SPLIT: Which came first the Bible or the Church?

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DaisyD said:
This tells you Peter was in Rome?
Are you serious? You actually believe it or are you getting the quote from an apologists website? In other words, is this what they tell you to believe, or did you discern it from reading the text?
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  1. Yes, it does tell me Peter was in Rome. So does the fact that Peter was martyred in Rome and buried in Rome.
  2. Yes, I’m serious.
  3. I got that quote from the Bible. Look it up yourself.
  4. The quote can mean only that Peter was in Rome. “Babylon” is a frequent codeword for Rome in the New Testament. I provided other references from the New Testament where “Babylon” is used in such a manner. At the same 1 Peter was written, there was no Christian community in the actual Babylon. The Christian Church in Babylon wasn’t founded until the 2nd century A.D., several decades after Peter was martyred in Rome.
– Mark L. Chance.
 
mlchance said:
  1. Yes, it does tell me Peter was in Rome. So does the fact that Peter was martyred in Rome and buried in Rome.
  2. Yes, I’m serious.
  3. I got that quote from the Bible. Look it up yourself.
  4. The quote can mean only that Peter was in Rome. “Babylon” is a frequent codeword for Rome in the New Testament. I provided other references from the New Testament where “Babylon” is used in such a manner. At the same 1 Peter was written, there was no Christian community in the actual Babylon. The Christian Church in Babylon wasn’t founded until the 2nd century A.D., several decades after Peter was martyred in Rome.
– Mark L. Chance.
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OK I understand. Peter was in Rome to start the church and this all happened before Genesis was written. So the church came before the Bible.
 
DaisyD said:
OK I understand. Peter was in Rome to start the church and this all happened before Genesis was written. So the church came before the Bible.
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:rolleyes:

Is Genesis the Bible? Or, rather, is Genesis part of the Bible? When Christ lived on Earth, how much the New Testament had been written? Since none of the New Testament had been written, was there a complete Bible in the sense that Christians use the term? When was the last book of the New Testament written? Was this after the Day of Pentecost, circa 33 A.D.? If so, doesn’t this mean that the Church came before the New Testament? If so, doesn’t this also mean that the Church came before the Bible as Christians use the term?

In case you’re unsure, the answers are, in order: No, it isn’t. Yes, it is. None of it. No. Around 100 A.D. at the latest. Yes, it was. Yes, it does. Yes, it does.

Now, since you’re willing to learn, and you’ve been instructed as to the errors you’ve made concerning this topic, you can avoid repeating those mistakes in the future.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Well thank you Mr Chance!

So your position is that the church came first.

Did the church also write the bible?
 
DaisyD said:
Well thank you Mr Chance!

So your position is that the church came first.

Did the church also write the bible?
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  1. You’re welcome.
  2. That’s not my position. Them’s the facts of the matter. If my position were something else, the facts wouldn’t change. I’d just be wrong.
  3. Members of the Church wrote the New Testament. This is self-evident, unless one wants to attempt to maintain the unsupportable proposition that men such as the Apostles weren’t members of the Church.
The Church collected and protected the books of the New Testament. The Church authoritatively determined which books were validly part of the New Testament and which ones weren’t. The reason you and I can walk into a bookstore today and buy a Bible is because of God’s providence operating through the Church.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
I was taught that the bible is the inspired Word of God.
The whole thing was written from the beginning.
God knew the ending at the beginning.
God knew of the fall of Satan and the redemption of man and the new Jerusalem and all the rest, BEFORE Genesis was ever written on papyrus.
God knew Jesus would redeem man in Gen 3:15.

If you think any man, church, or papal council has any influence on God’s Word you are mistaken.
 
DaisyD said:
I was taught that the bible is the inspired Word of God.
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It is.
DaisyD said:
The whole thing was written from the beginning.
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No part of the New Testament was written before 40 A.D., at the earliest, which demolishes your statement immediately above.
DaisyD said:
God knew the ending at the beginning. God knew of the fall of Satan and the redemption of man and the new Jerusalem and all the rest, BEFORE Genesis was ever written on papyrus. God knew Jesus would redeem man in Gen 3:15.
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Quite so. But this does nothing to change the fact that the collection of Sacred Writings you know as the Bible wasn’t a complete collection until well into the 4th century A.D.
DaisyD said:
If you think any man, church, or papal council has any influence on God’s Word you are mistaken.
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Church councils determined which books would be included in the Bible. Check the Council of Carthage, Canon 24, for example. Also note that in Canon 24, Carthage appeals to Rome for confirmation.

