SPLIT: Why so little support for the EF?

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I don’t think the reason for resistance is really all that complicated.

The EF mass is associated with a time of a different church culture, because the mass is a definitive feature of Catholic identity. While there were probably good things to some of that culture, there were a lot of repressive, unresponsive, ugly, and even damaging aspects to that culture. Vatican II recognized this and made it possible to grow beyond and begin healing. Many people are still healing.

It seems to be mostly people who were too young to remember the ol’ days of the EF who are pushing for it now, and they seem to be (perhaps rightly?) reveling in its romanticism. They want to reclaim something lost.

It seems to be mostly people who do remember the ol’ days of the EF who are vehemently against it. It’s entirely rational. The law of prayer is the law of belief, and the law of belief becomes the law of behavior. It is they who had to do the hard work of change, growth, and healing from that culture of behavior, and they don’t ever want the causes to be “reclaimed.”

We would do well to listen to the concerns of those who lived through it the first time, while they are still with us.
Excellent analysis, ChemicalBean! I’m one of the babyboomers who remember attending mass in the fifties and sixties before VII and it holds no romance for me! Having mass in the local vernacular is a huge help to those with auditory processing disorders as well as to those of us who see no magic in Latin. 👍
 
Deacon, after reading those two links you posted above, I can see what you mean when you say the “hermeneutic of discontinuity and rupture” seem to be referring to theological concepts. But I, for one, think it would be safe to say Benedict XVI would extend that to say that the Liturgy should also be celebrated with a “hermeneutic of continuity”, and I think it is very, very clear that the Liturgy has, in many instances since the Council, NOT been celebrated in continuity with the 1962 Missal. In any case, regardless, the manner in which the Liturgy is celebrated can be a very big indicator of whether there is a theological hermeneutic of continuity or discontinuity being promoted, whether purposefully or unintentionally. For many people, their Sunday Mass is one of the only times they do something “religious”, and therefore, the Mass can be (and is for many, regardless of whatever else they do outside of Mass) a theological formation. As the cliche saying goes, lex orandi, lex credendi (lex vivendi). I think we all know there are more appropriate ways to celebrate the OF Mass than others, and that it is better to err on the side of continuity with regards to the Liturgy.

Something tells me you already know all of this. I just wanted to point out that though the actual documents speaking about the hermeneutic of continuity/discontinuity may not have mentioned the Liturgy specifically, the Liturgy is so intertwined with nearly everything to do with Catholicism that I think it’d be tough (in my opinion, impossible) to make the argument that the discussion in those documents couldn’t also be applied to the Liturgy, or that Benedict XVI didn’t apply it himself in the celebration of the Liturgy.
 
… Having mass in the local vernacular is a huge help to those with auditory processing disorders as well as to those of us who see no magic in Latin.
Hello,

Auditory processing disorders? There’s a lot less “auditory processing” in the old Mass since there is much more silent prayer and, unless you know Latin, you wouldn’t bother to even try to process what you heard. Magic? Not sure where to go with that.

In general, though, I think “ChemicalBean” gave some insight into why some are not in favor of the old Mass. That’s the impression some have.

Dan
 
That the Mass, especially the Canon, was even made audible was perhaps the biggest rupture of all IMO because it went against much of the Mass philosophy and psychology expressed by our Trent fathers. The vulgar tongue became a secondary issue. I’m sure many people are (re)discovering the EF for its atmosphere of quiet contemplative prayer. I believe that if it’s only the Latin and dialogue they love, they would seek out a Latin OF.
You have a right to your opinion but it comes across as rather insulting to me. Likeing the occasional Latin hymns and having Mass in the vernacular** is not the only thing we love about the Mass**.
 
I don’t think the reason for resistance is really all that complicated.

The EF mass is associated with a time of a different church culture, because the mass is a definitive feature of Catholic identity. While there were probably good things to some of that culture, there were a lot of repressive, unresponsive, ugly, and even damaging aspects to that culture. Vatican II recognized this and made it possible to grow beyond and begin healing. Many people are still healing.

It seems to be mostly people who were too young to remember the ol’ days of the EF who are pushing for it now, and they seem to be (perhaps rightly?) reveling in its romanticism. They want to reclaim something lost.

