Sports activities vs Church

[puzzleannie]

If you are not happy with the quality of the CCD/RE program offered at your parish for your child, and you do nothing to help resolve the problem, from my vantage point it looks like you are acquiescing with the current situation.

OP was not talking about homeschooling her child to compensate for a poor CCD program she was talking about parents who deliberately keep their child out of religious education, which is bad enough, but away from Sunday Mass, because they have decided sports, and other extracurriculars, are more important. Shall we stay on topic?

Those of you who want to rant against the people who give 60+ hours a week trying to balance competing dictates of the bishop, pastor, parish council, parents, volunteers, catechists and students to provide the best possible climate for religious education, please start your own thread, and don’t use poor CCD as an excuse to keep children from Mass.

If your child is so over-committed that he cannot spare even an hour on the weekend for the Lord it is time to sit down and re-order personal and family priorities. If the child is over-committed, chances are the parents are too, and the whole family could benefit from taking a long hard look at how they are spending time apart and together.

 

[Brenda_V]

If you are not happy with the quality of the CCD/RE program offered at your parish for your child, and you do nothing to help resolve the problem, from my vantage point it looks like you are acquiescing with the current situation.

OP was not talking about homeschooling her child to compensate for a poor CCD program she was talking about parents who deliberately keep their child out of religious education, which is bad enough, but away from Sunday Mass, because they have decided sports, and other extracurriculars, are more important. Shall we stay on topic?

Those of you who want to rant against the people who give 60+ hours a week trying to balance competing dictates of the bishop, pastor, parish council, parents, volunteers, catechists and students to provide the best possible climate for religious education, please start your own thread, and don’t use poor CCD as an excuse to keep children from Mass.

If your child is so over-committed that he cannot spare even an hour on the weekend for the Lord it is time to sit down and re-order personal and family priorities. If the child is over-committed, chances are the parents are too, and the whole family could benefit from taking a long hard look at how they are spending time apart and together.

Amen to that PA!

Brenda V.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

If you are not happy with the quality of the CCD/RE program offered at your parish for your child, and you do nothing to help resolve the problem, from my vantage point it looks like you are acquiescing with the current situation.

Not sure who you’re directing this to. In my case, I don’t judge my CCD program. Something is better than nothing. I wish she could attend every class. She cannot attend approximately 10 classes out of the year because it is smack dab in the middle of a Saturday and her all-day tournaments run too long. CCD should not be scheduled in the middle of Saturday. The only people who do not have trouble with that time are the people who aren’t over-scheduled with frivolous things like school and work during the week.

OP was not talking about homeschooling her child to compensate for a poor CCD program she was talking about parents who deliberately keep their child out of religious education, .

I don’t think that’s what she was talking about at all. The first post says other parents on her son’s team are upset because she is taking her son to Sunday morning CCD, and she can’t win no matter what she does.

Unfortunate more people don’t empathize with her dilemma rather than judgementally assume they know everything about other people’s lives.

I didn’t see a single poster on this thread who says they allow their child to regularly miss Mass. Cat was talking about missing church as a Protestant, which is entirely different in every way. Protestants have one or two Sunday morning services, not five or six Masses to choose from on Sunday, and Protestants have a different worship philosophy, as Cat was trying to explain.

 

[Cat]

I think the bottom line is, sign your kids up for what you want them to attend, and don’t sign them up for what they will not be attending. Pick one thing for each time slot that your child wants to have something to do. Don’t double-book them in the hopes that somehow they will manage to bilocate, or out of the idea that “well it’s not that important anyway, but we should have something there in case the sports get cancelled for some reason.”

It would avoid confusion on all sides.

I certainly agree with this. Some families really over-do life, and end up stressing themselves and their children out, not to mention the teachers and coaches of the various extra-curriculars.

Sometimes even if a child really WANTS to do something and loves to do it, that’s not a good reason. If something very important will have to be missed, then the child has to learn to choose the more important thing.

When my daughter was a Senior in high school, she was not only a member of the elite synchro team, but she was also the volunteer coach of the adult team (most of the skaters were well over 50, and not very skilled) at the rink in our hometown (65 miles away from the elite team rink). No other “professional” skating coach in our town would agree to coach a “synchro” team (dripping with sarcasm and elitism), so my daughter volunteered when she was 16. Within three years, she led that team of adults to a Sectional medal.

Anyway, one of the competitions for the Adult team overlapped one of her elite team competitions. She stood up to the coach of the elite team–an amazing feat, since this coach is one of the best coaches in the world. She told the coach that her little adult team needed a coach and that she would not ditch them.

So the elite coach took her spot in the line away. My daughter sucked it up and stuck it out. The coach wasn’t doing anything nasty. By her own rules, she had to take skaters out who missed competitions. It was just tough on my daughter.

