children,yet you claim they were cousins

n2thelight, did it ever occur to you that those who wrote the passages knew what they meant better than you might? Or perhaps you have become so separated from the Apostolic Tradition that it does not enter your mind that the Church understood these writings differently for 2000 years? Your interpretation is only about 100 years old, and stems from the modern American Fundamentalist movement.

If you are really open to learning the Catholic Answers, here is a good source for why we believe as we do:

catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp

catholic.com/library/Brethren_of_the_Lord.asp

Matt 13:53-58
53 And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed thence.
54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief. (KJV)

Matt 12:46
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. (KJV)

Gal 1:19
19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother. (KJV)

Jude 1:1
1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called (KJV)

How can these scriptures mean anything other than what they say?

And this one leaves no doubt

Matthew 1:25 “And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn Son: and he called His name JESUS.”

You can twist this anyway you want,but I bet a 5 year old could see the truth

It is good that you are asking “how can these scriptures mean anything other than what they say?”

If you are reallly honest with this question, then you will come to know that you are interpreting these verses through your own experience and learning (or lack therof). A greater knowledge of your spiritual family history will greatly improve your ability to understand what the verses really say. For example, you have been asked above about the gospel of Matthew, which you cite here as “proof” that Jesus had womb siblings. However, you may not realize that this Gospel was originallly written in Aramaic, which has no word for “cousin” or “stepbrother”.

You are also probably unaware that, in the Eastern Churches, where the Holy Family lived and died, Joseph was said to be an older man with many children when he took Mary into his home. The Eastern tradition has James, the son of Joseph, travelling with the Holy Family when they escaped into Egypt.

http://northernway.org/ImagesforBlog/GerasimosPortraitHolyFamilyPlusJames.jpg

 

[guanophore]

Why is it important that you all believe Mary was ever virgin?

This is an excellent question, very germaine to the OP, and I thank you for asking it.

The fact that Mary had no other children is part of the Gospel that has been handed down to us through Sacred Tradition. It is just as important for us to preserve this part of the Divine Deposit of Faith as it is the Holy Scriptures. For Catholics, these two sources of God’s Revelation are equal.

We received this instruction from the Apostles:

2 Thess 2:14-15
" So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter."

We were instructed to do this:

“…what you have heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will be able to teach others as well.”
2 Tim 2:2

These traditions, called the “paradosis” (that Sacred Teaching which is handed down from one generation to the next) are what formed the content of the New Testament. If we cannot trust the Truth of it, then we cannot trust anything in the NT.

Also, why did she even get married,I mean did she not know what happens when people get married. I guess her husband remained a virgin the rest of his life also.

This is also an excellent question,and asking it seems to indicate that you are, indeed, open minded to learn more about you own spiritual family history.

2000 years ago a teenage girl/young woman was only on her own if she was a prostitute or a slave. Otherwise, she was cared for by her father or brothers until she was given in marriage. In addition, a young woman who became pregnant out of wedlock was to be stoned to death. Only her husband would have been able to prevent this from happening. Mary was given into the care of Joseph for her protection and safekeeping.

Here is a passage from the Protoevangelium of James. This reflects the Sacred Tradition that was handed on since the time of the Apostles:

Protoevangelium of James

“And behold, an angel of the Lord stood by [St. Anne], saying, ‘Anne! Anne! The Lord has heard your prayer, and you shall conceive and shall bring forth, and your seed shall be spoken of in all the world.’ And Anne said, ‘As the Lord my God lives, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God, and it shall minister to him in the holy things all the days of its life.’ . . . And [from the time she was three] Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there” (Protoevangelium of James 4, 7 [A.D. 120]).

“And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of priests, saying, ‘Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, lest perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord?’ And they said to the high priest, ‘You stand by the altar of the Lord; go in and pray concerning her, and whatever the Lord shall manifest to you, that also will we do.’ . . . [A]nd he prayed concerning her, and behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him saying, ‘Zechariah! Zechariah! Go out and assemble the widowers of the people and let them bring each his rod, and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. . . . And Joseph [was chosen]. . . . And the priest said to Joseph, ‘You have been chosen by lot to take into your keeping the Virgin of the Lord.’ But Joseph refused, saying, ‘I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl’” (ibid., 8–9).

“And Annas the scribe came to him [Joseph] . . . and saw that Mary was with child. And he ran away to the priest and said to him, ‘Joseph, whom you did vouch for, has committed a grievous crime.’ And the priest said, ‘How so?’ And he said, ‘He has defiled the virgin whom he received out of the temple of the Lord and has married her by stealth’” (ibid., 15).

“And the priest said, ‘Mary, why have you done this? And why have you brought your soul low and forgotten the Lord your God?’ . . . And she wept bitterly saying, ‘As the Lord my God lives, I am pure before him, and know not man’” (ibid.).

 

[guanophore]

Then, again, why was Mary only referred to as “The Mother of Jesus”. In John’s Gospel at the wedding in Cana is says, “and the mother of Jesus was there.” Everywhere else she is referred to as the Mother of only Jesus. This is inconsistent with the rest of the Gospels.

