Sports activities vs Church

[jmcrae]

Cat, it’s great that your children are geniuses, and so athletic. You’re right to be proud of them.

I wish I could have been perfect at everything I did when I was a kid, too, but in my case, I had to prioritize, and with my Mom, that meant that Church came first, because God comes first, always, because to her, getting to Heaven is so much more important than receiving earthly honours - she always said, “it is better to be a star in Heaven than a star on earth.”

 

[Bluegoat]

I’m sure you realize that the second sentence in this post is a generalization.

I think the principle that he is referring to is a good one, however.

If children don’t get any practice with risk taking, making their own decisions, making judgments about people, etc., than when they are really independent, they will be going into it with no experience of either good or bad decisions.

As kids get older, we have to give them more freedom to make their own decisions and mistakes, so they make them on smaller, less important issues, and when parents and other adults are around to help them deal with any bad decisions. It also helps them build confidence in dealing with the world. Of course we should start when they are quite small, with small decisions.

If we over-schedual as a way of making sure they can’t get into trouble, that can sometimes be one way of making sure kids don’t get those chances. There are other ways parents do this, and kids who are active aren’t necessarily treated this way. But activity primarily to keep kids out of trouble can lead in that direction quite easily I think.

I was talking to a university prof recently, who said increasingly student’s parents are calling her about their kids marks, tests, or whatever. I was quite shocked. But it seems they have been “managed” their whole lives.

 

[jmcrae]

I was talking to a university prof recently, who said increasingly student’s parents are calling her about their kids marks, tests, or whatever. I was quite shocked. But it seems they have been “managed” their whole lives.

That is shocking. What’s going to happen to those poor people when they get jobs? Are Mummy and Daddy going to be phoning the supervisor to get the results of their annual reviews?

 

[Cat]

Cat, it’s great that your children are geniuses, and so athletic. You’re right to be proud of them.

I wish I could have been perfect at everything I did when I was a kid, too, but in my case, I had to prioritize, and with my Mom, that meant that Church came first, because God comes first, always, because to her, getting to Heaven is so much more important than receiving earthly honours - she always said, “it is better to be a star in Heaven than a star on earth.”

jmcrae, perhaps you don’t mean it this way, but this post comes across as sarcastic.

My children aren’t geniuses, and they aren’t any more athletic than any of the other thousands of figure skaters in the U.S.

And they were far from perfect when they were kids. They did a lot, and much of it was not perfect. Both of my girls did a lot of falling as skaters and in other aspects of their lives. I believe that the falls and mistakes helped develop their characters as much as the perfect things that they did.

One thing a skater learns is that the world goes on, God still loves you, and life is still good even though you take a dreadful fall right on your belly. That is a lesson that many people never learn.

And once again, I’ll remind you and others reading that until 2004, we were evangelical Protestants and that’s the way we raised our kids, and GOD DID COME FIRST in our family, and we lived this priority out in many tangible ways.

To begin with, evangelical Protestants have a different philosophy of “worship.” To an evangelical, worship is everything that we do and are and say. A worship service at church is no “better” worship than a practice at a skating rink. There is no such thing in the evangelical Protestant practice as “perfect worship,” as there is in Catholic tradition (the Mass). The concept didn’t exist for us.

I described in an earlier post that evangelicals are in church or involved with a Christian ministry 5-6 days/evenings a week, and I described the many and varied church ministries that we and our girls were involved with. There is no such thing as obligation Mass in the evangelical Protestant practice, so we were not doing any wrong (that we knew of) to miss Sunday worship service. Communion is only offered a few times a year in the evangelical church that we attended; in the evangelical Protestant tradition, a Christian doesn’t receive Jesus by means of a communion service, they receive Him through the prayer of faith. So we did no wrong to miss communion.

I also described earlier how we tried to be a Christian witness at the various rinks and skating clubs that we were involved with, and it worked. To this day, good programs are in place at these rinks, programs that came into being because of work that I did. We saw ourselves as Christian missionaries–again, in evangelical Protestant tradition, all of us are “missionaries” and all of us are called by God to “brighten the corner where we are.”