My daughter fought to earn that spot back. She gave 100% at practices, even though she was in the alternate line, and she worked even harder in her individual practices (synchro skaters still have to practice singles skills on their own tim).

In January, the team went to a competition in Milan, and almost everyone on the team came down with stomach flu. It was an awful situation–all the chaperones spent most of the trip nursing sick teenagers in the hotel.

My daughter was one of the few who did not get sick–pretty bad scene for her and those skaters, as they couldn’t go anywhere or do anything without the entire team (this is a United States Figure Skating rule since 9/11, to protect the team).

When the day of the competition arrived, the coach thought she had everyone well enough to skate, but at the gate, one of the key skaters started barfing. So the coach turned to my daughter and said, “Take her spot.”

No warning, No warmup. Just “take her spot.” That’s the purpose of the “alternate.” But still, it was pretty tough–the spot involved performing a flying camel (a highlight move that only a few skaters on the team did), which is not something my daughter excels in.

My daughter stepped onto the ice and skated the program with the team, and did it well.

The team won.

During the award ceremony, the coach selected my daughter to mount to the top of the medal platform (there’s only room for one skater, not the whole team) and hold up the trophy and flowers.

From then on, my daughter had her spot back. The coach is extremely tough, but she is fair.

The moral of the story is, do what is right, and trust that it will work out. Do not try to “ditch” God for sport. There is another way. Don’t give up so easily if your first choice is not available due to conflict with Church responsibilities. There is another league, another team, another coach, another competition. Do these instead of ditching God. Trust God.

 

[Cat]

I think a lot of the problem may be that most kids are not Wayne gretsky, won’t be, and really don’t want to be in any mature way.

Why do people in general, and kids in particular, play sports? For fun, for companionship, for health. With children we also often hope it will help with things like motor skills, an understanding of working toward goals or as a team, provide a habit of activity that will last through life.

Very few people will ever be elite level athletes. Not many will even be at the level where they are getting sports scholarships (even less here in Canada where they are not allowed.)

So why is it that kids sports leagues aren’t more directly geared towards these things? Do young kids in hockey really need to be going to the rink 4 mornings a week and spending a significant part of each weekend being ferried around to games? Why is it that there are far more competitive leagues than recreational ones? This is quite different than how it was 40 years ago, when the majority of organized kids sport really was recreational in nature, cost less money, and required less time.

And other kids activities also seem to want to claim their whole being. For more academically inclined kids, it seems like education wants to take up more and more time. Hours of homework each night, spending time in extra tutoring, summer camps to give kids an edge over others.

And FWIW, I don’t think the idea that some of the things kids might miss at church aren’t really important is central, simply because I don’t think it ends there. I have known of many kids who don’t attend church through hockey season at all, because the teams play Sunday mornings every week.

I think there is something very disproportionate about what we are expecting out of our kids activities.

I’m not sure from your signature if you have other children other than the little one that you are expecting.

Be careful. You may have to eat your words.

Many parents swear that they will not get their children involved in a sport, an art, a class, academics, a hobby, etc.

And then the child demonstrates a remarkable affinity for that activity, and it’s not so easy to say “No” to your child.

When I say, “affinity,” I don’t necessary mean “talent.” Yes, there are a lot of children who are not and never will be Gretzky or Michelle Kwan or Brett Favre, etc.

But in AMERICA, this doesn’t and shouldn’t matter.

If a person loves something, and has the resources to pursue that love, then why shouldn’t they be allowed to pursue that interest and play the sport “with the great ones”, at the same level as the great ones? Why should they be forced to play “recreationally” just because they aren’t superkids?

In most sports, there is a recreational alternative. In figure skating, in the United States, this recreational alternative is called “Ice Skating Institute,” and it is quite delightful. In Canada, the recreational figure skating program is called “Festival Track,” and it is delightful.

The problem, in real life, is this–at the local rink, many of the coaches, skaters, and parents look down on kids who are doing the recreational skating (ISI). In fact, at our rink, no coach will coach it, and a skater who wants to compete in recreational competitions has to travel to another rink to find a recreational coach to help him/her. (Actually, there is one coach who will do recreational skating, but he is an ex-Olympian and charges a lot of money for his lessons.)

This isn’t true of all sports. We have recreational hockey and travel hockey at our rink, and the kids who choose the recreational track get excellent coaching and a wonderful experience. One of my friends’ sons does recreational hockey instead of travel because he is very involved with theater and drama and doesn’t have the time for travel hockey.

It’s tough to be looked down on as a 2nd-Class citizen when you are a child. One of the suggestions I make to new skating parents is to actually physically MOVE to a rink where recreational skating IS honored and taught and the kids are not considered second-class. Interestingly, at the rink where the elite synchro team was headquartered, the coaches used the recreational figure skating program (ISI) as their Learn To Skate program, and they maintained two recreational synchro teams (as feeder teams). I think that’s one reason that rink has an elite synchro team–because they DON’T look down on any form of figure skating.

