SPLIT: What did Christ teach that wasn't written,and if it wasn't written how can you be sure He taught it?

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Randy Carson
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I guess her husband remained a virgin the rest of his life also.
No, Joseph was most likely a widower who agreed to take Mary into his home for her protection. He remained celibate for the rest of his life.
Can’t be true because they were engaged to be married before she knew she would bare Jesus

Matthew 1:18 “Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: when as His mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.”

Espoused
  1. to woo her and ask her in marriage
  2. to be promised in marriage, be betrothed
 
Can’t be true because they were engaged to be married before she knew she would bare Jesus

Matthew 1:18 “Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: when as His mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.”

Espoused
  1. to woo her and ask her in marriage
  2. to be promised in marriage, be betrothed
Catholic tradition says that Mary was a consecrated virgin to the Temple. Joseph was a widower. When Mary reached “of age”, the Temple priests selected Joseph among several others to wed Mary to protect her. Mary would still be under obligation of her oath of celibacy, Joseph being fully aware of this.

This is one of the reasons Mary says to Gabriel, “But how can this happen, for I do not know man?”. Think about it, N2, if Mary had heard the prophecy, and she intended to have relations with her future husband, Joseph, wouldn’t she assume that this is how the Messiah is going to be born? But instead she asks, “But how can this be?” She asked this because she knew she couldn’t break her vow before God.

Although it’s considered Apochrypha, the Proto-Evangelium of James (circa 150ad) is a good read on this subject. Even though it’s not considered inspired, it does reveal Catholic tradition and belief in the early to mid 2nd century.
 
n2thelight,
This might help. From what you have posted so far on this forum, you have no clue as to what we as Catholic’s believe. And it appears all your research has come from anti-Catholic websites/sources. Here is the link to the CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. This is what we Catholic’s believe.

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

Since your Bible does not have all the books. Here is the link to the complete Bible so you can follow along with the CCC.

drbo.org/

In Christ,
Stephen
 
2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.

This is complete foolishness,nowhere in scripture Im I told to pray to anyone but God
 
Can’t be true because they were engaged to be married before she knew she would bare Jesus

Matthew 1:18 “Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: when as His mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.”

Espoused
  1. to woo her and ask her in marriage
  2. to be promised in marriage, be betrothed
Early Christian writings suggest that Mary had taken a vow to remain a virgin for life. This is supported by the fact that the law of Moses contains specific instructions concerning the vows of women (cf. Numbers 30).

"Why is she betrothed to Joseph if she made a vow of virginity?"

Consecrated virginity was not common among first century Jews, but it did exist. According to some early Christian documents, such as the *Protoevangelium of James *(written around A.D. 120), Mary was a consecrated virgin. As such, when she reached puberty, her monthly cycle would render her ceremonially unclean and thus unable to dwell in the temple without defiling it under the Mosaic Law. At this time, she would be entrusted to a male guardian. However, since it was forbidden for a man to live with a woman he was not married or related to, the virgin would be wed to the guardian, and they would have no marital relations.
 
2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.

This is complete foolishness,nowhere in scripture Im I told to pray to anyone but God
Nowhere in scripture are you prohibited from praying to anyone but God, either. You are prohibited from worshipping anyone but God, but it’s not a sin to speak to others in heaven. Can the saints in heaven hear your prayers and intercede for you? You bet! Here is what the Word of God says:

The Saints Can Hear Our Prayers Proved From Scripture

1. Jesus teaches from the Old Testament

“Have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!” (Mark 12:26-27)

In this teaching, Jesus tells us plainly that the Father is the God of the living.

2. Speaking with the “Dead” - Jesus teaches by parable
"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”(Luke 16:19-31)

In this parable, Jesus has two of the “dead” characters in his story talking with one another, and one of the “dead” men intercedes on behalf of his living relatives.

3. Speaking with the “Dead” - Jesus teaches by personal example
“After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.” (Matthew 17:1-3)

At the transfiguration, Jesus was talking with two “dead” people, Moses and Elijah. They’re actually alive, though.

4. Speaking to the dead – Peter teaches by example
Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up. He took her by the hand and helped her to her feet. Then he called the believers and the widows and presented her to them alive. (Acts 9:40-41)

5. Those in Heaven Hear Our Prayers - John teaches through prophetic revelation
“He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Revelation 5:7-8)

The 24 elders in heaven are men, and notice that they each have a golden bowl full of the prayers of the saints. That’s us since we’re all saints! So, how did they get hold of our prayers in order to offer them to God?

“Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne.” (Revelation 8:3)

Here, an angel also offers our prayers along with incense.
 
Can’t be true because they were engaged to be married before she knew she would bare Jesus

Matthew 1:18 “Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: when as His mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.”

Espoused
  1. to woo her and ask her in marriage
  2. to be promised in marriage, be betrothed
Mary was given to Joseph for safekeeping, and so that Jesus would have a guardian.

