Splitting the Roman Catholic Church

  • Thread starter Thread starter SpiritMeadow
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Just so you know, “America” is a dissident Catholic publication, and not only as regards abortion. But, as with the order which publishes it, it will either reform eventually, or disappear in time.
Ridgerunner:

A thought about Jesuits. I have known many Jesuits over the years, some are so pious and conservative as to make the Holy Father look Protestant. Other Jesuits can’t even really be called Catholic, or even Christian for that matter. The Order should reform, but barring that, it should split. These priests and brothers (yes, there are Jesuit brothers) should not be unevenly yoked,

Likewise, I have for years looked forward to a schism in the Church. The schism will be based on fidelity to doctrine, either you are obedient to Rome or you are not. My vision of this schism is that the Catholics who reject fidelity to Rome will just wander off and become Episcapalian or something.
 
No doubt Obama appoints pro abortion people because he is pro-abortion himself. It has a great deal to do with Catholics, however.
It’s sad that, for whatever reason, there are so few Catholic politicians that are pro-life. The only one I can think of is Sam Brownback, and he’s retired more or less.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread topic.
 
It’s sad that, for whatever reason, there are so few Catholic politicians that are pro-life. The only one I can think of is Sam Brownback, and he’s retired more or less.
Christopher Smith … Alan Keyes
 
Ridgerunner:

A thought about Jesuits. I have known many Jesuits over the years, some are so pious and conservative as to make the Holy Father look Protestant. Other Jesuits can’t even really be called Catholic, or even Christian for that matter. The Order should reform, but barring that, it should split. These priests and brothers (yes, there are Jesuit brothers) should not be unevenly yoked,

Likewise, I have for years looked forward to a schism in the Church. The schism will be based on fidelity to doctrine, either you are obedient to Rome or you are not. My vision of this schism is that the Catholics who reject fidelity to Rome will just wander off and become Episcapalian or something.
I don’t think that schism is something to look forward to, but I see your point.

We Orthodox see a parallel in how the Latin church took off on it’s own. Yes, it was painful, but it spared us some of the worst to come later, so in a sense it was a mixed blessing!

I would suggest that, rather than push the rascals out, the RC address their non-doctrinal concerns sincerely and work extremely hard at pulling the various factions together with the hierarchy. Once a schism (if that is really what might happen) gets going it is extremely hard to reverse.
 
No doubt Obama appoints pro abortion people because he is pro-abortion himself. It has a great deal to do with Catholics, however. First of all because he is packing the government with people who, if one follows Church teachings, support the murder of innocents. That’s not a small thing. From the genuinely Catholic perspective, it’s a very big thing. Secondly, because people appointed to high places are often thought by some to be models of what they, themselves, should aspire to. Obama appoints visibly dissident Catholics to very visible posts; posts that require of some of them, at least, that they dirty their hands by active involvement in abortion; e.g., Daschle, Sebelius, Alexis Kelley. He went to a (at least nominally) Catholic University and promoted abortion acceptance there. It goes on and on. If you don’t see any pattern, then okay, you don’t.

Every high school debater can string three sentences together; some quite well. While that might be more pleasant to listen to than Bush’s stumbling prose, it’s hardly unique and, of itself, not particularly noteworthy. Obama’s speech is every bit as stumbling as Bush’s unless he’s reading it. Bush seemed averse to simply reading a speech verbatim a great deal of the time, and wasn’t very good at it when he did. Likely, he wasn’t trained to do it. But none of that means anything, except inasmuch as a smooth style might more easily persuade.
This thread is NOT about Obama. For the record Obama is not pro-abortion. Nobody is. Pro choice is the term, and you use the former as a means to incite anger, I think.

You somehow claim that because Obama appoints pro-choice people he is anti-Catholic. I guess you forgot that the bible belt evangelical fundamentalists have been anti choice/abortion for at least as long as you have.

As I said, back on topic please.
 
I really like this post - so thanks OP. I think those who consider themselves more orthodox shouldn’t be saying we get rid of the liberal ones. Rather, we need to beckon them back to our faith. I fell away from the faith and came back, but it wasn’t because people rammed my inaccurate beliefs down my throat. The Holy Spirit worked on me in a variety of ways and all of us should strive to do that with our brothers and sisters. I harp on this a lot, but quite a Catholics in their 30s and 40s were barely catechized at all and have never really understood why the Church takes the positions that she does. They need to be assisted to see why we believe what we do and let the Holy Spirit do the rest. We don’t need to split, just help each other see the beauty of our faith :signofcross:
I see your point and frankly tend to agree. Rather than splits and purges through “crackdowns” you seem to suggest that Catholics need to dialog about their differences and try to work them out? I feel the same about my own faith traditions problems. Let’s hope the Spirit brings us all to a peaceful endeavor such as you suggest.
 