But what if a child is clearly suited best for recreational figure skating, but wants to do the competitive track?

Well, why not? That’s what we do in America–we encourage people to shoot for the stars.

In figure skating, we talk about “making up the field.” When you watch figure skating on TV, you watch a few elite skaters who made it to the top of the medal podium.

There are hundreds of kids who competed against these champions at the lower levels (local, Regionals, Sectionals). These skaters are “the field.”

These skater passed the SAME figure skating tests to qualify to skate at that particular level. For whatever reason (often a physical deficiency or an emotional weakness, e.g., nerves, that we can’t even see), the skaters in the field do not move on, but place near the bottom of the field.

But they are still good skaters, and they have every darn right to be there competing.

One of the most important lessons that sport teaches is that only one person will win. The rest will not win.

Obviously, this is contrary to what Christianity does for us. In Christianity, all Christians will “win” the prize (see St. Paul).

But in human, earthly life, in most situations, someone will come out on top, and all the rest will not. That is a very valuable lesson for children to learn, as it will keep them from envy and despair, and allow them to enjoy their work and play without fretting over winning.

 

[HouseArrest]

I think a lot of the problem may be that most kids are not Wayne gretsky, won’t be, and really don’t want to be in any mature way.

Why do people in general, and kids in particular, play sports? For fun, for companionship, for health. With children we also often hope it will help with things like motor skills, an understanding of working toward goals or as a team, provide a habit of activity that will last through life.

Very few people will ever be elite level athletes. Not many will even be at the level where they are getting sports scholarships (even less here in Canada where they are not allowed.)

So why is it that kids sports leagues aren’t more directly geared towards these things? Do young kids in hockey really need to be going to the rink 4 mornings a week and spending a significant part of each weekend being ferried around to games? Why is it that there are far more competitive leagues than recreational ones? This is quite different than how it was 40 years ago, when the majority of organized kids sport really was recreational in nature, cost less money, and required less time.

And other kids activities also seem to want to claim their whole being. For more academically inclined kids, it seems like education wants to take up more and more time. Hours of homework each night, spending time in extra tutoring, summer camps to give kids an edge over others.

And FWIW, I don’t think the idea that some of the things kids might miss at church aren’t really important is central, simply because I don’t think it ends there. I have known of many kids who don’t attend church through hockey season at all, because the teams play Sunday mornings every week.

I think there is something very disproportionate about what we are expecting out of our kids activities.

Yeah, what she said! I don’t get the purpose of throwing all that time and money into a sport - weren’t we just as happy as kids doing the twice a week practice and Saturday games? From the people I know that participate in competitive sports - I think they really do think they are going to go pro…

If a child wants to play a sport, so be it, but the parents are going to have to figure out a way to schedule it in as to not neglect the child’s spiritual life and growth.

That might look different depending on what the sport schedule looks like. If there are 1 or 2 CCD classes that will be missed then fine - but any more than that I would think you’d have to find a different way to do religious education. I don’t see anything wrong with homeschooling religious education. But if it’s constantly being pushed to the back burner - going for long periods without a class, constantly holding class in the car on the way to the game, scheduling it for midnight… then I think the parents need to be honest with themselves and realize they are sending a message that sports are more important.

 

[Bluegoat]

I’m not sure from your signature if you have other children other than the little one that you are expecting.

Be careful. You may have to eat your words.

Many parents swear that they will not get their children involved in a sport, an art, a class, academics, a hobby, etc.

And then the child demonstrates a remarkable affinity for that activity, and it’s not so easy to say “No” to your child.

When I say, “affinity,” I don’t necessary mean “talent.” Yes, there are a lot of children who are not and never will be Gretzky or Michelle Kwan or Brett Favre, etc.

But in AMERICA, this doesn’t and shouldn’t matter.

If a person loves something, and has the resources to pursue that love, then why shouldn’t they be allowed to pursue that interest and play the sport “with the great ones”, at the same level as the great ones? Why should they be forced to play “recreationally” just because they aren’t superkids?

In most sports, there is a recreational alternative. In figure skating, in the United States, this recreational alternative is called “Ice Skating Institute,” and it is quite delightful. In Canada, the recreational figure skating program is called “Festival Track,” and it is delightful.

The problem, in real life, is this–at the local rink, many of the coaches, skaters, and parents look down on kids who are doing the recreational skating (ISI). In fact, at our rink, no coach will coach it, and a skater who wants to compete in recreational competitions has to travel to another rink to find a recreational coach to help him/her. (Actually, there is one coach who will do recreational skating, but he is an ex-Olympian and charges a lot of money for his lessons.)