Finally the concept of “getting to heaven” is not a part of evangelical teaching. This concept did not exist for us. Evangelical Protestants believe that anyone who has asked Jesus into their heart to be their personal Savior and Lord WILL go to heaven. There is no such thing in evangelical teaching as “we hope to go to heaven.” Heaven is a done deal to evangelicals. So there was no reason why “getting to heaven” would be of any concern to us. We KNEW (invincible ignorance, of course) that we and our children would go to heaven.

Of course it is better to be a star in heaven than a star on earth. But there is nothing sinful about being a star on earth. God does call people to be “stars” on this earth. In fact, Phillippians 2:15 says, “…prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of sa crooked and perverse generation, among youm you appear as lights in the world.”

Many “stars” (world’s definition) on this earth are able to effect much good for the kingdom of God. E.g., a “star” like Mother Teresa, surely in her time one of the most recognized people on earth, helped many of the poor because she was able to recruit the financial and corporal support of many influential people in this world, and she was able to convince many people (especially Protestants, e.g., the Rev. Billy Graham) that the Catholic Church is a Christian Church. She was also able to draw many Catholics into a closer relationship with Jesus and with the Church.

One example of a figure skating “star” who glorified God and attracted people to Him was Janet Lynn. From childhood, Janet Lynn skated to the glory of God. Her motto was “Peace and Love.” Many figure skating fans consider her skating the “Gold Standard” of the sport. Many people around the world have been touched by her unwavoring Christian witness.

jmcrae, it is important to allow each Christian family to live out their Christian calling the way they feel is best. Some families will be very involved in many activities, while others will spend most of their time sequestered in their homes. Both approaches are good and and appropriate for Christians, and both can result in the raising of children who love God above all else. Both approaches can also be “bad” and can result in children who reject God, or who fail to live out a strong Christian testimony in their adult lives.

Parents have to determine between each other and God which approach they will lean towards when raising their children. We need to discern God’s individual plan for our families, and not use an approach just because it works for other families, or reject a plan because it didn’t work for other families. And we should be careful about criticizing the approach that other families use or used. There is no such thing as “one size fits all” when it comes to families and child-rearing.

Although we can learn from the mistakes and triumphs of others, we cannot say that what worked or didn’t work for one family will also work (or not work) for our family. Many families start out determined to raise their children a certain way, but things turn out very different (e.g., when a child is discovered to have an extraordinary talent in a sport or art form), and it often works out just fine.

 

[jmcrae]

jmcrae, perhaps you don’t mean it this way, but this post comes across as sarcastic.

It certainly was not intended to be sarcastic - I think it’s wonderful when people achieve so many great accomplishments.

However, in defending yourself against your perception of what I said, you’re really starting to make me worry that, in fact, figure skating is (or was) your religion.

To begin with, evangelical Protestants have a different philosophy of “worship.” To an evangelical, worship is everything that we do and are and say. A worship service at church is no “better” worship than a practice at a skating rink.

You say that you considered it a form of worship, to be at the skating rink - equal with anything that takes place in Church.

I also described earlier how we tried to be a Christian witness at the various rinks and skating clubs that we were involved with, and it worked. To this day, good programs are in place at these rinks, programs that came into being because of work that I did. We saw ourselves as Christian missionaries–again, in evangelical Protestant tradition, all of us are “missionaries” and all of us are called by God to “brighten the corner where we are.”

You felt that your Christian witness was taking place at the skating rink.

That’s a real alarm bell, right there. The skating rink is a place of recreation and fun - nothing more. This is exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of, when I posted earlier in this thread about people mistaking their sports activities for religious activities, and thinking that it makes no difference to God whether they are in Church or doing their sports.

