Yes indignant. Why a pistol, why a weapon at this particular point in time? I am glad St Gabriel did a Good Thing, and I suppose when a Saint does a Good Thing one is not supposed to comment.Most people’s signatures reveal something important to them about their personal beliefs or devotions. Your query sounds quite indignant!
Did you consider looking up St. Gabriel Possenti before you posted these questions?
I had the same ones when I saw it! Never met him before.
Then how come Protestant ministers pray to their congregations?2679 Mary is the perfect Orans (pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes, for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.
This is complete foolishness,nowhere in scripture Im I told to pray to anyone but God
I understand your desire to “sort out the truth” through all the garbage spread around by both sides.There is much information about his nature, his relationship with the Catholic Church, and his inherent unwillingness to leave the CC which is not reflected in the postings here.
In Christ
Hmmmm, so do you question when St. Gabriel is pictured with a sword?Yes indignant. Why a pistol, why a weapon at this particular point in time? I am glad St Gabriel did a Good Thing, and I suppose when a Saint does a Good Thing one is not supposed to comment.
But yes, it does say something about the poster to me, and perhaps to others.
In Christ
While I respect your right to your preferences, it is interesting to note two sets of facts:It is a holy medal of St. Gabriel Possenti, an OFFICIALLY recognized saint of the Catholic Church, who used a gun to save his village from twenty terrorists. I have a blessed version hanging from the mirror in my car.
What place does it have on this forum? Catholic Forum … Catholic Saint. Don’t see the disconnect anywhere.
The bolded phrase is the so-what. God hears intercessory prayers.OK, I yield. But can I also say ‘So what?’ God hears either way.
In Christ
It is not possible for something to be required ‘to some extent’. I think that the CCC proves the point that intercession, while desireable, and a necessity for many, is *not *a requirement.Well, actually, intercessory prayer is an integral and important part of the Mass…[as in] 'I ask the Blessed Mary, ever Virgin, all the angels and saints, and you here present, to pray for me to the Lord our God.
We are also required, as Catholics, to believe in the communio sanctorum, the communion of saints; that’s why we are able to say the Apostle’s creed in full meaning.
At the same time, let’s not forget that we can’t go directly to the Father. We have intercession through Christ Jesus.
Catechism of the Catholic Church,
2634 Intercession is a prayer of petition which leads us to pray as Jesus did. He is the one intercessor with the Father on behalf of all men, especially sinners. He is “able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.” The Holy Spirit “himself intercedes for us . . . and intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.”
So, intercessory prayer is a requirement, to some extent.
Oh dear, my predilections are being forced onto the table. Quite frankly, the issue of purgatory is beyond my understanding at the moment, and will probably continue to be so for some time to come. So at the moment, whether or not I land in purgatory over the issue of intercession is irrelevant. For me, right now, there are more important things with regard to the dailiness of living as a Christian than the issue of purgatory yes or no.Well, you may change your mind if and when you make it to Purgatory. At this time, the power of intercessory prayer will be the greatest gift the Church Militant can offer you!
But using a different tact, think of it this way. All the saints are part of the Body of Christ, right? Well, when you pray to them, you are praying through them to Christ, who is head of the Body.
I understand your sorrow, but the fact is that those who desired to follow Luther and others in the Protestant communion did so, and those who did not, did not. I am not sure anyone was locked away.I understand your desire to “sort out the truth” through all the garbage spread around by both sides.
IMO Luther was a man with a legitimate gripe and tried to change the Church from within. But then he was propped up by Germany wealthy class who desired Church properties and he became a pariah for them. Luther’s ego was what enabled them to snare him. With that, he went down the road he did not desire and broke off from the Church.
But what he did to the Catholic Mass is what brings tears to my eyes. He removed the Altar, the re-presentation of the Sacrifice, the Sacrament of Confession, and numerous other channels of Grace, locking them away from people who desired to be with God.
My thoughts on what Jesus said about the Pharisees who prevent people from getting to heaven make me dread what happened to Martin Luther.
There are several perfectly lovely pictures of the Saint on the internet without either sword or pistol/handgun. And see fuller explication in another of my postings.Hmmmm, so do you question when St. Gabriel is pictured with a sword?
So I’m curious, what do you think when you see the Angel Gabriel pictured with a sword?Those who promote handguns are outside my set of preferences, particularly when this is done within a paradigm of ‘a biblical understanding of self-defense’.
