SPLIT: Where does it say our souls are immortal?

[rstrats]

LilyM,

re: “Your immortal soul is too precious to take such a risk.”

I’m not aware of any scripture that says that anyone has an immortal soul. What do you have in mind?

 

[LilyM]

LilyM,

re: “Your immortal soul is too precious to take such a risk.”

I’m not aware of any scripture that says that anyone has an immortal soul. What do you have in mind?

A quick definition might be in order - from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary:

1. immortal (adjective)
2. immortal (noun)

Main Entry:
1im·mor·tal Listen to the pronunciation of 1immortal
Pronunciation:
(ˌ)i-ˈmȯr-təl\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Middle English, from Latin immortalis, from in- + mortalis mortal
Date:
14th century

1 : exempt from death
2 : exempt from oblivion : imperishable
3 : connected with or relating to immortality
4 : able or tending to divide indefinitely
— im·mor·tal·ly Listen to the pronunciation of immortally -təl-ē\ adverb

All human souls are immortal - exempt from death (they never cease to be) and exempt from oblivion (they never perish). Hence all humans going to eternal rewards - heaven or hell, as is indicated in the Gospels.

And hence Hell being eternal - it is described as being ‘where the worm never dies and the fire is never quenched’. No need for it to be eternal unless our souls were immortal.

 

[rstrats]

LilyM,

re: “A quick definition might be in order - from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary:”

Thanks for verifying my understanding of the meaning of immortality.

re: “All human souls are immortal…”

Yes, you said that before. That is what prompted my question. What scripture says that souls are immortal? I still am not aware of any. Romans 2:7 speaks of seeking immortality. Why would that be necessary if everyone already has it? 1 Corinthians 15:53 says that a person is not inherently immortal, but rather has to put on immortality. Also, Matthew 10:28 says that a soul can be destroyed. If it were immortal, that wouldn’t be possible. And finally, 1 Timothy 16:15 and 16 says that only God has immortality.

 

[LilyM]

Again, why does the fire of hell need to be eternal if the souls who end up there are eventually destroyed? Why has the devil continued to exist - surely if any evil soul were destroyed he would be?

Romans 2:7 needs to be read in context. As Catholics we don’t read each verse or phrase in isolation. Here immortality is listed alongside glory and honour, which gives a clue. We had a cricket team here in Australia who were so good they were justly named ‘the Immortals’. Why? Because we literally thought they’d never die? No, simply because they deserved to live forever, and their fame WILL endure.

1 Corithians 53: “For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.”

Our bodies are both perishable and mortal, sure, but Christ’s resurrection has ‘clothed’ *all *bodies with the ability to rise again - some to blessedness, some to damnation. They could not do so prior to it.

And our souls, of course, never have been mortal or perishable, for they are God’s own breath breathed into us in Adam, and that never dies and can never die.

As for Matthew - again, it needs to be read in context. We speak of people’s lives being ‘destroyed’ when they are victims of great tragedy, or heinous crime. Clearly we do not mean this literally - that they cease to exist or anything, simply that their misery makes their lives a great burden to them. Same with the souls in hell.

Do you mean 1 Timothy 6? To be sure it does describe God as ‘only immortal’, but again context matters. See, 1 Timothy 1:17 also describes Him as “the only wise God” (at least in some versions). In fact there is a well known hymn based on this - ‘Immortal, Invisible, God Only Wise’.

Clearly human beings are wise as well, just not with the fullness of wisdom that God has. Perhaps immortality is in some fashion another of those characteristics - perhaps in some way our immortality is lacking since it is a gift of God (that we lost and then Christ regained for us) whereas His is inherently part of Himself, never to be lost.

Above all, remember that as Catholics, whatever scripture may appear to say to us, we are to defer to the interpretation of the Magisterium in considering it. They have the power to bind and loose, the charism of infallibility, and the guarantee of the Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth in a manner that you and I do not.

And this is what they have to say on the matter in the Catechism, as has been taught by numerous Popes and Councils:

“366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.”