This isn’t true of all sports. We have recreational hockey and travel hockey at our rink, and the kids who choose the recreational track get excellent coaching and a wonderful experience. One of my friends’ sons does recreational hockey instead of travel because he is very involved with theater and drama and doesn’t have the time for travel hockey.

It’s tough to be looked down on as a 2nd-Class citizen when you are a child. One of the suggestions I make to new skating parents is to actually physically MOVE to a rink where recreational skating IS honored and taught and the kids are not considered second-class. Interestingly, at the rink where the elite synchro team was headquartered, the coaches used the recreational figure skating program (ISI) as their Learn To Skate program, and they maintained two recreational synchro teams (as feeder teams). I think that’s one reason that rink has an elite synchro team–because they DON’T look down on any form of figure skating.

But what if a child is clearly suited best for recreational figure skating, but wants to do the competitive track?

Well, why not? That’s what we do in America–we encourage people to shoot for the stars.

In figure skating, we talk about “making up the field.” When you watch figure skating on TV, you watch a few elite skaters who made it to the top of the medal podium.

There are hundreds of kids who competed against these champions at the lower levels (local, Regionals, Sectionals). These skaters are “the field.”

These skater passed the SAME figure skating tests to qualify to skate at that particular level. For whatever reason (often a physical deficiency or an emotional weakness, e.g., nerves, that we can’t even see), the skaters in the field do not move on, but place near the bottom of the field.

But they are still good skaters, and they have every darn right to be there competing.

One of the most important lessons that sport teaches is that only one person will win. The rest will not win.

Obviously, this is contrary to what Christianity does for us. In Christianity, all Christians will “win” the prize (see St. Paul).

But in human, earthly life, in most situations, someone will come out on top, and all the rest will not. That is a very valuable lesson for children to learn, as it will keep them from envy and despair, and allow them to enjoy their work and play without fretting over winning.

I have two other children. But I think you are missing my point.

This attitude toward sport (and some other activities too) is the problem, and I don’t see how buying into it helps. I don’t buy into lots of other things culture wants to tell my kids they need to be happy or fulfilled, and so why would I do it for sports? And why in the world would I want to support a system that had coaches who refused to help out in recreational leagues or demanded kids fork over $800 a year for registration before even looking at other fees?

I am not sure you mean the same thing by a recreational league as I do. A good recreational softball group, for example, might have a practice a week and a game on the weekend, and hats and shirts, and plays against the other teams, who are fairly local. There might be a set of play-offs and the winners get medals. Everyone works hard and tries to win. The point is not trying to get away from “competition” but it is not a huge time and money commitment - kids have time for other things (school, play, another activity), parents are not run ragged, and they don’t get this bizarre and unhealthy idea of what sport is supposed to be about.

And I think kids that follow that kind of model are a lot more likely to keep active as adults, because they have learned what the main purpose for most games actually is - enjoyment and fellowship, fun competition and staying active.

 

[Brenda_V]

Isn’t it possible to set rules in each league that says “no more than 4 practices a week of Xnumber of hours each, no Sunday games”? That would even out the way each team works out too.

For our poster whose CCD/RE (whatever your Parish calls it) classes are on a Saturday afternoon, that is crazy, work with your DRE and Priest to point out how that really is not right because that means any child whose family takes their Religious training seriously can not be involved in a sport which is a good thing, it is good for the body to be active and the body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit. To miss about 10 classes is like missing 1/3rd to 1/2 of our scheduled classes, that is a large number of classes but I get it when RE is scheduled for a Saturday afternoon, but Sunday morning, no, there is no reason except for illness or being out of town for family events. Our OP is also being given a hard time for keeping her son from two games because they are very poorly scheduled for a Sunday morning when she made sure to schedule her sons RE classes so the conflicts would be at a minimum!

Cat, I understand what you are saying although I disagree with you. If the ice time is cheapest on a Sunday and the children and families are that dedicated to the sport (and I view synchronized skating as a sport!) then schedule for 5-9 allowing the families to get home and changed for Mass/Services and Sunday School/CCD. See, it can be done and if the rink is too far from your Parish then see if there is a Parish closer to the Rink and join it so you can go to Mass there and possibly have Sunday morning CCD. It can be done (even if the skater has to clean up using the bathroom sink and you have to be a little more organized re making sure to bring clothes for changing into, food to be eaten immediately after practice etc.) This type of schedule also means you have to be very diligent about getting to bed early - by 9 p.m.most likely.

Brenda V.

 

[puzzleannie]

this may be against forum etiquette, but if we can go back to OP, she is fighting valiantly against a cultural construct in her are that militates against families putting religion as a top priority for their children. She is asking how to combat that attitude. The best defense is a good offense, if that is enough sports analogy for you.