It seems to be mostly people who do remember the ol’ days of the EF who are vehemently against it. It’s entirely rational. The law of prayer is the law of belief, and the law of belief becomes the law of behavior. It is they who had to do the hard work of change, growth, and healing from that culture of behavior, and they don’t ever want the causes to be “reclaimed.”

We would do well to listen to the concerns of those who lived through it the first time, while they are still with us.
That’s the clearest load of balderdash I’ve ever seen.

The Tridentine Mass in its essence spans over one thousand years of Western Church history. Devotion to it has made thousands, probably millions of saints. The Mass was envied, imitated, and mocked, but always occupied a central role in Christian identity.

Perhaps you are unaware of the first two thousand years of Church history. You seem to think that it is shameful, uncomfortable, and easily discarded. On the contrary. It is glorious and full of richness, not to mention the lives of the aforementioned saints. Anyone who wishes to forget or discard the history associated with the Tridentine Mass is a heretic guilty of, at the very least, the “hermeneutic of rupture” that has perniciously infected the most recent 50 years of the Church.

The Tridentine Mass and its associated practices such as an extended Communion fast and veiling for women represents a “hard-identity Catholicism” that is being lost today. Just as the Jews had dietary and ritual purity laws to set themselves apart from the Gentiles, so too do Catholics have a counter-cultural identity that sets us apart, “in the world but not of the world.” We should embrace this identity for all it is worth. It is our patrimony, our heritage, and our legacy.
 
I just think that for many people, the EF is thought of as old-fashioned. Just like people don’t want to wear clothes they wore 50 years ago, they don’t want to do other things like they did 50 years ago.
 
I just think that for many people, the EF is thought of as old-fashioned. Just like people don’t want to wear clothes they wore 50 years ago, they don’t want to do other things like they did 50 years ago.
Yes, Modernism is a great problem, inside and outside the Church.
 
You have a right to your opinion
This is not my opinion.
ON THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS
On the solemn ceremonies of the Sacrifice of the Mass.
And whereas such is the nature of man, that, without external helps, he cannot easily be raised to the meditation of divine things; therefore has holy Mother Church instituted certain rites, to wit that certain things be pronounced in the mass in a low, and others in a louder, tone. She has likewise employed ceremonies, such as mystic benedictions, lights, incense, vestments, and many other things of this kind, derived from an apostolical discipline and tradition, whereby both the majesty of so great a sacrifice might be recommended, and the minds of the faithful be excited, by those visible signs of religion and piety, to the contemplation of those most sublime things which are hidden in this sacrifice.
CANON IX.–If any one saith, that the rite of the Roman Church, according to which a part of the canon and the words of consecration are pronounced in a low tone, is to be condemned; or, that the mass ought to be celebrated in the vulgar tongue only; or, that water ought not to be mixed with the wine that is to be offered in the chalice, for that it is contrary to the institution of Christ; let him be anathema.
Now one can argue that the anathema is a discipline and can be removed but nonetheless that doesn’t change the underlying doctrine or Trent philosophy of the Mass, if you wish.

Sorry if bringing this to your attention offends you.
 
I would put that more positively: I see plenty of continuity: Gloria, Credo, Scripture readings, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, communion, etc. Vatican II did not do away with the main structure, but who can’t see that the priest now faces the people, uses amplification, greets the congregation in his own way, etc? Cardinal Arinze himself conceded that people wouldn’t be asking for the EF had we not been so “creative” or “banalizing” or “desecrating” in/of the Mass.
There’s only a minor scratching of the surface in your interpretation of the current situation here in my view. After Vatican II a certain obstinate attitude arose as a position ie. change is bad and must be resisted… and it prevented a whole Church approach to reform. That is the beauty of the Popes nurturing of a synodal Church now. Everyone needs to give (name removed by moderator)ut to find the way of Gods will. There were still some glaring examples though even around the recent synod of obstinate rejection of synodality.

So the development of the Liturgy over the last 50 years has lacked the due richness of reform.

You can see the human conditions manifest even in the one holy Catholic Church, as you can in the corporate environment. My husband has participated in countless corporate health and growth courses since his role in the big industry he works in as an analyst programmer, critically warrants healthy team dynamics or else there’d be a collapse of a major state utility.

That temptation to reject reform ‘on principle’ and to take a condemnatory position towards the changes made without their (name removed by moderator)ut and dare I say, even a dark pleasure in their flaws and failures… is part of the broken human condition. It is certainly ‘dangerous’.
 
