Spousal Subordination

  • Thread starter Thread starter iguana27
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
Happy2bcatholic:
… but ideally it is a mutual submission but the initative belongs to the man, loving her fully and ‘dying’ for her, and we submitting to that love. In reality husband and wife love each other through thick and thin and work with the ebb and flow of life together and get as close to the ideal as possible.
This is the ideal. What I see in families, though, is one spouse on board but the other is not. That can be awfully difficult. I have met many women whose husbands are heavy handed and expect the wives to submit to any whim. Tough situation. —KCT
 
The link to Familia is right on the mark. First, both members of the couple can be fed and led by the appropriate documents and life team members.

I am just strarting year two for wives and mothers. Joining Familia was the best thing I have done for my 19 year old marriage. True most Familia teams have people who have been less time, but still it has been wonderful for me.

Familiaris Consortio is the women’s first year document. It is a wonderful look at our role in culture and our homes.

Anyone can read the documents of free or a small fee. The participation in Familia isn’t free, but well worth the time and money.

www.familiausa.net

If you can’t find a Familia team, then check out Christopher West or any other presenter of the Theology of the Body to us lay folk. Familia is based on the TOB and the TOB is our Holy Father’s gift to us.
 
In regards to the verses from 1Corinthians 11, Paul says:

“For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. Indeed, man was not made from woman, but woman from man.” (7-9)
He goes on to say:
“Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man or man independent of woman. For just as woman came from man, so man comes through woman; but all things come from God” (11-12).

So it seems to me like, taken in context, the verses don’t say that man is above woman but that God has made woman equal to man by allowing woman to be the vessel of life for man, just as the first man originally was for the first woman.
 
Grace and Glory:
So it seems to me like, taken in context, the verses don’t say that man is above woman but that God has made woman equal to man by allowing woman to be the vessel of life for man, just as the first man originally was for the first woman.
Or perhaps St. Paul simply wanted to keep the men from becoming too prideful because of their higher station. Reminding them that they were still dependent on women was a good way of deflating their egos.
 
40.png
darcee:
It gets a little more difficult when you are married to a flesh and blood man who makes stupid mistakes, is lazy, hurtful, faithless, ill-tempered and self-centered. Unfortunately the Bible doesn’t command women to submit to their husbands when these men reach perfection. The commandments to men and women are listed out back to back but separately - one does not hinge on the other. Even if he is a cad, you married him and God commands a submission.
The above portion of a quote, I think, is a most important point. Women today who CHOSE to marry men described above is the biggest contributing factor to “some women’s uneasiness to submit” to thier husband’s as commanded in the scripture. Men like this are not Godly men who love and care for thier family as commanded by God, therefore, they produce chaotic and truamatizing experiances.

God’s commands on husbands and wives are crystal clear, the burden of who we choose lies with us, and we must chose wisely.
 
Mutual subordination of spouses is a Gospel “Innovation.”

According to Mulieris Dignitatem:

…“Husbands, love your wives,” love them because of that special and unique bond whereby in marriage a man and a woman become “one flesh” (Gen 2:24; Eph 5:31) In this love there is a fundamental affirmation of the woman as a person. This affirmation makes it possible for the female personality to develop fully and be enriched. This is precisely the way Christ acts as the bridegroom of the Church; he desires that she be " in splendor, without spot or wrinkle" (Eph 5:27). One can say that this fully captures the whole “style” of Christ in dealing with women. Husbands should make their own the elements of this style in regard to their wives…

The author of the Letter to the Ephesians sees no contradiction between an exhortation formulated in this way and the words:“Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife” (5:22-23). The author knows that this way of speaking, so profoundly rooted in the customs and religious traditions of the time, is to be understood and carried out in a new way: as a “mutual subjection out of reverence for Christ” (cf. Eph 5:21). This is especially true because the husband is called the “head” of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church: he is so in order to give “himself up for her” (Eph 5:25), and giving himself up for her means giving up his own life.

However, whereas in the relationship between Christ and the Church the subjection is only on the part of the Church, in the relationship between husband and wife the “subjection” is not one-sided but mutual.

In relation to the “old” this is evidently something “new”: it is an innovation of the Gospel…

The apostolic letters are addressed to people living in an environment marked by that same traditional way of thinking and acting. The “innovation” of Christ is a fact: it constitutes the unambiguous content of the evangelical message and is the result of the Redemption.