I agree that we should be on our best behavior no matter where we go - but our religious activities most properly take place in Church. When we are doing recreation, it is certainly appropriate to invite people to Church, if the occasion arises in conversation - but one needs to be a Church-goer, in order to do this. Most of the Evangelicals I know do exactly that - they also consider it a Christian witness to not show up to recreational activities on Sundays, and to use the resulting questions about where they were as an opening for Christian evangelism.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

However, in defending yourself against your perception of what I said, you’re really starting to make me worry that, in fact, figure skating is (or was) your religion

This is an unnecessary and highly offensive comment on your part.

You say that you considered it a form of worship, to be at the skating rink - equal with anything that takes place in Church.

That’s a real stretch (twist?) from what I heard her say.

I interpret your comments as being passive aggressive. I don’t know what your problem is, but I think you should just leave Cat alone.

She is very interested in ice skating, and she keeps trying to explain her interest, and the more she explains the more you find to pick apart. I guess you missed the part where she said she was just as involved with her church ministries as she was with ice skating, and she was a Christian witness to many people through ice skating.

 

[Cat]

jmcrae, again, I’m have to tell you that you are demonstrating a complete lack of understanding and comprehension of evangelical Protestant Christianity.

Sorry about that. It is very difficult to comprehend something so different than what you have believed for many years. It was hard for me to grasp Catholicism, and my husband and I studied for three years before deciding to become Catholic.

**In fact, I believe that through this discourse, we have figured out exactly WHY sports and other activities have become so entrenched in families that they are able to plan practices and competitions on Sundays without serious objection from most parents.

It’s because of the rise in popularity of evangelical Protestantism in the last forty years.** Read the rest of this thread and see if you think we may have figured it out.

jmcrae and others, again, to an evangelical Protestant, “Church” is not any more worshipful than any other activity. This teaching is pure Calvinism, BTW, and many evangelical Protestant churches and denominations still have very deep Calvinist roots. The teaching is that “All of life is an act of worship.”

From what I know so far about the Catholic Church, that teaching is not Catholic, it’s Protestant.

So yes, to an evangelical Protestant, what happens at the skating rink is “equal” to what happens in church.

Of course, this isn’t the case in the Catholic Church, where the Mass is the highest form of worship that human beings can offer to God. But back then, I wasn’t IN the Catholic Church, and so I didn’t believe that. I didn’t even know what a “Mass” was or what it meant. I knew nothing or very little about Catholicism.

I’m thinking that perhaps many Catholics have picked up on this “All of life is worship” teaching, and that’s perhaps why they are willing to miss Mass for sports/arts, etc.–they have come to believe (through evangelical Protestant influence) that all of life is an act of worship to God.

Also, evangelical Protestants do not believe in “religion” or “religious activities.” In fact, for years, I wore a button that said, “I’m not religious, I’m a Christian.” To an evangelical Protestant. “religion” is “works of man,” and therefore, evangelical Protestants utterly reject the idea of practicing a “religions.” To an evangelical Christian, Christianity is a relationship with a Person, Jesus Christ. That relationship can be experienced anywhere, in any setting, including a skating rink.

And to evangelicals, there is no such thing as “religious activities.” Again, everything we do and say should bring honor and glory to the Lord Jesus Christ. That includes sports, arts, conversation, sex, cooking, taking care of children or elderly relatives, fixing a car, etc. This is what evangelical Protestants believe. Skating is no less “holy” than “praying” or “singing hymns” or any of the other activities that an evangelical Christian would do in church.

BTW, evangelical worship services done in church are not the same as Mass. Although a lot of Catholics on this board make statements that the Mass is “just like a Protestant service,” they are so very incorrect. An evangelical worship service is basically a “program” in which the congregation participates together in singing, praying, listening to preaching, giving money, etc. There is no concept of receiving Jesus in Holy Communion, or of participating in the Last Supper and the Holy Sacrifice of Jesus. It’s just a program, and that’s one reason why it is no more “spiritual” than sports or arts. It’s just one “option” for Sunday worship. Evangelicals believe that we receive Jesus through the prayer of faith, and that it is a ONE TIME experience, not something that occurs at every “worship service.”