Why is this thread so determined to become an abortion discussion?
One or two here are trying to derail the discussion. Ignore them. If it continues I’ll ask for assistence from the forum monitors.
 
Interesting thread with longer legs than I expected!

Many posts seem to assume a tension between just two major groups in the catholic church, for lack of better terms, the traditionalists (broadly defined as those who believe in the historic doctrines on sin, salvation and sacramental life) and the social gospel wings.

But i don’t think this is really the case. I think the above leaves out by far the largest group of all: those who know there is a God and believe that He loves us and sent His Son for us, but don’t really have all that much idea where to go from there. They don’t HAVE strong convictions on either side of the struggle and really just want to feel comfortable that they’ve adequately sought God in this life. (I’m not entirely doing justice to their thought process, but give me a break. I’m an engineer, not a writer.) These aren’t bad people, they’re not heretics or extremists. For whatever reason, they just haven’t caught on fire with the Holy Spirit yet or haven’t yet made a connection between Grace and everyday life.

I happen to be with Ridgerunner on the challenge to prove the Vatican sentiment, especially the claim that it comes from the pope himself. I’ve certainly heard that the Vatican itself contains both factions, so I would NOT be surprised to hear this sentiment from a Curia official. But you just aren’t going to hear it from BXVI.

Many “pro-choice” people like to call people like me “narrow minded, single issue” voters. That’s OK. They said the same thing about every other human rights early adopters in history too - abolitionists, women’s suffrage, 60’s civil rights activists… It just comes down to what you believe abortion really is. If you consider it merely the killing of a random clump of cells, then why WOULD you consider it a larger issue than the food stamp budget? Nobody who thought the black man was subhuman much worried about the morality of slavery, did they? But if you see the unborn as human beings, how can you NOT consider abortion THE civil rights issue of the century? What other issue kills 50 million human beings in less than half a lifetime? How can you remotely keep a straight face and argue that tax burden fairness or unemployment compares in severity?
 
How about the crackdown on Liberation Theology, back in the 1980s?

This thread makes for interesting speculation, but I don’t think a split is at all likely. The Vatican lives in horror at the thought of schism - consider it’s decades long effort to woo the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Church (the Chinese government’s official Catholic Church), Or consider the Vatican’s willingness to eat humble pie in order to get the schismatic SSPX back into its fold. The Catholic Church will take great pains to avoid a split.

The SSPX formed in reaction to the dramatic changes of Vatican II. If something as earthshaking as Vat II only produces the relatively small SSPX, I can’t see any sizable split coming from lesser causes.

I think abortion is very much a rallying issue for conservative Catholics, but I am not sure that it has an equal pull for liberal Catholics. Referring to “two factions” may be an overstatement. I think there is one faction which is mobilized over abortion, but I am not sure there is a counter-faction.
Thanks for your views. It seems that one side is rather mobilized and the other actually somewhat unaware that there is any thing going on much at all. I am not sure where my church falls on the determination to avoid further splitting.

I suspect that most middle of the road Catholics, and I suspect they are by far the greater in number are fairly above the fray as it were. The real issues seem to be between the far left and far right. What news is that? LOL…

I hope you are right however that this doesn’t result in a split. I was rather surprised when I first heard Catholics suggesting it, and then several suggesting that the less than “real” Catholics should just leave. I recall a thread some time ago entitled, “why don’t dissenters just leave the Church?” and they seemed quite serious in their request. It was certainly asked of me a number of times before I in fact did leave.
 
I’d be interested to see the news/articles that you’ve seen. I’ve read this article, but it doesn’t actually say what you’re saying here.
Peter I left links on a post on Page 3 I think. This was after I had read a couple but didn’t save them. When I started to see more from various places, well I saved the last three. Then the remarks on another thread about the church splitting, suggested that there was a topic to discuss.
 
Like I stated above, I doubt that any such thing will happen, but I did come across this article.