That the Mass, especially the Canon, was even made audible was perhaps the biggest rupture of all IMO because it went against much of the Mass philosophy and psychology expressed by our Trent fathers. The vulgar tongue became a secondary issue. I’m sure many people are (re)discovering the EF for its atmosphere of quiet contemplative prayer**. I believe that **if it’s only the Latin and dialogue they love, they would seek out a Latin OF.
This is not my opinion.

Now one can argue that the anathema is a discipline and can be removed but nonetheless that doesn’t change the underlying doctrine or Trent philosophy of the Mass, if you wish.

Sorry if bringing this to your attention offends you.
What of what you quoted do you think offends me? Sorry if that offends you :rolleyes:
 
It is kind of silly to point to the Synods of the past 50 years and cry “look, collegiality!” when in reality, the Holy Father has the final word and the ultimate power over everything. Synods in the Church today are purely advisory, they have no doctrinal weight and no legislative power.
 
That temptation to reject reform ‘on principle’ and to take a condemnatory position towards the changes made without their (name removed by moderator)ut and dare I say, even a dark pleasure in their flaws and failures… is part of the broken human condition. It is certainly ‘dangerous’.
In that case, you shouldn’t have any problem with any “reform of the reform” no matter what it is. Am I right “on principle”? 😉

There is an branch of psychology that deals with adjustments. Unfortunately I only took only one course of it as an elective in my year of psychology. But I do know each of us deals with (forced) changes differently, not in general terms of flaws and failures as you seem to suggest.
 
I don’t think the reason for resistance is really all that complicated.

The EF mass is associated with a time of a different church culture, because the mass is a definitive feature of Catholic identity. While there were probably good things to some of that culture, there were a lot of repressive, unresponsive, ugly, and even damaging aspects to that culture. Vatican II recognized this and made it possible to grow beyond and begin healing. Many people are still healing.

It seems to be mostly people who were too young to remember the ol’ days of the EF who are pushing for it now, and they seem to be (perhaps rightly?) reveling in its romanticism. They want to reclaim something lost.

It seems to be mostly people who do remember the ol’ days of the EF who are vehemently against it. It’s entirely rational. The law of prayer is the law of belief, and the law of belief becomes the law of behavior. It is they who had to do the hard work of change, growth, and healing from that culture of behavior, and they don’t ever want the causes to be “reclaimed.”

We would do well to listen to the concerns of those who lived through it the first time, while they are still with us.
Can you be more specific about “that culture”?

Can you explain what you mean by “… there were a lot of repressive, unresponsive, ugly, and even damaging aspects to that culture. Vatican II recognized this and made it possible to grow beyond and begin healing. Many people are still healing.”

What are they healing from?

And what about this? I’m not clear as to what you’re trying to say or who you’re referring to. "It is they who had to do the hard work of change, growth, and healing from that culture of behavior, and they don’t ever want the causes to be “reclaimed.”’

The EF is equal to the OF. There is no romanticism. Pope Benedict:

"In the first place, there is the fear that the document detracts from the authority of the Second Vatican Council, one of whose essential decisions – the liturgical reform – is being called into question.

"This fear is unfounded. In this regard, it must first be said that the Missal published by Paul VI and then republished in two subsequent editions by John Paul II, obviously is and continues to be the normal Form – the Forma ordinaria – of the Eucharistic Liturgy. The last version of the Missale Romanum prior to the Council, which was published with the authority of Pope John XXIII in 1962 and used during the Council, will now be able to be used as a Forma extraordinaria of the liturgical celebration. It is not appropriate to speak of these two versions of the Roman Missal as if they were “two Rites”. Rather, it is a matter of a twofold use of one and the same rite.