The main reason why evangelicals get together in a corporate setting is because the Bible says we should (Hebrews 10: 23-25).

If you try to talk to an evangelical Christian about Catholicism and use the word, “Religion,” you will turn them away. They will THINK you are talking about ritualistic practices and ancient traditions of man. It would be best to use other words when talking to evangelical Christians because the concept of “religion” as something good and proper is NOT part of evangelical Protestant thinking. They don’t understand what you are talking about, just as you as having a hard time understanding the concept of “all of life is an act of worship.”

Finally, what is a “mission field?” Again, we are talking in circles here, as evangelical Protestants and Catholics have a different understanding. To an evangelical Protestant, almost ANYWHERE is a mission field. The very name, “evangelical” implies being a witness anywhere to Jesus Christ. Africa, Haiti, etc.–yes, these places are mission fields to evangelical Protestants. But so are neighborhoods, schools, workplaces, and yes, skating rinks. In fact, to many evangelical Protestants, “Catholics” are a mission field!

I am very surprised to hear you say that a skating rink is a place of “fun and recreation, nothing more.” That is, to me, even as a Catholic, a very non-Christian teaching, because to a Christian, every where in the world is where we give witness to the love and power of Jesus Christ. We don’t “stop being Christians” at skating rinks or anywhere. Christ lives in us and through us everywhere. In many places, the Bible talks about going into the world and preaching the Gospel, about being “ambassadors for Christ,” about being ready to give an answer for our faith.

The concept of “salt” is a good one. Salt flavors what is not salty, implying that we are to be “salt” to the world, not to the Church.

Same for the analogy of “light.” We are to be light to the dark places, not just in the Church. To go into a skating rink (or anywhere) with Jesus inside us is to light up that skating rink.

A skating rink was a place where people did not know about Jesus. As Christians, we tried to live out our faith and whenever possible, tell people about Jesus at the skating rink (usually through loving actions, not words).

I’m not talking about “being on our best behavior.” To me, that sounds like Christianity is nothing more than a “code of rules.” I’m talking about literally bringing Christ in Me to a dark and dyying world. When I walk, Christ walks. When I speak, Christ speaks. When my daughters skate, Christ skates (and I think He enjoys it!). When my husband and I attend a skating club meeting and lobby for a certain wholesome activity or program, Christ is lobbying. We are doing His work ANYWHERE we happen to be.

I hope I’ve done a good job trying to explain the differences between Catholic and evangelical Protestant Christianity. I think that’s the disconnect here. A Catholic cannot expect an evangelical Protestant to believe and practice the teachings of the Church.

 

[Brenda_V]

Cat - you are a very new Catholic coming from a different tradition of faith so you see it differently. I have to tell you that I am 51 and was raised in a very Catholic family, surrounded by Catholics went to Catholic schools for all but three years of my early education - I was taught that everything I did should be for the Glory of God and yes, the ultimate was assisting at Mass! So no your theory is wrong. Pick up a Baltimore Catechism and see what was taught years ago and still is taught by some parents.

Brenda V.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Well, Cat, I understood exactly what you were talking about, despite being Catholic and believing Sunday should be completely reserved so that the highest priority is Mass and nothing else is done that day. I am sure the reason why the conversation made perfect sense to me is because I am also a convert.

I have come across teachings and beliefs in the Catholic Church that I know on a spiritual level have nothing to do with the Church, and are simply Catholic cultural preferences and attitudes. I am not going to list them to avoid argument. When I come across something that has nothing to do with the Church, but is a particularly American 21st century Catholic cultural facet, and I find it offensive, I ignore it.

I think there are advantages and disadvantages to being a convert versus a cradle Catholic. One disadvantage many cradle Catholics appear to have is a blindness to the differences between culture and the Church. There are many good priests who seem to see those differences very well, though. I have always thought this is a special grace God has given some priests to lead Catholics correctly.