Also here

I don’t know where all of this is heading. It’s quite obvious there is some kind of disconnect between the traditional Catholic church and the bulk of the modern American laity (and some priests) but all this talk about schism looks to be more geared toward selling articles with sensationalism.
Thanks Hesychios, the first link to the Australian site was very interesting. I had no idea frankly. You opinion is I think where the majority would come down, but who knows. Others have suggested that more dialog needs to be done, and I tend to think so. Talking is always better than not, lol…
 
Ridgerunner:

A thought about Jesuits. I have known many Jesuits over the years, some are so pious and conservative as to make the Holy Father look Protestant. Other Jesuits can’t even really be called Catholic, or even Christian for that matter. The Order should reform, but barring that, it should split. These priests and brothers (yes, there are Jesuit brothers) should not be unevenly yoked,

Likewise, I have for years looked forward to a schism in the Church. The schism will be based on fidelity to doctrine, either you are obedient to Rome or you are not. My vision of this schism is that the Catholics who reject fidelity to Rome will just wander off and become Episcapalian or something.
Marsha, do you see any other Christian denominations who are “pure” in the sense that you are advocating? Or do you see Rome as leading the way in that? Demanding a standard of belief that everyone is required to adhere to? Would it involve removing from the Church those who do not attend Mass regularly? Or some kind of oath? How would you determine who is faithful and who is to be put out?
 
Interesting thread with longer legs than I expected!

Many posts seem to assume a tension between just two major groups in the catholic church, for lack of better terms, the traditionalists (broadly defined as those who believe in the historic doctrines on sin, salvation and sacramental life) and the social gospel wings.

But i don’t think this is really the case. I think the above leaves out by far the largest group of all: those who know there is a God and believe that He loves us and sent His Son for us, but don’t really have all that much idea where to go from there. They don’t HAVE strong convictions on either side of the struggle and really just want to feel comfortable that they’ve adequately sought God in this life. (I’m not entirely doing justice to their thought process, but give me a break. I’m an engineer, not a writer.) These aren’t bad people, they’re not heretics or extremists. For whatever reason, they just haven’t caught on fire with the Holy Spirit yet or haven’t yet made a connection between Grace and everyday life.

I happen to be with Ridgerunner on the challenge to prove the Vatican sentiment, especially the claim that it comes from the pope himself. I’ve certainly heard that the Vatican itself contains both factions, so I would NOT be surprised to hear this sentiment from a Curia official. But you just aren’t going to hear it from BXVI.

Many “pro-choice” people like to call people like me “narrow minded, single issue” voters. That’s OK. They said the same thing about every other human rights early adopters in history too - abolitionists, women’s suffrage, 60’s civil rights activists… It just comes down to what you believe abortion really is. If you consider it merely the killing of a random clump of cells, then why WOULD you consider it a larger issue than the food stamp budget? Nobody who thought the black man was subhuman much worried about the morality of slavery, did they? But if you see the unborn as human beings, how can you NOT consider abortion THE civil rights issue of the century? What other issue kills 50 million human beings in less than half a lifetime? How can you remotely keep a straight face and argue that tax burden fairness or unemployment compares in severity?
I see your point, and I think I said pretty much the same thing. The vast bulk of Catholics are in the middle, the right and left are the activists.

I’m not sure I see the middle of the roaders indifferent to issues or somehow not on fire, but perhaps they choose other issues to be involved in?

I raised the issue of Obama in one context only, that more Catholics voted for him than not. This was misinterpreted to mean that I thought that had to do with something like immigration or something, so I said, no I thought the anti-Obama vote was largely because of abortion issues. That did not mean that this thread has anything to do with abortion or Obama, it was only to show the break in Catholics over a issue that is divisive.
 
Marsha, do you see any other Christian denominations who are “pure” in the sense that you are advocating? Or do you see Rome as leading the way in that? Demanding a standard of belief that everyone is required to adhere to? Would it involve removing from the Church those who do not attend Mass regularly? Or some kind of oath? How would you determine who is faithful and who is to be put out?
The Catholic Church is the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, you don’t get any more pure than that. Either one believes the doctrines of the Church or one does not. It isn’t a matter of a “standard of belief”, if by that you mean, "well, I pretty much 75% believe in the Real Presence, but to be Catholic in need to believe 90%. No, it is a matter of this is what the Church teaches and I choose to believe it, and sometimes my faith weakens, but even when my faith is weak, even when I can’t see Jesus in the consecrated Host, I still choose to believe.