However, the awareness that in marriage there is mutual “subjection of the spouses out of reverence for Christ,” and not just that of the wife to the husband, must gradually establish itself in hearts, consciences, behavior, and customs.

This is a call which people have to accept ever anew. St. Paul not only wrote: “In Christ Jesus…there is no more man or woman,” but also wrote: “There is no more slave or freeman.” Yet how many generations were needed for such a principle to be realized in the history of humanity through the abolition of slavery! And what is one to say of the many forms of slavery to which individuals and peoples are subjected, which have not yet disappeared from history?

But the challenge presented by the “ethos” of the Redemption is clear and definitive. All the reasons in favor of the “subjection” of woman to man in marriage must be understood in the sense of a “mutual subjection” of both “out of reverence for Christ.” The measure of true spousal love finds its deepest source in Christ, who is the Bridegroom of the Church, his Bride.
  • Apostolic Letter Mulieris Dignitatem, On the Dignity and Vocation of Women, Pope John Paul II, 1988, 24.
 
I believe that God invented marriage to reflect the love of Christ for us. He didn’t mean it like women are supposed to be slaves. Just as we choose to follow Christ’s lead, we must choose to follow our husband’s lead. He is the spiritual leader of the household and he and his wife should work together to build a home that brings Glory to God. I am lucky to have found a man who stands firm on Christian priciples and we have had the pleasure of watching each other grow in the faith over the years. I can’t imagine our future household where he isn’t the leader. He was right when he said, “choose wisely”. I hope he thinks he did!! hehehehe
 
40.png
puzzleannie:
…Have just finished a series of conversation with a relative, young solidly Catholic woman from good “traditional” Catholic family married to a nominal Catholic who is investigating other religions. They have 3 small boys, practice NFP (which he is resisting). His latest church choice is a popular “community” church which has an evangelical prestbyterian root and outlook. They are very much into this “subordination” idea,…

The husband is trying to force her to accept his new beliefs and forsake hers using this scripture as justification, including not raising the children Catholic, abandoning NFP etcQUOTE]

Puzzleannie, here is what Vatican II tells us about married women following their conscience:

DECLARATION ON RELIGIOUS FREEDOM
DIGNITATIS HUMANAE
ON THE RIGHT OF THE PERSON AND OF COMMUNITIES
TO SOCIAL AND CIVIL FREEDOM IN MATTERS RELIGIOUS
  1. This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. This freedom means that all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others, within due limits.
(2)… This right of the human person to religious freedom is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed and thus it is to become a civil right.

It is in accordance with their dignity as persons-that is, beings endowed with reason and free will and therefore privileged to bear personal responsibility-that all men should be at once impelled by nature and also bound by a moral obligation to seek the truth, especially religious truth. They are also bound to adhere to the truth, once it is known, and to order their whole lives in accord with the demands of truth However, men cannot discharge these obligations in a manner in keeping with their own nature unless they enjoy immunity from external coercion as well as psychological freedom. Therefore the right to religious freedom has its foundation not in the subjective disposition of the person, but in his very nature. In consequence, the right to this immunity continues to exist even in those who do not live up to their obligation of seeking the truth and adhering to it and the exercise of this right is not to be impeded, provided that just public order be observed.
  1. … Wherefore every man has the duty, and therefore the right, to seek the truth in matters religious in order that he may with prudence form for himself right and true judgments of conscience, under use of all suitable means…
Moreover, as the truth is discovered, it is by a personal assent that men are to adhere to it.