It seems as if my responses to you in this matter have now come to an end. You’ve made claims that have been demonstrated false. The historical facts of the matter have been laid out, and you’ve not refuted them because facts cannot be refuted.

Adieu.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Wow you told me!

It is evident that we are not on the same page.

You feel that your church had something to do with God’s word.

So if they decided to leave out Revelation, there would be no second coming or tribulation.

My point is that God had the whole thing planned from the foundation of the world.

Man has nothing to do with it.
Every book in the Bible was planned from the beginning.
Every jot and every tittle was planned by God.
Man has nothing to do with it.
The more you read it the more evident this will become to you.
Study the Bible and you will see it is Divine.
 
God is the co- author of the Bible.

He inspired men to write His word.

So men and God wrote the Bible.

Yes God “planned the whole thing” including having the men write using their God given talents.

But the question is which men?

For the Old Testament was written by Moses and those who followed Moses.

The New Testament was written by Christians. And later the Church decided, with the help of the Holy Spirit, which letters and books would be part of the New Testament.

These Christians were also known as Catholics.
 
fellowChristian said:
God is the co- author of the Bible.

He inspired men to write His word.

So men and God wrote the Bible.

Yes God “planned the whole thing” including having the men write using their God given talents.

But the question is which men?

For the Old Testament was written by Moses and those who followed Moses.

The New Testament was written by Christians. And later the Church decided, with the help of the Holy Spirit, which letters and books would be part of the New Testament.

These Christians were also known as Catholics.
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So you also believe the church came before the bible?
 
DaisyD said:
Man has nothing to do with it.
Every book in the Bible was planned from the beginning.
Every jot and every tittle was planned by God.
Man has nothing to do with it.
The more you read it the more evident this will become to you.
Study the Bible and you will see it is Divine.
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If man had nothing to do with it, kindly explain why the “original” Bible contains more books than the one you currently use. Who took those books out, man or God?
 
Of course the Church!

Jesus did not say " Go out and write a book."

The Bible did not create the Church.

Jesus built the Church.

Then the Church wrote our salvation history.

Christianity came from God.Not from a book.

God first spoke to Moses.Then came the written.

Jesus first spoke to Peter. Then came the written.

Even the Jewish people believe in the “Oral Law” and the “Written Law” knowing the oral came before the written.
 
DaisyD-

Do you really believe that God dropped the Bible from heaven?
 
The apocrypha does not belong in God’s word. It is contradictory to God’s word. But that is another topic.
The KJV is complete as God’s word.
No Gospels of Thomas, no Gospels of Judas, no Apocrypha
 
DaisyD–

Do you believe God dropped the Bible from heaven?
 
DaisyD said:
The apocrypha does not belong in God’s word. It is contradictory to God’s word. But that is another topic.
The KJV is complete as God’s word.
No Gospels of Thomas, no Gospels of Judas, no Apocrypha
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Hmm…I wonder what people used for a Bible before the KJV was translated, which, by the way, in its original version, included the missing books.

For someone who stated they were willing to learn, you certainly seem to have a closed mind.
 
The church didn’t write the bible.
The Bible was not dropped from Heaven either.
The wisdom of Romans did not come from Paul but from the Holy Spirit.
Prophecy from the OT and the NT did not come from any man but the Holy Spirit.
Not one iota of man’s intellect was needed to create the bible.
Men needed to write it down. God created it.
It doesn’t matter how many years it took men to ‘decide’ which books should be included in the canon. God had the whole thing completed before the foundation of the world. Whatever the councils decided would have to line up with Gods plan.
All 66 books were in Gods plan from the foundation. Man cannot do anything to change that.
 
According to DaisyD, who I assume is less then 2000 years old.
  1. the bible did not drop out of heaven. ** I agree**
2.men did not have anything to do with the bible. They co-authored it, so I disagree

3.God created it.** I agree but God used men to do it**

4.Men needed to write it down. Yes that is what I said

5.It doesn’t matter how many years it took men to ‘decide’ which books should be included in the canon. God had the whole thing completed before the foundation of the world. Whatever the councils decided would have to line up with Gods plan.

6.All 66 books were in Gods plan from the foundation. Man cannot do anything to change that.
**
I have a question DaisyD.

Just to number 6.

Q: If man can’t do anything to change it. Then why does your Bible have 7 books missing?**
 
DaisyD said:
To answer the original question. The Bible, which begins in Genesis, existed thousands of years before the RCC was formed by Constantine around 325AD
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Historically inaccurate statement not supported by fact.
 
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