My comments are aimed at those who first seek to justify their own parental failure to enforce rules about RE and Mass attendance in the name of sports and extracurriculars being somehow of equal or greater importance, and more selectively to respondents who introduced a non sequiter about the quality of RE in their parish.

As OP has already observed, if you go along with the prevailing culture you become part of it. If you don’t like RE, change it, if you don’t like the attitude of your school district, parish, coach, league, or your friends, challenge it and change it, but as a parent you must stand up now for what you believe or you lose all credibility with your children.

 

[Corki]

Yeah, what she said! I don’t get the purpose of throwing all that time and money into a sport - weren’t we just as happy as kids doing the twice a week practice and Saturday games? From the people I know that participate in competitive sports - I think they really do think they are going to go pro…

If a child wants to play a sport, so be it, but the parents are going to have to figure out a way to schedule it in as to not neglect the child’s spiritual life and growth.

That might look different depending on what the sport schedule looks like. If there are 1 or 2 CCD classes that will be missed then fine - but any more than that I would think you’d have to find a different way to do religious education. I don’t see anything wrong with homeschooling religious education. But if it’s constantly being pushed to the back burner - going for long periods without a class, constantly holding class in the car on the way to the game, scheduling it for midnight… then I think the parents need to be honest with themselves and realize they are sending a message that sports are more important.

One of the things I find troubling in this thread is the idea that CCE/CCD is the same as religious education. Maybe not for the mainstream students (as I said, my students mostly don’t even go to Mass) but for most CAF posters, our kids are getting their religious education from many sources - parents, youth groups, service groups, Catholic schools, etc.

For our family, sports are not more important than religious education but specific sporting activities ARE more important than CCE classes. Missing CCE classes is not the same as “neglecting the child’s spiritual life and growth”.

I am not sure you mean the same thing by a recreational league as I do. A good recreational softball group, for example, might have a practice a week and a game on the weekend, and hats and shirts, and plays against the other teams, who are fairly local. There might be a set of play-offs and the winners get medals. Everyone works hard and tries to win. The point is not trying to get away from “competition” but it is not a huge time and money commitment - kids have time for other things (school, play, another activity), parents are not run ragged, and they don’t get this bizarre and unhealthy idea of what sport is supposed to be about.

And I think kids that follow that kind of model are a lot more likely to keep active as adults, because they have learned what the main purpose for most games actually is - enjoyment and fellowship, fun competition and staying active.

This is a great idea if you live somewhere with a variety of sports. We have that kinds of rec league here with soccer and my kids did that for several years. But soccer is the only choice. If you want to play a different sport - and I would think its healthier for my kids to experiencre a variety of sports - you don’t have that option. My oldest son plays a sport with no team in our school district. He plays for a team in the next district over but they still have to travel to find anyone to play against.

Isn’t it possible to set rules in each league that says “no more than 4 practices a week of Xnumber of hours each, no Sunday games”? That would even out the way each team works out too.

No that’s not possible. I live in the “Bible belt” but a league would still get in a lot of flack for a “no Sunday” rule which would be great for Catholics but not fair to Jewish, SDA, Muslim or other faiths. The best way to regulate this is through the coaches. Most coaches are parents and my kids usually have coaches that won’t practice on Sunday or even sometimes Wednesdays. We do have limits on practices. Even for most of the “select” teams, practice is limited to three days a week - two in a week with a game.

… but Sunday morning, no, there is no reason except for illness or being out of town for family events.

That’s a stricter attendance policy than even the schools have. You really wouldn’t accept as a valid reason for CCE absence that the child has a school trip, spent the night with friends (and went to Mass with their family), was at camp, was visiting an out of town relative, was scheduled to serve at the altar at a Mass that conflicted or was on a service project? My kids have had all of those happen (not in a single year, thankfully) and I don’t think that missing class in any of those situation is a problem. Note, I am never talking about missing Mass, only missing CCE class.

 

[Bluegoat]

This is a great idea if you live somewhere with a variety of sports. We have that kinds of rec league here with soccer and my kids did that for several years. But soccer is the only choice. If you want to play a different sport - and I would think its healthier for my kids to experiencre a variety of sports - you don’t have that option. My oldest son plays a sport with no team in our school district. He plays for a team in the next district over but they still have to travel to find anyone to play against.

Yes, I agree that this is a major problem, and perhaps just the kind of thing parents need to do something about. What I find myself wondering is why this kind of league is so rare? My feeling is that it isn’t really a kid driven thing, it’s a parent driven thing. Yes, kids want to be in the “best” group, the most serious/elite/special, etc, if such a thing exists. But I think they are actually learning that from the structures that exist now and the emphasis, often very subtle, from parents, coaches, and other players. If those groups were not the norm, I don’t think the pressure to join that kind of group would be so intense.