 

[Jean_Anthony]

aaa

 

[cydonian]

If our souls are not immortal, what would be the reason for heaven or hell?

 

[rstrats]

re: “If our souls are not immortal, what would be the reason for heaven or hell?”

But is there any scripture that specifically says that souls are immortal - i.e., can’t die?

 

[slMike]

re: “If our souls are not immortal, what would be the reason for heaven or hell?”

But is there any scripture that specifically says that souls are immortal - i.e., can’t die?

Wis 5:15 But the* righteous live for evermore*; their reward also is with the Lord, and the care of them is with the most High.

Do the righteous have souls? Then you have your answer. God bless.

 

[Gorgias]

Wis 5:15 But the* righteous live for evermore*; their reward also is with the Lord, and the care of them is with the most High.

Do the righteous have souls? Then you have your answer. God bless.

That doesn’t help you as much as you think it does, against rstrats’ question. He could respond to you that souls (per se) aren’t immortal, but rather, only those persons who are judged righteous are rewarded with immortality. We have to try a little harder to answer someone who demands an explicit Scriptural warrant of universal spiritual immortality…

 

[slMike]

We have to try a little harder to answer someone who demands an explicit Scriptural warrant of universal spiritual immortality…

Lets try that with these two verses:

Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer

Deu 18:11 or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead,

The DR gives a better version of that last verse from the ESV:

Deu 18:11 Nor charmer, nor any one that consulteth pythonic spirits, or fortune tellers, or that seeketh the truth from the dead.

Assuming we can translate “the dead” (hebrew=mûth) as dead persons collectively, which we can biblically:

Num 16:48 And he stood between *the dead *and the living; and the plague was stayed.

then souls of “the dead” must still be alive or they wouldn’t be able to respond to any inquiries.

Mike

 

[fisherman_carl]

Read Wisdom 2.

" for God created man for incorruption,
and made him in the image of his own eternity,
"

 

[Gorgias]

Lets try that with these two verses:

Assuming we can translate “the dead” (hebrew=mûth) as dead persons collectively, which we can biblically:

Num 16:48 And he stood between *the dead *and the living; and the plague was stayed.

then souls of “the dead” must still be alive or they wouldn’t be able to respond to any inquiries.

That’s a good start, but it still doesn’t get us across the finish line. One might respond that it demonstrates that, during our era – that is, prior to eternity – no souls are destroyed, but that it doesn’t prove that all souls live eternally in the eschaton.

 

[rstrats]

As Gorgias touched upon, there are no scriptures that I am aware of that state that a soul is inherently immortal. It does, however, have things to say about immortality. For example “You know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him” (1 John 3:15). And Paul told the faithful in Rome that eternal life will be given to those who seek for glory, honor, and immortality (Romans 2:6-7). He also taught those at Corinth that they must “put on immortality” (1 Corinthians 15:53). And in 1 Timothy 6:16 Paul says that only the Messiah has immortality. And states further in Romans 6:23 that eternal life is a “gift”. None of these statements make any sense if everyone already has immortality.

 

[slMike]

That’s a good start, but it still doesn’t get us across the finish line. One might respond that it demonstrates that, during our era – that is, prior to eternity – no souls are destroyed,*** but that it doesn’t prove that all souls live eternally in the eschaton***.

Let me try and deal with the eternal destiny of souls both just and condemned using the Final Judgement described in Mt. 25:

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Those on the right hand are the just those on the left the condemned. Each of these is assigned an eternal destiny. One of reward the other of punishment. Our understanding of rewarding and punishing requires that these terms have an object. In the context of the above scripture this object is Man and of course with his soul.

If rewarding and punishing are to be dealt eternally than their objects must also exist eternally with them and not suffer destruction.

Therefore Man’s soul will exist eternally after the final judgement.

In the same vein the prophesy of Daniel fortells the resurrection and the fate of the just and the damned:

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep [N.B. are not destroyed] in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Mike