And I am not talking about putting people out of the Church. I am talking about them packing up and leaving because they no longer believe what the Church teaches.
 
I see your point, and I think I said pretty much the same thing. The vast bulk of Catholics are in the middle, the right and left are the activists.

I’m not sure I see the middle of the roaders indifferent to issues or somehow not on fire, but perhaps they choose other issues to be involved in?
You are either more charitable than I am or live in an area more deeply rooted than I do. I honestly believe the majority in the pews wouldn’t know:
  1. If the Eucharist is a symbol or the actual body and blood of Christ (not open to opinion in catholicism).
  2. That we cannot be “good enough” through personal character development and excercise of virtue to deserve Heaven (this makes us easy meat for fundamentalists).
  3. The definition of Pentecost.
  4. If the book of Hebrews is in the new or old testament.
  5. That receiving communion with unconfessed mortal sin on one’s conscience is itself sinful.
How do I know? I’ve worked with literally thousands of young catholics across America about to “finish” their formal catholic education (before confirmation). Less than 15% know the above samples. That kind of ignorance isn’t just refusal to join one extreme or the other, it’s apathy. Jesus called it being “lukewarm.” He had other things to say about it too.

I hear you about the “middle of the roaders” who are involved in other issues. I’m one of those too. I get my “conservative credentials” questioned all the time when I side with the church on immigration justice against the ‘build a wall’ folks, get called a commie when I suggest we might spend less on health care if we adopt a two tier system (universal basic coverage and insurance required for advanced treatment), a socialist when I describe Distributism as superior to laizse faire capitalism… I don’t think that’s mostly the case though. Most people without an opinion just haven’t bothered to develop one. (IMO!)
 
Ridgerunner:

A thought about Jesuits. I have known many Jesuits over the years, some are so pious and conservative as to make the Holy Father look Protestant. Other Jesuits can’t even really be called Catholic, or even Christian for that matter. The Order should reform, but barring that, it should split. These priests and brothers (yes, there are Jesuit brothers) should not be unevenly yoked,

Likewise, I have for years looked forward to a schism in the Church. The schism will be based on fidelity to doctrine, either you are obedient to Rome or you are not. My vision of this schism is that the Catholics who reject fidelity to Rome will just wander off and become Episcapalian or something.
I agree that the Jesuits, as an order, have declined massively. I went to a Jesuit college and a Jesuit graduate school. When I started, most Jesuits were quite faithful to the Church and to the Pope, at least to all appearances. One of my professors was a close friend and collaborator with Cathkolic philosopher Jacques Maritain. By the time I got out of grad school, many had left and many had become radicalized. It has been downhill ever since.

Having said that, much later, one of my daugters became quite good friends with Fr. Schall, formerly at Georgetown, a very orthodox writer, and widely read columnist, and a good priest. Another became good friends with a very faithful Jesuit who wrote (just a few years ago) one of the best books on St. Thomas Aquinas I have ever read. My son became personally acquainted with a Jesuit in St. Louis, with whom he keeps up contact.

One very odd thing. Some Jesuit schools are really pretty faithful still. Some are far from it. I’m not sure how that happens. It might have more to do with the student body than anything else. Possibly they assign the more orthodox priests to the schools where more orthodox students might be expected to attend.

But as an order, the Jesuits have been in disarray for a long time. I don’t know what will happen. The order was once very important to the Church and, if it returned to orthodoxy as an institution, it could be again.

I’m not yet persuaded that there will be an “official” schism, notwithstanding that there is presently a “de facto” schism within the Church. Many, many of the dissidents were raised Catholic and it is my belief that many will return to fidelity as they age and are forced to consider their own mortality. Those who have departed from fidelity for, e.g., what they view as political expediency or personal aggrandizement, and justify themselves with the “seamless garment” (which is really “Liberation Theology Lite” argument will, I think, be the more likely to return. Some, I am sure, feel the burden of some past sin (abortion, divorce and remarriage) and, I trust, will ultimately cast it off. Others, I fear, have adopted some version of Liberation Theology in order to avoid confronting deep commitment to their own Luciferian pride or simple unbelief. For those, the return might be substantially more difficult. One hopes, of course, for the return of all.