So I am left wondering - why do parents think that very competitive elite teams are so important for their kids?

No that’s not possible. I live in the “Bible belt” but a league would still get in a lot of flack for a “no Sunday” rule which would be great for Catholics but not fair to Jewish, SDA, Muslim or other faiths. The best way to regulate this is through the coaches. Most coaches are parents and my kids usually have coaches that won’t practice on Sunday or even sometimes Wednesdays. We do have limits on practices. Even for most of the “select” teams, practice is limited to three days a week - two in a week with a game.

I think this is a real issue. In some locations it might not be a practical problem. But a team in, say, NYC is likely to have as many Jewish kids as Christian ones, or more, plus kids from other groups. If there were enough you could easily split kids up according to what days they want off. It would be more difficult if there was only enough for one or two teams. But in a recreational league it seems to me it would be much easier to take it for granted that team membership would have a bit of flux - the exact same people might not be there each time.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

My comments are aimed at those who first seek to justify their own parental failure to enforce rules about RE and Mass attendance in the name of sports and extracurriculars being somehow of equal or greater importance, and more selectively to respondents who introduced a non sequiter about the quality of RE in their parish.

Thank you for the clarification. This is not directed at me, then, as I am far from failing in my upbriging of my child regarding her religous education. Considering I actually leave her sporting events to teach CCD, I am doing everything in my power to contribute to religous education.

bluegoat:

So I am left wondering - why do parents think that very competitive elite teams are so important for their kids?

Is it truly so hard for people to refrain from judging other people on topics they are completely ignorant of?

Why do you think rec leagues are rare? You’re completely wrong about that. The most common leagues are non-competitive rec leagues.

You obviously are not a sports person and don’t have a child with a desire to be an athlete. So you make assumptions about how this must be the “parents” pushing their child, without having any idea about the child and what they want. Obviously it is hard for you to imagine a self-motivated athelete who hasn’t been somehow pushed or brain-washed by their parents. It’s just random judgement and speculation from you on something you don’t know anything about, based on your own assumptions and prejudices about sports. My own child is the person who asked to become involved in her sport. It was her idea from the beginning, and has been driven entirely by her.

Apparently there are quite a few people on this thread who don’t understand the value of any extracurricular activities in the development of children, unless it is their religion class. That is quite ironic, because in the larger scheme of things, there are 112 waking hours in a week. At least 40 of those are filled academic work. Parents would be remiss to think that the entire requirement for religious training is fulfilled in the two hours spent at Mass and religion class. One of those hours is an obligation as a Catholic, and luckily most cities offer many times to attend weekly Mass.The other hour, the religion class, when compared in overall value to the value of other activities that are in un-resolvable conflict with the religion class (especially when the religion class is scheduled on Saturday, the only day children have for their other pursuits) may not be the best use of the child’s time.

Do you really think a child should say, I cannot do anything. No sports, Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, whatever, because someone decided one single hour of religion class (on topics my daughter complains she already is well-educated on) should be scheduled on Saturday. Even though those activities take more than 1 hour per week and offer more in return to the child in many ways in terms of their character development, emotional and physical health.

If you think that, then perhaps you should look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself why you have such a need to micromanage and judge others’ decisions when you have no immediate knowledge of their lives, families or values. This is very obvious. The right answer is if a parent places God first, the evidence is in the child’s life and not in whether they are present at some particular religious class or event on a particular day.

I have noticed that Catholic culture as a whole tends to be extradordinarily judgemental about superficial matters that are entirely a matter of appearance, and to miss the boat completely on more substantial matters, such as how the children spent the other 109 waking hours of their week. It is somewhat amazing to me that cradle Catholics can go into convulsions over Mass attendance and then leave Mass and curse, drink, smoke, lie, look at pornography.

 

[Bluegoat]

Is it truly so hard for people to refrain from judging other people on topics they are completely ignorant of?

Why do you think rec leagues are rare? You’re completely wrong about that. The most common leagues are non-competitive rec leagues.

You obviously are not a sports person and don’t have a child with a desire to be an athlete. So you make assumptions about how this must be the “parents” pushing their child, without having any idea about the child and what they want. Obviously it is hard for you to imagine a self-motivated athelete who hasn’t been somehow pushed or brain-washed by their parents. It’s just random judgement and speculation from you on something you don’t know anything about, based on your own assumptions and prejudices about sports. My own child is the person who asked to become involved in her sport. It was her idea from the beginning, and has been driven entirely by her.

Apparently there are quite a few people on this thread who don’t understand the value of any extracurricular activities in the development of children, unless it is their religion class. That is quite ironic, because in the larger scheme of things, there are 112 waking hours in a week. At least 40 of those are filled academic work. Parents would be remiss to think that the entire requirement for religious training is fulfilled in the two hours spent at Mass and religion class. One of those hours is an obligation as a Catholic, and luckily most cities offer many times to attend weekly Mass.The other hour, the religion class, when compared in overall value to the value of other activities that are in un-resolvable conflict with the religion class (especially when the religion class is scheduled on Saturday, the only day children have for their other pursuits) may not be the best use of the child’s time.