There are positive things and negative things about people, and you can’t broadly paint any individual based on stereotypes. Despite that, I have seen enough of Catholic behavior at this point to generalize. Speaking only in terms of negatives, and broadly characterizing the culture, rather than any individual, it seems very clear that they have more trouble with being very closed to understanding and empathizing with other people’s viewpoints and experiences than other groups of people. I also think they have a tendency to mis-use their authority over people. It probably goes without saying that my conversion was not influenced by any individual Catholic people.

On the other hand, like any group, they have some positive qualities.

I see the Church itself as being entirely independent of culture, and it’s rather fascinating to see how different Catholic culture has been and is in different times and places over the past 2000 years.

 

[jmcrae]

For what it’s worth, I’m also a convert, but my Protestantism didn’t include any idea of Sunday worship being optional, or going to sports being the same thing in God’s sight as going to Church, although we certainly has the same problem of kids skipping Sunday School for sports.

The Pope has told us to expect a winnowing-out of the flock of Jesus Christ - he believes that we are in the time of the separating of the tares from the wheat - and I suppose this is part of it. We have smaller numbers in Church, but a larger number of them have made a conscious and deliberate choice to be there.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

The Pope has told us to expect a winnowing-out of the flock of Jesus Christ - he believes that we are in the time of the separating of the tares from the wheat - and I suppose this is part of it. We have smaller numbers in Church, but a larger number of them have made a conscious and deliberate choice to be there.

I agree.

Of course, you have to be careful when assuming the Church is only full of nicely sifted wheat. There is a good amount of tare tied up in false judgements/false senses of moral superiority.

 

[jmcrae]

I agree.

Of course, you have to be careful when assuming the Church is only full of nicely sifted wheat. There is a good amount of tare tied up in false judgements/false senses of moral superiority.

I don’t think it’s a “false sense of moral superiority” to expect that those who call themselves Christians should come to Church on Sundays. This seems like a basic first step, to me.

 

[leonie]

A little off-topic, and I ask this question with fear and trembling. Please keep in mind that my children were raised Protestant, and I’m not at all sure how religious ed is done at Catholic parishes. I get the feeling that it varies from parish to parish, because I know that it is held on different evenings and times. Also, throughout history, hasn’t the age of confirmation been different? So it strikes me that this isn’t the kind of thing that is set in stone, like Mass attendance.

Is it possible that perhaps the U.S. Catholic churches need to re-examine the way they do religious education classes for children? (Please don’t hit me! Fear and trembling!)

In our parish, kids who are enrolled in the parish school (K-8th grade) get their religious ed at school. So they don’t have to miss religious ed to be involved in sports, arts, etc.

The children and teens who are not in the parish school have to attend after school or in the evening.

A lot of kids are homeschooled–could not these children receive their religious education at home from parents?

I don’t know if it would be helpful for you to know that our parish has many many kids that are make their First Holy Communion and get confirmed every year. I’m guessing well over a hundred children, possibly more.

So–should the method be examined, and perhaps updated? Or is that a no-no?

I know a parish not too far away that operates their RE program on a Point type system. The kids can do different activities to equal the points they need for RE and sacramental prep. For example, you can do the Sunday school classes or you can do work at home or you can participate in other activities that are formative. They have a Challenge girls club program and that counts for a number of points.

I think it’s harder to administer, but more flexible and maybe more effective–depending on the involvement of the parents. It’s also a moderately small parish.

btw, I think my parish has a solid CCD program for the average public school kid. But we do a better job here at home–of course, it’s more frequent, more integrated, more tutorial…I could definitely do better than I’m doing, of course.** I don’t mean to criticize my parish’s program**. It does very well at its mandate–religious ed for public school kids. It’s too bad that many of those parents are passive about r.e. at home.

And, we have excellent first communion/reconciliation and confirmation programs…

I actually think it would be ideal for all parents to teach their kids.If you give them good materials and a catechism, they would do great. I think that it’s the Church’s big problem–that parents have become so passive with RE. I blame the Church of the 40s and 50s. The clergy did all the re and the parents left them to it.