“As for the use of the 1962 Missal as a Forma extraordinaria of the liturgy of the Mass, I would like to draw attention to the fact that this Missal was never juridically abrogated and, consequently, in principle, was always permitted. At the time of the introduction of the new Missal, it did not seem necessary to issue specific norms for the possible use of the earlier Missal. Probably it was thought that it would be a matter of a few individual cases which would be resolved, case by case, on the local level. Afterwards, however, it soon became apparent that a good number of people remained strongly attached to this usage of the Roman Rite, which had been familiar to them from childhood. This was especially the case in countries where the liturgical movement had provided many people with a notable liturgical formation and a deep, personal familiarity with the earlier Form of the liturgical celebration. We all know that, in the movement led by Archbishop Lefebvre, fidelity to the old Missal became an external mark of identity; the reasons for the break which arose over this, however, were at a deeper level. Many people who clearly accepted the binding character of the Second Vatican Council, and were faithful to the Pope and the Bishops, nonetheless also desired to recover the form of the sacred liturgy that was dear to them. This occurred above all because in many places celebrations were not faithful to the prescriptions of the new Missal, but the latter actually was understood as authorizing or even requiring creativity, which frequently led to deformations of the liturgy which were hard to bear. I am speaking from experience, since I too lived through that period with all its hopes and its confusion. And I have seen how arbitrary deformations of the liturgy caused deep pain to individuals totally rooted in the faith of the Church.”

Ed
 
In that case, you shouldn’t have any problem with any “reform of the reform” no matter what it is. Am I right “on principle”? 😉

There is an branch of psychology that deals with adjustments. Unfortunately I only took only one course of it as an elective in my year of psychology. But I do know each of us deals with (forced) changes differently, not in general terms of flaws and failures as you seem to suggest.
I perhaps hadn’t written the sentence well, but the ‘flaws and failures’ I was referring to were those that creep into reformed models because of lack of the full participation of the group in the reform process. Those that hold themselves apart from the reform process on principle, then can be tempted to a dark pleasure at seeing the failures.

The reason that I see great hope in Pope Francis insistence on synodality is because it is already a healthy and viable attitude towards ‘team work’ based endeavours in the world at large. Not that I think the Church is basically a corporate business, but that human relationships are part of every group based situation.
 
That’s the clearest load of balderdash I’ve ever seen.

The Tridentine Mass in its essence spans over one thousand years of Western Church history. Devotion to it has made thousands, probably millions of saints. The Mass was envied, imitated, and mocked, but always occupied a central role in Christian identity.

Perhaps you are unaware of the first two thousand years of Church history. You seem to think that it is shameful, uncomfortable, and easily discarded. On the contrary. It is glorious and full of richness, not to mention the lives of the aforementioned saints. Anyone who wishes to forget or discard the history associated with the Tridentine Mass is a heretic guilty of, at the very least, the “hermeneutic of rupture” that has perniciously infected the most recent 50 years of the Church.

The Tridentine Mass and its associated practices such as an extended Communion fast and veiling for women represents a “hard-identity Catholicism” that is being lost today. Just as the Jews had dietary and ritual purity laws to set themselves apart from the Gentiles, so too do Catholics have a counter-cultural identity that sets us apart, “in the world but not of the world.” We should embrace this identity for all it is worth. It is our patrimony, our heritage, and our legacy.
Shortly before stepping down as Pope, Pope Benedict clearly identified the source of the “hermeneutic of rupture”.

ncregister.com/daily-news/pope-media-spread-misinterpretations-of-vatican-ii/

ncregister.com/daily-news/benedict-and-the-second-vatican-council-calming-the-storm/

People need to clearly understand the US in 1965. People in general, and Catholics in particular, lived out their faith more. There was greater respect for our neighbors, our government and the media, which reflected our values. A media that took the time, and I quote from a public service announcement I watched: “We watch everything you watch to make certain that it is suitable for the entire family.” Yes, grandma to the youngest could watch TV without fear of shame or depictions of immoral behavior or the use of profanity.

BUT, the wolves were gathering - ready to take advantage of and abuse our trust. By the end of the 1960s, the media - movies first, then TV, gradually turned in a bad direction that worsened as the decades passed.

I cherish everything I was taught prior to the end of Vatican II.

We must be today’s counter-culture. We must be the salt of the earth. This is nothing new as it relates to Church teaching but it has been buried under decades of filth, and many don’t realize it. It’s time to help them realize it.

The Church remained. It was Catholics in general that were gradually told lies over and over and over again for decades that became infected. They saw their friends shacking up, using illegal drugs and respecting no one except their own egos and desires. It is now “My will be done.” That is a satanic line: “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.” Aleister Crowley

And they didn’t realize - in the late 1960s - that the “peace and love” Hippies and Anarchists were telling them lies. They were being preached their gospel. Then the media joined in. It’s all very clear to anyone who wants to take the time to learn how it was done. Like sheep led to the slaughter… while wearing Peace symbols, and being offered marijuana and hearing “you know you want to have sex with your girlfriend.” I was there.