Do you really think a child should say, I cannot do anything. No sports, Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, whatever, because someone decided one single hour of religion class (on topics my daughter complains she already is well-educated on) should be scheduled on Saturday. Even though those activities take more than 1 hour per week and offer more in return to the child in many ways in terms of their character development, emotional and physical health.

If you think that, then perhaps you should look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself why you have such a need to micromanage and judge others’ decisions when you have no immediate knowledge of their lives, families or values. This is very obvious. The right answer is if a parent places God first, the evidence is in the child’s life and not in whether they are present at some particular religious class or event on a particular day.

I have noticed that Catholic culture as a whole tends to be extradordinarily judgemental about superficial matters that are entirely a matter of appearance, and to miss the boat completely on more substantial matters, such as how the children spent the other 109 waking hours of their week. It is somewhat amazing to me that cradle Catholics can go into convulsions over Mass attendance and then leave Mass and curse, drink, smoke, lie, look at pornography.

I think most of your comments here are way out of line. No one has said that kids should not do extracurricular activities or that there is no value in them.

AS for the availability of recreational leagues. First of all, a recreational league in name isn’t always one in practice. But more than that, the availability varies widely throughout the country and by sport. Around here hockey is big. So can a person find a league a bit more organized than pick-up hockey but less so than the elite teams? Not very easily at all. The emphasis is too much on very serious competitive teams and ice times and coaches for other types of teams are just not available.

And again, I don’t think that the one hour religious education class is really the issue, though it is one particular example - it is a more general feeling among the population that organized sports, or other activities that are not sports, or fun kids activities like sleep-overs, come before spiritual commitments and duties for increasing numbers of people. And that there is often pressure from these groups against kids and families who also give priority to other things. Not just kids who are overbooked with extra things, but families that want to have a religious life, or thing family time together is being compromised are being pressured in this way.

 

[Nanny_PK]

I have enjoyed reading this discussion.

Setting aside the religious education versus sports debate I would like to bring up the point that it teaches children a very bad lesson: Sign up for something and give your word that you will be participating and having others count on you knowing full well that you cannot be in two places at once.

My example comes from when I taught children’s choir in a protestant church years ago. Parents would intentionally sign their children up for choir knowing that their child had already signed up for soccer or baseball or … So they only showed up when it was time to sing in church. They didn’t know the song so they stood up there goofing off because they were bored. That’s not fair to the children who were faithful to rehearsal and learned the song.

That is a lesson that will carry through to adults. You cannot do everything. You have to make choices.

Just my two cents.

 

[jmcrae]

Missing CCE classes is not the same as “neglecting the child’s spiritual life and growth”.

If that is your honest opinion, then for the sake of the volunteers, don’t sign your children up for CCE in the first place.

That way, the volunteers can have a realistic idea of who is going to be in their classes, and gives them the ability to prepare appropriately. It also gives the Finance Council real numbers to work with, so that money isn’t spent on kids who have no plans to actually come to the classes.

 

[jmcrae]

Do you really think a child should say, I cannot do anything. No sports, Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, whatever, because someone decided one single hour of religion class (on topics my daughter complains she already is well-educated on) should be scheduled on Saturday. Even though those activities take more than 1 hour per week and offer more in return to the child in many ways in terms of their character development, emotional and physical health.

When I was a kid growing up in the 1960s and '70s, I attended Brownies, Girl Guides, and Rangers on Thursday evenings from 6:30 - 8:00 from the age of 7 to 17. We had weekend events (camps, dances, service projects, etc.) once every two months and during the summer time, but nothing that ever conflicted with Sunday School. I also played baseball one or two years, basketball another year, and floor hockey for another couple of years, and to the best of my recollection, these were also one afternoon a week at the community centre, right after school, with occasional Friday night games, and they were only on for about three or four months a year, tops. I only played one sport at a time. I don’t remember any conflicts between games and Guides. There were certainly no conflicts with either of these and Sunday School - my mother would have pulled me out if there had been, because her priority was Church. I had perfect attendance at Sunday School nine years in a row - she made sure of that.

