Splitting hairs about masturbation?

[blessedtoo]

Also, if you are married, you may not be able to commit the sin of masturbation. I think, from reading the text, that is a grey area. Other posters have said that anything is ok in a marriage as long as sperm winds up properly in the woman.

Actually, it is not a grey area at all. It is quite clear when taken within the context of Church teaching on marriage. And I am speaking of Church teaching here, not various opinions presented by lay theologians and anonymous posters.

If you have inferred from the countless threads on CAF about marital relations that “anything goes”, you are being misguided, IMO. There are many here who subscribe to that modernistic view of marital relations, but that hasn’t always been the case, nor is it backed by any official Church declarations. What you are reading is personal opinions, mine included. It is best, when in doubt, to do your own research and speak with an orthodox priest.

 

[larry85704]

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.” 138 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of “the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.” 139

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that can lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

Is this paragraph 2352? Did I get the wrong web site, or something?

Doesn’t the first sentence define masturbation? I don’t understand theology much, but in math you can say y is x plus 4, or y = x + 4. Isn’t the Catechism defining masturbation here?

Do you always choose secular definitions of a word as preferrable to the definitions presented in the Catechism? Are we a Church of Websters dictionary and the Catechism? By the way, where did you get that definition?

 

[jmcrae]

Ok, are you saying it does not make any difference if it is a mortal sin or not?

In a way I agree with you, sin is sin, but the teachings of our Church make mortal sin a big deal. So, based on the teachings of the Church, I’d say it is a big deal if it is a mortal sin or not.

If you think you did it, just go to Confession, and don’t worry about it after that. We are allowed to confess venial sins in Confession, so if it turns out at the Judgement Day that it was only a venial sin, then you did no harm, but if it was a mortal sin, and you didn’t confess it, that’s a whole other problem.

There are also related issues around inappropriate sexual fantasizing and lust, and if these are happening even without the masturbation, you still should probably go to Confession anyway, and just get rid of it that way, instead of obsessing over whether you have to go to Confession or not.

 

[blessedtoo]

Is this paragraph 2352? Did I get the wrong web site, or something?

Doesn’t the first sentence define masturbation? I don’t understand theology much, but in math you can say y is x plus 4, or y = x + 4. Isn’t the Catechism defining masturbation here?

Do you always choose secular definitions of a word as preferrable to the definitions presented in the Catechism? Are we a Church of Websters dictionary and the Catechism? By the way, where did you get that definition?

Yes, the CCC is defining masturbation and there is no conflict with the definition I posted from dictionary.com. I was responding to this comment:

The catechism does not describe how the stimulation occurs, so it doesn’t matter. Also, if you are married, you may not be able to commit the sin of masturbation. I think, from reading the text, that is a grey area. Other posters have said that anything is ok in a marriage as long as sperm winds up properly in the woman.

and this comment:

The paragraph doesn’t say anything about how you stimulate yourself. Then read the second part. If that isn’t a loophole, I am a goose.

Based on both definitions, deliberate stimulation of the genitals in order to achieve sexual pleasure is masturbation.

 

[larry85704]

Ok. I am glad you agree that the Church defines masturbation. I’ll agree that the definition from the dictionary is essentially the same as the Church’s. Why bring up the dictionary.com version? Generally, I would use the Church version only when discussing Church issues.

In a marriage there is going to be, hopefully, much stimulation of the genitals. Suppose you have a quiet time at work. Your spouse is miles away. You think about your spouse in a way that arouses you. I don’t see how that is masturbation. Yet, there is no way that is a mutual activity. I think that if you are aroused by thoughts of your spouse that is probably healthy and normal.

I can imagine where thinking about your spouse would be deliberate. Pleasure would be received. And quite possibly you would stimulate yourself. Now the catechism does not mention orgasm so you don’t have to have one to meet the definition. In both definition orgasm does not need to occur for masturbation to occur. When at work you are not touching yourself in any way.