What would happen if you had to accept that the Apostles taught something different than you thought?
2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.

This is complete foolishness,nowhere in scripture Im I told to pray to anyone but God
Good to see you reading the catechism, instead of those anti-Catholic websites. 👍

At least you will be taking issue with what we actually believe, instead of what other people erroneously think.

To “pray” in this context just means to ask. Scripture is full of examples of people asking others for prayers. Catholics don’t stop asking for prayer of prayer warriors after they pass from this life. On the contrary, we believe they are the most powerful prayer warriors, not being hindered any longer by the sin nature.
 
2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.

This is complete foolishness,nowhere in scripture Im I told to pray to anyone but God
I see… it’s time to take another track, eh? 😉
 
2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.

This is complete foolishness,nowhere in scripture Im I told to pray to anyone but God
  1. Your Scripture is incomplete. Macabees tells us that it is helpful to pray for the dead, and assist them in Purgatory.
  2. Pray = communicate. Praying to someone is having a conversation with them. It doesn’t necessarily mean worship. Non Catholics generally assume the word pray means worship. It doesn’t.
  3. Who says it has to be in Scripture? God’s Church operates with His authority.
 
2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.

This is complete foolishness,nowhere in scripture Im I told to pray to anyone but God
The word “pray” in the Greek is “to ask”. This idea had exited until Shakespearean English, take the saying “Pray thee, pass the salt”. Modern Protestants have changed the meaning of prayer to be tallking to God. So by definition, we cannot pray to Mary, since prayer is talking to God. When we Catholic talk about praying to Mary, we are using to original meaning of the word of “to ask”.

True, nowhere does the Bible say that we should ask Mary to pray for us. But neither does the Bible anywhere tells us that we should ask other Christians to pray for us. The Bible tells us to pray for each other, but nowhere does it tell us to asks others to pray for us. And yet, I am sure, you have asked others to pray for you, even though the Bible never told you to do that. Of course, it is implied that we ask others to pray for us, since we would not be able to know what to pray for about others if others did not tell us.

So since we are all to pray for each other, it is implied that we ask each other to pray for us. So since we ask each other to pray for us, why would we not a also ask the mother of Jesus to pray for us. I know your objection, that she is dead, so we should ask the dead to pray for us. These would be my responses.
  1. We Catholics believe that Mary is not dead. We believe that Mary was assumed bodily into heaven.
  2. Nowhere in the Bible does it tell us that we should not ask the dead in Christ to pray for us. So even if she was dead, there is no command in the Bible that I cannot talk to her since she is dead.
  3. The Bible does say that we are able to have fellowship with Christians who are in heaven. See Hebrews 12.
 
2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.

This is complete foolishness,nowhere in scripture Im I told to pray to anyone but God
I will answer this simply.
If you are not comfortable offering intercessory prayers, then do not do it.
The Church teaches that these things are beneficial, but there is no demand that you do it if it goes against your conscience.

I would also caution you to refrain from calling foolish, that which you do not understand. Remember, " …God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 1 Co 1:27

Peace
James
 
2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.

This is complete foolishness,nowhere in scripture Im I told to pray to anyone but God
Praying to Saints and the Communion of Saints Proved from Scripture

1. Every Christian is a member of the Body of Christ


“Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.” (Romans 12:4-5)

“The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.” (1 Corinthians 12:12-13)

And we are joined with Christ through baptism

“having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Colossians 2:12)

“We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.” (Romans 6:4)

“for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.” (Galatians 3:27)

2. All Christians are connected through the Body of Christ

“If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.”(1 Corinthians 12:26)

“If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you” (2 Corinthians 2:5)

3. Physical death does not separate us from the Body of Christ

“For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 8:38-39)

4. There is only one Body of Christ in Heaven and on Earth

“by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.” (Ephesians 2:15-16)

“There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” (Ephesians 4:4-5)

5. The Church is the Body of Christ

“And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.” (Ephesians 1:22-23)

“And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy” (Colossians 1:18)

6. Just as we can pray for one another, we can suffer for one another because we are all connected in Christ

“Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. (Colossians 1:24)

7. If you can ask a member of the Body of Christ on earth to pray for you, then you can also ask someone who is a member of that same Body of Christ in heaven to do the same for they are not “dead” at all.

“He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive." (Luke 20:38)

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
 
I will answer this simply.
If you are not comfortable offering intercessory prayers, then do not do it.
The Church teaches that these things are beneficial, but there is no demand that you do it if it goes against your conscience.

I would also caution you to refrain from calling foolish, that which you do not understand. Remember, " …God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 1 Co 1:27

Peace
James
Well, actually, intercessory prayer is an integral and important part of the Mass, my friend. There are the general intercessions (you know, the “Lord, hear our prayers” part ;)), and there’s also the penitential act, which bears to following prayer,

I confess to Almighty God, and to you my brothers and sisters that I have sinned through my own fault in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do; and I ask the Blessed Mary, ever Virgin, all the angels and saints, and you here present, to pray for me to the Lord our God.