Could it be that John, having been given the care of her, knew her better than anyone else alive, and knew that she was only the mother of Jesus, and no one else? :banghead:

By the way, the word “cousin” is not found in scripture – except in translation. There is no word for “cousin” in Aramaic, and all levels of kinship are covered under the words for “brother” and “sister.”

The term “sister” is used here to show that Mary the wife of Clopas was a kinswoman of Mary, the mother of Jesus.

Unless of course, there were two sisters in the same family named Mary? That must have been confusing!

Mary may have been the sister of Joseph, or another near relative of his. She was married to Clopas (Alphaeus), who may have been a brother or other near relative of Joseph. It seems clear that kids all grew up together. I wonder of Clopas was a brother of Mary?

“Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?” Mark 6:3

“Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome.” Mark 15:40-41

Mark 15:47
"Mary the mother of Joses saw where the body was laid. "

Mary, the wife of Clopas, is the mother of James, Joses, Judas, Simon, Salome and at least one other sister.

This James, the son of Alphaeus, later became the bishop of Jerusalem. So, in answer to 2tolight’s question, this rendering presents at least two different ways the scripture can be read in it’s “plain meaning”.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Why is it important that you all believe Mary was ever virgin?

Because it is true, and we retain the knowledge of the truth.

Also, why did she even get married,I mean did she not know what happens when people get married.

She knew…see below.

I guess her husband remained a virgin the rest of his life also.

No, Joseph was most likely a widower who agreed to take Mary into his home for her protection. He remained celibate for the rest of his life.

Mary’s Vow of Perpetual Virginity in Light of Numbers 30

Many people question whether Mary remained a virgin all of her life, and they dispute the idea that Mary had taken a vow of consecration to God. However, the Law of Moses contained specific instructions for both men and women who had made vows to the Lord. Let’s take a look:

Numbers 30:1-16
1 Moses said to the heads of the tribes of Israel: "This is what the LORD commands: 2 When a man makes a vow to the LORD or takes an oath to obligate himself by a pledge, he must not break his word but must do everything he said.

3 "When a young woman still living in her father’s house makes a vow to the LORD or obligates herself by a pledge 4 and her father hears about her vow or pledge but says nothing to her, then all her vows and every pledge by which she obligated herself will stand. 5 But if her father forbids her when he hears about it, none of her vows or the pledges by which she obligated herself will stand; the LORD will release her because her father has forbidden her.

6 "If she marries after she makes a vow or after her lips utter a rash promise by which she obligates herself 7 and her husband hears about it but says nothing to her, then her vows or the pledges by which she obligated herself will stand. 8 But if her husband forbids her when he hears about it, he nullifies the vow that obligates her or the rash promise by which she obligates herself, and the LORD will release her.

9 "Any vow or obligation taken by a widow or divorced woman will be binding on her.

10 “If a woman living with her husband makes a vow or obligates herself by a pledge under oath 11 and her husband hears about it but says nothing to her and does not forbid her, then all her vows or the pledges by which she obligated herself will stand. 12 But if her husband nullifies them when he hears about them, then none of the vows or pledges that came from her lips will stand. Her husband has nullified them, and the LORD will release her. 13 Her husband may confirm or nullify any vow she makes or any sworn pledge to deny herself. 14 But if her husband says nothing to her about it from day to day, then he confirms all her vows or the pledges binding on her. He confirms them by saying nothing to her when he hears about them. 15 If, however, he nullifies them some time after he hears about them, then he is responsible for her guilt.”

16 These are the regulations the LORD gave Moses concerning relationships between a man and his wife, and between a father and his young daughter still living in his house.

From this passage, we can see that the Law of Moses contained instructions for determining which vows were to be honored and which could be nullified by the parents or husband of a woman. While this passage does not provide any evidence that Mary had taken a vow of chastity, it does demonstrate that vows to God did occur in ancient Jewish society and that they were to be taken very seriously.

Concerning the Annunciation, we read the following exchange between the angel Gabriel and Mary:

Luke 1:31-34
31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end." 34"How will this be," Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”

At the time of this conversation, Mary was betrothed to Joseph. Under Jewish law, they were already married but not yet living under one roof. If she had taken no vow of perpetual virginity, she would soon be engaging in normal marital relations with the likelihood of conception in the very near future. In this case, her question, “How will this be since I am a virgin?” makes no sense. If her virginity was only temporary, she knew that pregnancy would occur naturally soon enough.

On the other hand, if Mary had made a vow of perpetual virginity to the Lord, then her question makes much more sense. “How will this be since I am a virgin?” indicates that Mary questioned how this conception could occur since she had no plans to engage in marital relations because she was a virgin – a consecrated virgin by means of a vow before the Lord. Since Mary obviously understood how babies are made, she asked the angel how she could conceive without violating her oath to God. The angel responded that she would be overshadowed by the power of the Most High.

In preparing for the Incarnation, God performed two miracles: He preserved the young virgin’s womb during conception, and He opened the barren womb of the older woman, Elizabeth. “For nothing is impossible with God.” (Luke 1:37)