Now does it make more sense why the Catechism excludes the married couple and the popular definition does not?

 

[blessedtoo]

Ok. I am glad you agree that the Church defines masturbation. I’ll agree that the definition from the dictionary is essentially the same as the Church’s. Why bring up the dictionary.com version? Generally, I would use the Church version only when discussing Church issues.

In a marriage there is going to be, hopefully, much stimulation of the genitals. Suppose you have a quiet time at work. Your spouse is miles away. You think about your spouse in a way that arouses you. I don’t see how that is masturbation. Yet, there is no way that is a mutual activity. I think that if you are aroused by thoughts of your spouse that is probably healthy and normal.

I can imagine where thinking about your spouse would be deliberate. Pleasure would be received. And quite possibly you would stimulate yourself. Now the catechism does not mention orgasm so you don’t have to have one to meet the definition. In both definition orgasm does not need to occur for masturbation to occur. When at work you are not touching yourself in any way.

Now does it make more sense why the Catechism excludes the married couple and the popular definition does not?

Correct me if I am wrong, but what you seem to be describing is lust, which is why I posted the CCC definition of lust.
**

**2351 *Lust ***

is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes**
If thinking about one’s spouse cases one to experience sexual pleasure and one continues to indugle in such thoughts (fantasies), one would be engaging in lustful behavior. The scenario you described above would necessarily preclude the ability to fulfill the procreative and unitive purpose of marital sex, in fact isolating only the enjoyment of physical pleasure alone.

 

[geraldffff]

hmmm interesting discussion. The old priest who married us in 1972 said there were no boundary’s in the marital bed and he was not going to comment on them.

 

[Beautiful]

Apparently some women are sensitive enough in areas of the body–areas above the waist or below the knee–that they can achieve pleasure without going near the obvious places. In effect, they can masturbate without ANY stimulation of the genital organs whatsoever.

Jesus split no hairs about this question.

But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matthew 5:28

These words of Jesus are meant for woman as well.

But I say to you, everyone who looks at a man with lust has already committed adultery with him in her heart.Matthew5:28

Yes, some woman are sensitive enough to achieve orgasm by just looking. I would think this is lust if purposely pursued - and not lust if it happens as a result of an unexpected glance at a stimulating man. Certainly it would be adultery if purposely provoked in a situation where either the woman was married or the male subject were married and not to each other. Looking could mean looking with the eye of the mind and not necessarily with the eyeball. Our brains are the largest sex organs we have.
Custody of the eyes is difficult but necessary at all times.

And Jesus gives the same sound advice - custody

If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into Gehenna.
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body go into Gehenna. Matthew 5

 

[Beautiful]

I would also like to add that I once viewed a wonderful 1978 Movie – The Tree of Wooden Clogs by Ermanno Olmi.

The IMDB description goes like this:

An artistic masterpiece that almost any observant Catholic will cherish, especially an Italian Catholic. It is unclear how nonbelievers will connect to the film. By watching the film one discovers that while material possessions may make life easier they certainly can be a stumbling block on the path to sanctity. These peasants really put late twentieth century American Catholics to shame.

The film slowly unveils to the viewers one year in the life of Italian peasants at the close of the nineteenth century.

Part of the movie depicts a young couple falling in love. The young man always keeps a careful and respectful distance throughout their courtship and the young woman is careful to watch her eyes and distance as well. At one point the young man finds her alone on a road and he asks for a kiss. She pauses and politely says “ Those are things that happen when the time comes.” She then smiles with almost veiled eyes and moves on. Sadly, the mating game today isn’t what it used to be.
By the way - The Tree of Wooden Clogs by Ermanno Olmi is on the Vatican Top 45 choice movies. You can locate this list at the USBishops website.

 

[larry85704]

If thinking about one’s spouse cases one to experience sexual pleasure and one continues to indugle in such thoughts (fantasies), one would be engaging in lustful behavior. The scenario you described above would necessarily preclude the ability to fulfill the procreative and unitive purpose of marital sex, in fact isolating only the enjoyment of physical pleasure alone.