“Don’t trust anyone over 30!” Mom, dad, priests, nuns? No. That was old. We will give you a Woodstock Nation.

No. Fornication, porn, dope and do whatever you want to do. The planned addictions followed.

amazon.com/The-Marketing-Evil-Pseudo-Experts-Corruption/dp/1581824599

They yelled Freedom! while becoming slaves to their flesh and addicts. Urged on by people who loved those things and wanted us to love them too.

Ed
 
I have not hesitated in many other threads to counter EF supporters who defend the SSPX, or discount the valid authority of diocesan bishops, or denigrate the OF or living Magisterium.

However:
  • The Church in recent years often talks about “diversity”, and “inclusiveness”. There are efforts to reach out, to listen to various sub groups in the diocese, and be more sensitive to their needs and interests (within the bounds of proper liturgical form). Why is there so much hostility to those who are like the EF? Why no “reaching out” to them?
  • When my diocese chose to allow one parish (out of 275) to have a weekly TLM, why did a priest in my, different, parish denounce this as “dangerous”? Keep in mind 99.9% of Masses would still be in what we now call the OF. This same priest often denounced the Vatican for its authoritarian, “one-size-fits-all” approach(!) He since joined the TEC, applauding it for being open minded.
  • I don’t usually attend the TLM. But when I do, it re-calibrates me, reminds me more explicitly of the supernatural, the vertical character of all valid Masses, EF or OF. I am not saying parochial schools should always have the EF, but why not have it once a year for them? We see children dress up now and then in clothing of their ethnic origin, celebrating their heritage in other ways; why not expose them to part of our Catholic heritage? The families I know who attend the diocesan approved EF Mass do not criticize the OF. They just prefer the EF. Personally I better appreciate and participate the OF Masses I attend almost daily because I occasionally attend the EF.
  • I will continue to disagree with TLM supporters when they are wrong. But the opposition to the TLM also at times seems almost fanatic, irrational as well. Why?
I have to be honest with you I don’t care one way or another like I think it is cool that you like it and you are passionate about it but a lot of times if you just search words on the internet you’ll find people with a persecution complex. So I think that is why people feel threatened by it
 
In discussions such as this, there has been a tendency for some who prefer the EF to peak about others “hating” Latin. That has a tendency to cloud issues and make discussion difficult at best.

Perhaps an anecdote may help: my mother born in 1917, was fourth generation in a line of Dutch Catholics who emigrated from Holland. Her graduating high school class consisted of 5 students, all of who grew up in a rural farming community, and most or all of those students could trace family back to the original 12 founding families.

She never went beyond high school (though she might have made a good engineer); and was a faithful, and relatively simple Catholic all her life. As a family we made Mother of Perpetual Help devotions (which never seemed to end), First Fridays and First Saturdays, and after my dad was severely disabled by a stroke and brain tumor, managed to get myself and my three siblings all through Catholic grade and high schools.

One day, a few years ago, I asked her what she thought was the most significant change coming from Vatican 2. Without even thinking, she said “Oh, the Mass in English!”

When I asked her what she thought about that change, she responded that she loved it. Never, ever, did she say anything about Latin; but she strongly appreciated having the Mass in her language. She, and the great majority of people from her age group to those born somewhere around the late 1950’s - early 1960’s, are not particularly sophisticated about rubrics; they might be able to tell you about some of the differences, but with the exception of whether the priests faces liturgical East or not, most of them seem to have no opinion on the matter.

There are radicalized people on both ends of the spectrum, and it is my observation that there are more on the liberal end than there are on the conservative end; but that has a lot to do with a combination of events and the cultural sea change that occurred in the 1960’s outside the Church as well as inside. And part of the driving force of the change within the Church had more to do with the explosion of commentary coming out of what suddenly seemed to be fame amongst theologians, and from there, into the pews, of the idea that seemingly the Church was going to “throw off” the “oppression of the past” (meaning, both doctrinal and moral) and become something new. People with not a lot more than the Baltimore Catechism for their foundations flowed along, as the bishops in large part seemed overwhelmed with the reactions, and failed in leadership.

And so we still have amongst us those 60+, 70+ and 80+ “elders” who make up the largest part of the liberals.

And has been noted thoroughly in the recent past, the liberal organizations who want to “remake” the Church are greying out, getting old, dying, and not being replaced in those organizations by new blood. In short, it is all in the process of self-correcting.