So, no - no one is saying that if your child is signed up for one hour of Religion every week, that she or he can’t participate in other things on other days of the week, or at a different time of the day. We are just asking you not to double-book her. If you sign her up for Religion, then please make sure she shows up to it, in the same way that you make sure she shows up for her sports and other commitments.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

When I was a kid growing up in the 1960s and '70s, I attended Brownies, Girl Guides, and Rangers on Thursday evenings from 6:30 - 8:00 from the age of 7 to 17. We had weekend events (camps, dances, service projects, etc.) once every two months and during the summer time, but nothing that ever conflicted with Sunday School. I also played baseball one or two years, basketball another year, and floor hockey for another couple of years, and to the best of my recollection, these were also one afternoon a week at the community centre, right after school, with occasional Friday night games, and they were only on for about three or four months a year, tops. I only played one sport at a time. I don’t remember any conflicts between games and Guides. There were certainly no conflicts with either of these and Sunday School - my mother would have pulled me out if there had been, because her priority was Church. I had perfect attendance at Sunday School nine years in a row - she made sure of that.

So, no - no one is saying that if your child is signed up for one hour of Religion every week, that she or he can’t participate in other things on other days of the week, or at a different time of the day. We are just asking you not to double-book her. If you sign her up for Religion, then please make sure she shows up to it, in the same way that you make sure she shows up for her sports and other commitments.

With some reflection, I think my own individual issue is probably not the same issue that is being discussed here. That advice makes sense, but wouldn’t work for our situation. I think CCD should be on Sunday. Activities are almost never scheduled on Sunday mornings in our society to allow Christians to have their worship and teaching times. It just is not fair to kids to tell them if they want to go to CCD, they can’t play sports or go to any birthday parties or any other activites that are routinely scheduled on Saturday afternoons because they might miss a class. And that’s really the choice you are saying you have to make if you say don’t overbook. That’s my opinion, and apparently, almost every other parent in CCD feels the same way, because I am always there teaching and the attendance is about 50%. I’ve actually brought up the issue in the past and it turns out the Church wants CCD on this day because they want the parents to keep their kids out of extracurricular activities. Or at least one person has this opinion. I’ve struggled with the idea of quitting, precisely because of when it is scheduled but can never bring myself to do it. I am also busy on Saturday. I don’t want to rush from my chores for the week to Church. I want a whole day set aside for worship, teaching, family and relaxing on Sunday. But that’s just me.

 

[Corki]

If that is your honest opinion, then for the sake of the volunteers, don’t sign your children up for CCE in the first place.

That way, the volunteers can have a realistic idea of who is going to be in their classes, and gives them the ability to prepare appropriately. It also gives the Finance Council real numbers to work with, so that money isn’t spent on kids who have no plans to actually come to the classes.

Don’t worry, I don’t. I teach them but don’t enroll the kids. That means my kids come with me to class a few times a year when my husband travels. Otherwise, they wouldn’t make it to Mass. So they get “free” CCE or the CCE program gets “free” teacher’s aides on those weeks, depending on how you want to look at it.

But in Confirmation year, I will have no choice. That year, my kids will miss 3 or 4 classes (out of 28) and I am sure they will be fine. I have got to say, that if your Finance council can’t deal with a class for teens that has an absentee rate of less than 15%, you might need some better accounting types on the council.

 

[whatevergirl]

I have enjoyed reading this discussion.

Setting aside the religious education versus sports debate I would like to bring up the point that it teaches children a very bad lesson: Sign up for something and give your word that you will be participating and having others count on you knowing full well that you cannot be in two places at once.

My example comes from when I taught children’s choir in a protestant church years ago. Parents would intentionally sign their children up for choir knowing that their child had already signed up for soccer or baseball or … So they only showed up when it was time to sing in church. They didn’t know the song so they stood up there goofing off because they were bored. That’s not fair to the children who were faithful to rehearsal and learned the song.

That is a lesson that will carry through to adults. You cannot do everything. You have to make choices.

Just my two cents.

*Amen to this. I tried to say this, but you are so much more eloquent here than me. *

 

[Corki]

Yes, I agree that this is a major problem, and perhaps just the kind of thing parents need to do something about. What I find myself wondering is why this kind of league is so rare? My feeling is that it isn’t really a kid driven thing, it’s a parent driven thing. Yes, kids want to be in the “best” group, the most serious/elite/special, etc, if such a thing exists. But I think they are actually learning that from the structures that exist now and the emphasis, often very subtle, from parents, coaches, and other players. If those groups were not the norm, I don’t think the pressure to join that kind of group would be so intense.

It’s called “population density” and it’s not kid driven. If there aren’t enough kids interested in a sport in the same town/district you aren’t going to have a team, let alone a league. And the kids have to be close enough in age that they don’t get hurt. I guess if everyone just had bigger families, we wouldn’t have this problem. I drive over an hour to get my kids to school each morning and again at night. Why is it ok to travel for school but not for sports? It’s the same issue - population.

Some sports require competition. We have the “everyone wins” sports but that just doesn’t work for things like high school age team sports. I have one child who hates competitive sports and one who loves them. I try to give both kids the chance to stretch thier abilities in activities that meet their wants and needs.