2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

I would like you to find a Church teaching that says thinking about, or desiring, sex with your spouse is disordered. I think it would be very difficult to not think about sex with your spouse when you are apart. Why do you think that is disordered? If anything, thinking about sex with your spouse would be part of the unitive aspect of sex, wouldn’t it? You know, I am getting older, but thinking about sex with my wife is usually the first step toward having sex. And yes, thinking about sex with her can get me aroused, but not as much I am used to anymore. Too bad, again, getting older.

I have found marriage to be a source of pleasure all the time. Not just when I think about sex. My wife, and the bond we have, is a much better, richer source of pleasure than sex.

Now, if you got turned on by thinking about your neighbor I’d say you had a problem with lust. Or, if you thought about your wife and decided to “relieve yourself” in anyway but with your wife that would also be a no-no.

This is starting to get weird.

Larry.

 

[ChangingHeart]

Apparently some women are sensitive enough in areas of the body–areas above the waist or below the knee–that they can achieve pleasure without going near the obvious places. In effect, they can masturbate without ANY stimulation of the genital organs whatsoever.

You’ve just given all of us who are struggling with lust something else to sinfully fantasize about. Catholic message boards should be a safe haven against that.

What is this that some other poster said about orgasm not being required for it to constitute “masturbation?” I would think, at least from a male perspective that if orgasm was neither attained nor desired, the man is not guilty of masturbation. This is not to say he isn’t guilty of lustful thoughts that created arousal, but masturbation? I was under the impression that orgasm was required, or at the very least intended. If someone can show me Church documents that say otherwise, I will obviously accept the Church teachings, but I thought that achieving orgasm was what made masturbation masturbation, and that otherwise, it was just disordered thought that created arousal.

 

[Beautiful]

You’ve just given all of us who are struggling with lust something else to sinfully fantasize about. Catholic message boards should be a safe haven against that.

I disagree here. The OP has a legitimate question. I go one further than him and say that stimulation of the largest sexual organ – the brain is all that is necessary to bring about the same results as intentional manipulation of sex organs for the purpose of masturbation. Read my post #28. Jesus is clear on this point. Many fail to see that the eye/brain connection is the first that Jesus mentions and condemns…

But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matthew 5:28 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into Gehenna.
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body go into Gehenna. Matthew 5

The OP says

I realize that this is an arcane example, but I’m hoping that your (name removed by moderator)ut will be structured in a way that will help me better form my conscience when drawing lines about more common behaviors.

The OP is asking for guidance in a world that is loaded with sexual promiscuity and lust.

 

[ChangingHeart]

I disagree here. The OP has a legitimate question. I go one further than him and say that stimulation of the largest sexual organ – the brain is all that is necessary to bring about the same results as intentional manipulation of sex organs for the purpose of masturbation. Read my post #28. Jesus is clear on this point. Many fail to see that the eye/brain connection is the first that Jesus mentions and condemns…

You are wrongfully equating lust with masturbation. They are not the same thing. Lust is an inward disposition of the mind and heart. It is sin in the area of the thought life. Masturbation is an external action, sin in the area of what we have done. Lust can lead to masturbation, and is almost always a precipitating factor, but lust is not synonymous with masturbation.

As a man who was doing well, today, avoiding lustful thoughts, until I read the original post, you can disagree all you want with what I said, but I am FACTUALLY right, and you are FACTUALLY wrong. That isn’t to say that the OP didn’t have good intentions, but the bottom line is that the original post became a stumbling block for me when I read it.

You must be a woman, because, no offense, you are clueless as to how this applies to men.