Within those liberal groups, I suspect that one will hear speech between dismissive and hateful. However, it is just as misguided to presume that they speak for the great number of Catholics who don’t identify either as liberal or as conservative; those who are busy with jobs, families, and parish activities and are trying to follow the Magisterium and Christ as best they can.

The short of it is that there are some, on the liberal end, who couldn’t say anything civil, let alone nice, about the EF if you paid them. They are a minority, but one should not be surprised that there are some on that end of the spectrum any more than that there are some on the other end. Most people simply do not want to go to a Mass in Latin (EF or OF), but that does not equate with hating the EF. Their concern is not about what someone else prefers, but rather about what they prefer; they have no objection to a Mass in Vietnamese, but definitely choose not to attend it. And that is different than hating it.
 
In discussions such as this, there has been a tendency for some who prefer the EF to peak about others “hating” Latin. That has a tendency to cloud issues and make discussion difficult at best.

Perhaps an anecdote may help: my mother born in 1917, was fourth generation in a line of Dutch Catholics who emigrated from Holland. Her graduating high school class consisted of 5 students, all of who grew up in a rural farming community, and most or all of those students could trace family back to the original 12 founding families.

She never went beyond high school (though she might have made a good engineer); and was a faithful, and relatively simple Catholic all her life. As a family we made Mother of Perpetual Help devotions (which never seemed to end), First Fridays and First Saturdays, and after my dad was severely disabled by a stroke and brain tumor, managed to get myself and my three siblings all through Catholic grade and high schools.

One day, a few years ago, I asked her what she thought was the most significant change coming from Vatican 2. Without even thinking, she said “Oh, the Mass in English!”

When I asked her what she thought about that change, she responded that she loved it. Never, ever, did she say anything about Latin; but she strongly appreciated having the Mass in her language. She, and the great majority of people from her age group to those born somewhere around the late 1950’s - early 1960’s, are not particularly sophisticated about rubrics; they might be able to tell you about some of the differences, but with the exception of whether the priests faces liturgical East or not, most of them seem to have no opinion on the matter.

There are radicalized people on both ends of the spectrum, and it is my observation that there are more on the liberal end than there are on the conservative end; but that has a lot to do with a combination of events and the cultural sea change that occurred in the 1960’s outside the Church as well as inside. And part of the driving force of the change within the Church had more to do with the explosion of commentary coming out of what suddenly seemed to be fame amongst theologians, and from there, into the pews, of the idea that seemingly the Church was going to “throw off” the “oppression of the past” (meaning, both doctrinal and moral) and become something new. People with not a lot more than the Baltimore Catechism for their foundations flowed along, as the bishops in large part seemed overwhelmed with the reactions, and failed in leadership.

And so we still have amongst us those 60+, 70+ and 80+ “elders” who make up the largest part of the liberals.

And has been noted thoroughly in the recent past, the liberal organizations who want to “remake” the Church are greying out, getting old, dying, and not being replaced in those organizations by new blood. In short, it is all in the process of self-correcting.

Within those liberal groups, I suspect that one will hear speech between dismissive and hateful. However, it is just as misguided to presume that they speak for the great number of Catholics who don’t identify either as liberal or as conservative; those who are busy with jobs, families, and parish activities and are trying to follow the Magisterium and Christ as best they can.

The short of it is that there are some, on the liberal end, who couldn’t say anything civil, let alone nice, about the EF if you paid them. They are a minority, but one should not be surprised that there are some on that end of the spectrum any more than that there are some on the other end. Most people simply do not want to go to a Mass in Latin (EF or OF), but that does not equate with hating the EF. Their concern is not about what someone else prefers, but rather about what they prefer; they have no objection to a Mass in Vietnamese, but definitely choose not to attend it. And that is different than hating it.
We had religion class. I was there in the late 1950s and early 1960s. We were taught. We understood. We loved our priests and nuns. But then the late 1960s came and the radicals and dissidents inside the Church did their best to confuse and damage it.

wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704586504574654282563939764

In coordination with those of like mind outside the Church.

Even the secular press is taking note of the interest in the Latin Mass.

usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/03/12/catholicism-latin-mass-resurgence/70214976/

Ed
 
otjm, that was an enjoyable and insightful read. A good addition to the conversation. Your Catholic family history is interesting.
 
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