In Christ
No. I didn’t mean that your lack of intercessory prayer will land you in Purgatory or extend your time in Purgatory. What I meant was, while in Purgatory, you are going to fully appreciate the value of intercessory prayer because millions and millions of Catholics will be praying for your soul!!! That’s the wonderful gift of intercessory prayer!Oh dear, my predilections are being forced onto the table. Quite frankly, the issue of purgatory is beyond my understanding at the moment, and will probably continue to be so for some time to come. So at the moment, whether or not I land in purgatory over the issue of intercession is irrelevant. For me, right now, there are more important things with regard to the dailiness of living as a Christian than the issue of purgatory yes or no.
If you are uncomfortable praying to saints, then don’t do it!!! Period!But that’s me, and as a new Catholic, I may have it all wrong. There may be 'proof ’ that I must do this or that with regard to intercession, praying to the saints and to the Virgin. I honour those who do; I just don’t do it myself. Is that OK?
In Christ
I thank you for your understanding, comfort and guidance. There is still so much to learn, so much to get ready for - and I can only do my best. Perhaps I am too determined to retain my independence in Christ, in what is essentially a strictly communal faith.If you are uncomfortable praying to saints, then don’t do it!!! Period!
It’s little more than empty rituals and repetitive prayers if you are doing it without your heart! And we all know what Christ thinks of that.
Instead, strive to learn more about this gift, but don’t do it until you are ready to do it.
"Jesus said to him, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”It is not possible for something to be required ‘to some extent’. I think that the CCC proves the point that intercession, while desireable, and a necessity for many, is *not *a requirement.
As I have suggested elsewhere, there seems to be no problem with recognising intercession, and applying it as it is applied in the liturgy of the Church.
It does not seem to be incumbent on the individual Christian however, to ask for intercession: that is my reading of CCC.
Many of the liturgical prayers, surely, are addressed to God the Father, Heavenly Father, Lord God etc, just as many hymns are addressed directly to God. Are you sure that it is not possible to pray directly to God without intercession by Christ?
In Christ
Holy cow.Back to the Thread.
I have not read all the postings, but many of them. I may have missed discussion of a most basic question here. It is probably a question that is unanswerable here.
Pelikan’s book Whose Bible Is It highlights the historical-critical view of the Bible - that events purported to be true must be proven to be true. Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution challenged Genesis’ accounts of the creation of the world, and the story of Adam and Even and the Garden of Eden.
Other supposedly historical events in the Bible have not been historically or scientifically demonstrated by parallel evidence: the darkness during the crucifixion would surely have been mentioned by observers of the crucifixion - outside those reporting in the Bible; the census during Christ’s birth has not been traced historically; nor has the Pharoah of the Exodus. The list seems sorrowfully endless.
Members of the Jesus Seminar (pace) and other current biblical scholars (Catholic, Protestant and agnostic) have written diligently and for the most part with wisdom about the historicity of the Bible, with particular attention to what has been written about Jesus the Christ. It is common cause, I believe, that much of what has been written in both OT and NT are, in a historical/archeological/scientific/theological sense, tainted by subjective memory or forgetfulness, elaboration by believers, or simply by the inevitable errors of oral transmission of knowledge.
When we ask what did Christ teach that was not written, as this thread does, my own understanding is that the Bible is neither infallible or immutable, but that its authenticity is sanctified by the traditions of the Church, and certainly by those evidential truths that do exist.
And that therefore, we must, as practicing Catholic Christians, be able to look far outside the Bible, outside the Sacred Scriptures themselves, for a greater and more perfect understanding of Christ’s teachings. That does not detract in any way from the faith, for me.
The Bible tells its story, but it is not infallible, and it does not say it all. (See also encyclicals Providentissimus Deus and Divino Afflante Spiritu as well as John Paul II/Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church.
Where to look is the problem, and that is probably the problem for the original poster. It is certainly the problem for me.
In Christ
So how do you know when they are out of purgatory?
- Your Scripture is incomplete. Macabees tells us that it is helpful to pray for the dead, and assist them in Purgatory.
- Pray = communicate. Praying to someone is having a conversation with them. It doesn’t necessarily mean worship. Non Catholics generally assume the word pray means worship. It doesn’t.
- Who says it has to be in Scripture? God’s Church operates with His authority.
You keep saying these same things over and over which I don’t think even YOU believe! Those who have passed from this life and are still ALIVE in Christ are very much alive. How sad that you are trying to prove otherwise. You are cutting off your own Christian legs with such sad statements. The true dead are in hell. Period. We are not to attempt to contact those in hell.So how do you know when they are out of purgatory?
Since noone that has passed on can hear you,whats the use,also can you all pray silently in other words can they read your mind,also how can they hear millions of prayers at the same time?
His authority is His Word which is scripture,and scripture says not to pray to the dead