As for it being the first that Jesus mentions and condemns, there is nothing in Scripture that clearly indicates that the woman at the well incident found in John 4 happened after the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5. Just because the books of the Bible are arranged that way, does not mean the events necessarily occurred in that sequence. This may sound trite and petty, but your quote that starts with the words, “many fail to see…” reeks of the sin of pride, suggesting that you have some sort of special knowledge that, “many fail to see,” when in reality your own special knowledge is flawed, and even if it was correct, how does it become more prevalent, just because Jesus happened to say it first? He was asked what the most important commandments were, and Matthew 5:28 was not directly stated in His answer, although it is inclusive in love God with all your mind, soul, heart, and strength.

 

[geraldffff]

You are wrongfully equating lust with masturbation. They are not the same thing. Lust is an inward disposition of the mind and heart. It is sin in the area of the thought life. Masturbation is an external action, sin in the area of what we have done. Lust can lead to masturbation, and is almost always a precipitating factor, but lust is not synonymous with masturbation.

As a man who was doing well, today, avoiding lustful thoughts, until I read the original post, you can disagree all you want with what I said, but I am FACTUALLY right, and you are FACTUALLY wrong. That isn’t to say that the OP didn’t have good intentions, but the bottom line is that the original post became a stumbling block for me when I read it.

You must be a woman, because, no offense, you are clueless as to how this applies to men.
.

you are absolutely correct and put it a whole lot better than I could have, thanks.

 

[littleflower_24]

Ok, so I’m having ALOT of difficulty keepong away from masturbation, and have tried everything-but am still be drawn into it by temptation and it’s now a habitual act.

Wether it is habitual or not, I know it’s wrong so it’s a mortal sin.
Worse, I go to communion with the sin on my soul which is sacreligous because I don’t want my parents questioning why I didn’t go to communion.

I go to connfetion every 3-4 days and it still doesn’t work.

HELP!

 

[CuriousInIL]

You’ve just given all of us who are struggling with lust something else to sinfully fantasize about. Catholic message boards should be a safe haven against that.

What is this that some other poster said about orgasm not being required for it to constitute “masturbation?” I would think, at least from a male perspective that if orgasm was neither attained nor desired, the man is not guilty of masturbation. This is not to say he isn’t guilty of lustful thoughts that created arousal, but masturbation? I** was under the impression that orgasm was required, or at the very least intended. If someone can show me Church documents that say otherwise, I will obviously accept the Church teachings, but I thought that achieving orgasm was what made masturbation masturbation**, and that otherwise, it was just disordered thought that created arousal.

Here again is the teaching in the CCC

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.” “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of “the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.”
To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

Is there anything in there that requires orgasm? Nope. So that’s the teaching.

 

[jmcrae]

Ok, so I’m having ALOT of difficulty keepong away from masturbation, and have tried everything-but am still be drawn into it by temptation and it’s now a habitual act.

Wether it is habitual or not, I know it’s wrong so it’s a mortal sin.
Worse, I go to communion with the sin on my soul which is sacreligous because I don’t want my parents questioning why I didn’t go to communion.

I go to connfetion every 3-4 days and it still doesn’t work.

HELP!

Start praying the Hail Mary as soon as the kind of thoughts that lead to this behaviour come into your mind. Also, get up and start walking around - some place public.

Visualize the thoughts you are having as though they were photographs or writing on paper, and then visualize a big fire burning them up, while continuing to pray the Hail Mary.

The most important things are: don’t sit still, and don’t be alone, and think of something else, if you can.

Also, take care of any personal needs that might be causing the trigger - for example, if you are hungry, or if you have to use the bathroom, or if you are sleepy, etc., then just look after that, while doing your best to focus on your Hail Marys as much as possible. Other prayers that I have found helpful in a similar situation are the Guardian Angel Prayer, the Act of Contrition, and the Prayer to St. Michael.

PS: Also put aside any images or reading that may be triggering these thoughts and actions, as well - for example, if you are watching a TV show or reading a book, and something from that is causing these thoughts and feelings to occur, then just turn off the TV set or put away the book, and do something else for a while.

 

[geraldffff]

Start praying the Hail Mary as soon as the kind of thoughts that lead to this behaviour come into your mind. Also, get up and start walking around - some place public.