We are also required, as Catholics, to believe in the communio sanctorum, the communion of saints; that’s why we are able to say the Apostle’s creed in full meaning.

At the same time, let’s not forget that we can’t go directly to the Father. We have intercession through Christ Jesus.

Catechism of the Catholic Church,

2634 Intercession is a prayer of petition which leads us to pray as Jesus did. He is the one intercessor with the Father on behalf of all men, especially sinners. He is “able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.” The Holy Spirit “himself intercedes for us . . . and intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.”

So, intercessory prayer is a requirement, to some extent 👍 .
 
Well, actually, intercessory prayer is an integral and important part of the Mass, my friend. There are the general intercessions (you know, the “Lord, hear our prayers” part ;)), and there’s also the penitential act, which bears to following prayer,

I confess to Almighty God, and to you my brothers and sisters that I have sinned through my own fault in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do; and I ask the Blessed Mary, ever Virgin, all the angels and saints, and you here present, to pray for me to the Lord our God.

We are also required, as Catholics, to believe in the communio sanctorum, the communion of saints; that’s why we are able to say the Apostle’s creed in full meaning.

At the same time, let’s not forget that we can’t go directly to the Father. We have intercession through Christ Jesus.

Catechism of the Catholic Church,

2634 Intercession is a prayer of petition which leads us to pray as Jesus did. He is the one intercessor with the Father on behalf of all men, especially sinners. He is “able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.” The Holy Spirit “himself intercedes for us . . . and intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.”

So, intercessory prayer is a requirement, to some extent 👍 .
Thanks for the correction/clarification.

I guess I am thinking more in terms of private prayer.
Like Praying to St. Anthony when something is lost. These things would be considered private devotions.

You are right of course re the mass and the communion of saints and I stand corrected.

Peace
James
 
When you pray** for **someone else, you are interceding for that person. And when you are asked to pray for someone else, the person asking is praying to you – whether he prays with you or not.

Yes you are. When you pray for someone – even for the whole world – you are interceding for them.

Which does not invalidate the fact that it is intercessory prayer.
.
OK, I yield. But can I also say ‘So what?’ God hears either way.

In Christ
 
What do you do during the part of the Mass where we customarily ask for the intercession of Mary and the saints?

The liturgies have preserved the Apostles way of doing things from their day until this. Asking for the intercession of the saints is included in all of them.
I admit that I drag some Protestant principles with me into the Catholic Church. One of them is that I can talk to God, and do not need, require or desire an intermediary. God is within, and I am in God - a pretty tight relationship. I have no problem with others who believe that intercession is necessary or desirable, and certainly do not plug my ears when we ‘customarily ask for the intercession of Mary and the saints?’ No problem. I simply have a preference.

In Christ
 
I admit that I drag some Protestant principles with me into the Catholic Church. One of them is that I can talk to God, and do not need, require or desire an intermediary. God is within, and I am in God - a pretty tight relationship. I have no problem with others who believe that intercession is necessary or desirable, and certainly do not plug my ears when we ‘customarily ask for the intercession of Mary and the saints?’ No problem. I simply have a preference.

In Christ
Well, you may change your mind if and when you make it to Purgatory. At this time, the power of intercessory prayer will be the greatest gift the Church Militant can offer you!

But using a different tact, think of it this way. All the saints are part of the Body of Christ, right? Well, when you pray to them, you are praying through them to Christ, who is head of the Body.
 
guanophore;3888360:
It is great that you have this solid prayer experience. What is it about this thread that interests you?
Not sure, and hope I am not wasting others’ time.
It is hard for me to believe that you, as a historian, are not interested in how the early church did things, and the history behind decisions that were made that still impact us today.
Of course one is interested, and that is why I am reading like a dog, and have been for the past four years. (I think others do the same, but I realise that some do not know the names of pre-eminent historians of the Church, or current religious thinkers. This is not a criticism, but an observation.)

There is no reason to assume that I am not interested in the early church. I simply recognise that for me, it is not what I have been *taught *about the work of the early Church, but what I have *learned *about the early church through my own effort. The latter takes time and work and thought, contemplation, discussion and conclusion. There is a difference between being taught, and *learning *that might not be clear to all.

In thinking about all the posts about Luther, and all the misinformation along with correct information, all the dis-ease about his role in the history of the church, the rehabilitation of his reputation (and the criteria which are being used by the Vatican to do so), and the immutable bias on both sides (particularly that of the Catholic community if you will allow me to make that observation), I am sure that we all need to read or re-read a competent and as objectively accurate a history as possible of Renaissance and Reformation, of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation, and of the role which Luther in particular played.

There is much information about his nature, his relationship with the Catholic Church, and his inherent unwillingness to leave the CC which is not reflected in the postings here.

In Christ
 
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