On his part, man perceives and acknowledges the imperatives of the divine law through the mediation of conscience. In all his activity a man is bound to follow his conscience in order that he may come to God, the end and purpose of life. It follows that he is not to be forced to act in manner contrary to his conscience. Nor, on the other hand, is he to be restrained from acting in accordance with his conscience, especially in matters religious… No merely human power can either command or prohibit acts of this kind…
  1. The family, since it is a society in its own original right, has the right freely to live its own domestic religious life under the guidance of parents…

continued in next post…
 
continued from previous post…
  1. It is one of the major tenets of Catholic doctrine that man’s response to God in faith must be free: no one therefore is to be forced to embrace the Christian faith against his own will.(8) This doctrine is contained in the word of God and it was constantly proclaimed by the Fathers of the Church.(7) The act of faith is of its very nature a free act. Man, redeemed by Christ the Savior and through Christ Jesus called to be God’s adopted son,(9) cannot give his adherence to God revealing Himself unless, under the drawing of the Father,(10) he offers to God the reasonable and free submission of faith. It is therefore completely in accord with the nature of faith that in matters religious every manner of coercion on the part of men should be excluded.
  2. God calls men to serve Him in spirit and in truth, hence they are bound in conscience but they stand under no compulsion. God has regard for the dignity of the human person whom He Himself created and man is to be guided by his own judgment and he is to enjoy freedom. …“each one of us is to render to God an account of himself” (Romans 14:12),(23) and for that reason is bound to obey his conscience."
    __________
Wives have equal duties and rights for the decisions and responsibilities within the marriage as well:

From the Code of Canon Law- 1983:

The Effects of Marriage (Chapter VIII)
Can. 1135 – Each of the spouses has equal obligation and rights to those things which pertain to the partnership of conjugal life.

Can. 1136 – **Parents **have the most serious duty and the primary right do all in their power to see to the physical, social, cultural, moral, and religious upbringing of their children.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

The grace of the sacrament of Matrimony.

CCC1642 Christ is the source of this grace…Christ dwells with them, gives them strength to take up their crosses and so follow him, to rise again after they have fallen, to forgive one another, to bear one another’s burdens, to “be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ,” 148 and to love one another with supernatural, tender, and fruitful love…

I have emphasized the words in bold type.
 
RedHead Sue:
Something I’ve never understood…who do single women submit to? Men submit to the Lord, single or married. But I can’t find anything in Scripture about single women.
I guess there is no mention of single women in the Bible because basically there were none in those times. Single women today are seen as independent, not living with parents, and having a career. So naturally, they don’t submit to anyone. In Biblical days young women lived at home under their parent’s roof until they were married. They went from their Father’s control to their husbands.
 
40.png
StratusRose:
I guess there is no mention of single women in the Bible because basically there were none in those times. Single women today are seen as independent, not living with parents, and having a career. So naturally, they don’t submit to anyone. In Biblical days young women lived at home under their parent’s roof until they were married. They went from their Father’s control to their husbands.
I beg to differ

1 Corinthians 7:8-9
8 But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is (7) good for them if they remain (8) even as I.
9 But if they do not have self-control, (9) let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

source
NASB Bible

they should submit to Jesus like everyone else!
 
40.png
Debbie:
I spent the last several months in a study group (FAMILIAI) where we read *Mulieris Dignitatum *(On the Dignity and Vocation of Women), written by Pope John Paul II in 1988. In no way can I encapsulate his writings, but I can say that after reading MD I now feel honored to have been born a woman.

May I suggest reading Articles 23-27 in *Mulieris Dignitatum *and maybe you’ll find some enlightment there?

If available, you may want to consider joining a FAMILIA group. My views on my role as a wife and mother and woman have been radically changed after participating for two years. I am continually amazed at the wisdom and beauty of Church teaching. For more information on FAMILIA go here: familiausa.net

You can read *Mulieris Dignitatum *online at: The Vatican’s Website

I have found FAMILIA to be a wonderful gift to me as a woman, wife and mother. It has also been such a wonderful help in our marriage, now my husband is trying to start a Father’s/husband team.

It is truly awesome and the submission is not demeaning – we are much less selfish with each other now. Our marriage has been strengthened and I am a better wife and mother.
 
My husband has said to me before,“Woman, would you just be quiet and let me lead?” I replied, “Do you know how badly I want you lead? Do you know how many women would love to have their husbands lead? It would relieve so much stress. We want our husbands to make Godly choices and lead us straight to heaven.” This is my dream. I can’t force him to be the man I want him to be. So I am praying him into the man I want him to be.
 