Visualize the thoughts you are having as though they were photographs or writing on paper, and then visualize a big fire burning them up, while continuing to pray the Hail Mary.

The most important things are: don’t sit still, and don’t be alone, and think of something else, if you can.

Also, take care of any personal needs that might be causing the trigger - for example, if you are hungry, or if you have to use the bathroom, or if you are sleepy, etc., then just look after that, while doing your best to focus on your Hail Marys as much as possible. Other prayers that I have found helpful in a similar situation are the Guardian Angel Prayer, the Act of Contrition, and the Prayer to St. Michael.

PS: Also put aside any images or reading that may be triggering these thoughts and actions, as well - for example, if you are watching a TV show or reading a book, and something from that is causing these thoughts and feelings to occur, then just turn off the TV set or put away the book, and do something else for a while.

This above advice is great advice. Squeeze out the reoccurring negative and counter productive thoughts with a repetitive prayer though that Pleases Jesus and allows him to put you in control of yourself.

 

[ChangingHeart]

Here again is the teaching in the CCC

Quote:
2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure…

Is there anything in there that requires orgasm? Nope. So that’s the teaching.

That is not sufficient. What constitutes, “sexual pleasure,” if not orgasm? Does merely getting an erection constitute “sexual pleasure?” Without intention of orgasm, erections can often be annoying and unwelcome, and very far from constituting “sexual pleasure.” That wording is far too vague to generate a conclusion. I’m sorry, but you are going to need more than that quote from the Catechism to convince me that (at least male) masturbation does NOT require orgasm to be masturbation.

I’m not debating whether it is sinful or not, as all lustful thoughts are sinful, but it seems as if you are also equating lust, and the natural physical results of lust with masturbation. Again, I must say that they are not synonymous.

Is “derive sexual pleasure,” synonymous with “achieve orgasm?” I would say “no” to that, too, in that sexual pleasure can be an emotional concept as well.

Now, can a man intentionally generate sexual pleasure from his own genitals without desiring or achieving orgasm? Perhaps if he specifically intended to stop immediately before orgasm, then I can maybe see that constituting masturbation, if he is going through the motions, yet deliberately not bringing the act to completion(orgasm.) I can maybe see that, but that isn’t what we seem to be talking about here, at least not as far as the original post is concerned.

What we’re talking about is actions that may cause the genitalia to be stimulated, but that are done for the emotional and physical sexual pleasure of other parts of the anatomy, and will additionally stimulate the genitalia, even though the genitalia stimulation is irrelevant to the intentions of the person, and where the so called “sexual pleasure,” that is being sought is not a result or an ends that centers around the genitalia, but that such stimulation of the genitalia is merely a side-effect, possibly even an unwelcome and unintentional side effect. There is no doubt that this is still sinful. The question at hand, however, is does this constitute “masturbation.” Based on the definition provided in the Catechism, I feel we can not decisively conclude either way.

 

[mercygate]

Ok, so I’m having ALOT of difficulty keepong away from masturbation, and have tried everything-but am still be drawn into it by temptation and it’s now a habitual act.

Wether it is habitual or not, I know it’s wrong so it’s a mortal sin.
Worse, I go to communion with the sin on my soul which is sacreligous because I don’t want my parents questioning why I didn’t go to communion.

I go to connfetion every 3-4 days and it still doesn’t work.

HELP!

This is so sorry! Many young people struggle with this (few of them as earnestly as you do!). Take up the matter in confession. As you have read on this thread, for you, the force of the habit may be making this a venial sin, so although the ACT is matter of mortal sin, your personal circumstance could make it possible for you to receive Communion without sacrilege. Don’t presume, though. Don’t take our word for it. Listen to your confessor.

God love you. I hope you have a good priest who can work with you.

This is a habit that can sap the strength out of a marriage. I’m guessing you are a teen. Now is the time to fight the battle. God love ya!