As to many wandering off to become Episcopalians or something, I might make these observations (which aren’t really mine, but were Chesterton’s). By and large, when Catholics leave the Church, they don’t become anything in particular, they mostly become nothing in particular. He also said that the Catholic Church is for saints and sinners. For the merely respectable, the Anglican church will do.

I think, then, that, again, the real issue is sinfulness and whether we bury our consciences in denial. I remember having an argument of a sort with a Catholic who had a big problem with Humanae Vitae, and simply insisted that the Church is wrong when it comes to birth control because she couldn’t see how she could live her life without it. My observation to her was that it’s really much easier mentally to simply admit that one sinned, might sin again, but, at least for the moment, intends to at least try in the future to do differently. The lady actually accepted what I said (or said she did). One of the problems of our age, I think, is that pride is affirmed at every turn, whereas humility of mind and soul is not. That, in combination with our resolute denial when it comes to mortality, is deadly. That combination, I think, tends to encourage people to remain “buried” in their sinfulness.

I recall reading once that it was quite common in the Renaissance for people to sin on a scale even we moderns might find breathtaking. But they also repented and often reformed with equal gusto. “The Church for Saints and Sinners”. But the first step is admitting to our sinfulness; something we moderns do not much like to do.
 
I see your point, and I think I said pretty much the same thing. The vast bulk of Catholics are in the middle, the right and left are the activists.
I’m not sure “right” and “left” are adequate descriptors, and I suspect you would agree with that. It’s more “faithful” and “dissenting”, to varying degrees. It is my belief, and I’m not sure whether you would share it or not, that oftentimes people do veer “leftward” in a political sense as a substitute for real Christian fidelity. (e.g.,“I’m a good person. I voted for higher taxes to help the poor. The Church is just wrong about my encouraging my girlfriend to have an abortion. It was her rightful choice.” )

Very likely most Catholics have always been in “the middle”, in that laxity has always been a human failing. But nobody is “in the middle” when one wakes up at 3:00 a.m. with a sharp pain in one’s side and ponders the possibilities when it doesn’t go away. It’s kind of like the old saying “There are no atheists in foxholes”. We all have our journeys, and the shocks that are sometimes required to jar us back onto the proper path.

The dissent we have in the Church right now (though it might be correcting very slowly. I’m not sure) is, indeed, a scandal and an affront to God. Among the things we all need to consider during that confrontation with fear at 3:00 a.m. or whatever brings our thoughts to ultimate reality, is whom we might have led astray while we were “being right” as against the teachings of the Church. Those are pieces we really can’t go back and pick up. Those are part of our “permanent crosses” that we will either bear painfully, or throw down.
 
Spritmeadow:

I did not notice before that you are Episcopalian. I meant you no offense either in my paraphrase of Chesterton or in speaking of things Catholic as if you were also Catholic. Quite possibly, one of these days I will be more observant.
 
Spritmeadow:

I did not notice before that you are Episcopalian. I meant you no offense either in my paraphrase of Chesterton or in speaking of things Catholic as if you were also Catholic. Quite possibly, one of these days I will be more observant.
Shooting off on a tangent, I note that your first paraphrase is likely of the Chesterton “quote” that usually is given as something like “When a man stops believing in God, he doesn’t believe in nothing, he’ll believe in anything”.

It was for a long time the Holy Grail of Chesterton quotes, in that it was often cited, and never sourced. In fact, it is impossible to do so, though, like a number of Chesterton fans, I think the origin lies in a mistaken reference to words found in Emile Cammaert’s book on Chesterton, THE LAUGHING PROPHET.

The second quote is, I believe, Oscar Wilde’s.

I now return you to your thread.

GKC
 
Shooting off on a tangent, I note that your first paraphrase is likely of the Chesterton “quote” that usually is given as something like “When a man stops believing in God, he doesn’t believe in nothing, he’ll believe in anything”.

It was for a long time the Holy Grail of Chesterton quotes, in that it was often cited, and never sourced. In fact, it is impossible to do so, though, like a number of Chesterton fans, I think the origin lies in a mistaken reference to words found in Emile Cammaert’s book on Chesterton, THE LAUGHING PROPHET.

The second quote is, I believe, Oscar Wilde’s.

I now return you to your thread.

GKC
As you have adopted the nom de plume “GKC” one might not too greatly fear being wrong in assuming you have an encyclopedic familiarity with Chesterton. On that assumption, I am willing to concede your kind correction is likely accurate.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top