40.png
dhnorris:
My husband has said to me before,“Woman, would you just be quiet and let me lead?” I replied, “Do you know how badly I want you lead? Do you know how many women would love to have their husbands lead? It would relieve so much stress. We want our husbands to make Godly choices and lead us straight to heaven.” This is my dream. I can’t force him to be the man I want him to be. So I am praying him into the man I want him to be.
Get the book Wild at Heart by John Elderedge. Read it. Then rent one of the movies in the beginning portion of it. Give the book to him and give your husband permission to get together with some guys at Church. Elderedge is protestant but there is only one or two things that is iffy in the book and the rest is really just incomplete.

Matt
 
C.S. Lewis pondered this question and proposed that in a two person system – SOMEONE has to be the head. Why Scripture indicates that it should be the husband, he couldn’t say for sure, but it did, and he suggested possible reasons. The one I remember him suggesting was his belief that women are more protective of their children and perhaps less objective in regard to their children faults. He argued that on one hand this was good, but on the other hand, it was good to have a person who was a bit more objective (the father) having a final word as this tension between protectiveness and objectivism would play out well in the end.

I’m not arguing for or against Lewis’ latter observations, only recording them here for those who care. But I do think there is wisdom in the ideat that SOMEONE has to be the final word, and the explanation I offer is substantially different.

I think there are tremendous advantages for our children to see parents submitting to higher authorities. In terms of social dynamics, it is good for them to see both fathers and mothers submitting to the authority church and civil leaders.

In terms of family dynamics, I believe it also good that they see a heirarchial structure. When wives, at least in front of the children, are submissive to their husbands decisions, it teaches children to be submissive to both his and her decisions (especially if the husband reinforces their duty to submit to her just as they and she submit to him).

Now, I’m not arguing that this is good or necessary based on gender. It is not that the man necessarily is better at being at the top of the family heirarchy, but rather that children will pick up on any sign of power struggle between their parents. This has several negative effects. First, it encourages children to play one power against the other. Second, it undermines the understanding that we are all called to submit to authority that is over us (civil, church, or Divine authority itself.) Third, it prepares children, by example, to engage in such power struggles in their own marriages.

The very question, why should one spouse submit to another, is anti-heirachial. But the Kingdom of God is inevitably heirarchial.

Obviously, as much discussed in this post, at every level, the leader must serve and even lay down his or her life for those both under and over him or her. In this sense, it is not at all about power, it is about service. But service itself is more productive and loving when performed within a well defined structure where people are not constantly battling about their roles and authority.

I think this is a powerful argument for some heirarchy within families. It does not answer why or if it always be the man who is the head? But it does quickly lead to the conclusion that if there is some heirarchy is good, then perhaps it should be standardized (patriarchial or matriarchial) so children and the culture will more easily understand the roles and therefore avoid renegotiating the structure in each generation and even each household.

The reality is that by natural inclination some men are domineering and some women are domineering. This creates a limited number of combinations, even if the patriarchial model is adopted. Assuming all parties agree that the patriarchial system is the ideal, this is what each combination will face.

I’ll examine the four combinations in a second post.
 
The reality is that by natural inclination some men are domineering and some women are domineering. This creates a limited number of combinations, even if the patriarchial model is adopted. Assuming all parties in the combinations below agree that the patriarchial system is the ideal, this is what each combination will face.

Combination 1: Husband has naturally domineering nature and wife has natural submissive nature. At first glance, this couple would appear to fit the model easily, but their lives together will soon teach the husband that he must love and encourage his wife more to draw out her strengths and make her less reliant on him, especially in the smaller matters which he does not want to bother with. Also, because of her support for his decisions in all the big issues that he does deeply care about, he will love more and more as his constant support and will look for opportunities to get her advice and make decisions that will please her. Hopefully, this will draw him to humility…but no guarantees there.

Combination 2: Domineering wife and submissive husband. By natural inclination they do not fit the patriarchial role, but by social and family norms, they strive to moderate and even reverse their inclinations. She prods him to be more assertive in making decisions. He pleads with her to be less assertive. Both grow in becoming more well rounded in both humility and boldness.
Combination 3: Submissive husband and submissive wife. He faces social and familial pressure to step up to the plate and make the important decisions that come up. Because of his temerity, she needs to step up to the plate also to give him the encouragement and support he needs to follow through where his nature would prefer to retreat.

Combination 4: Domineering husband and domineering wife. Sparks! But this tension created by natural inclinations will be much reduced when they both accept a social and family convention that “breaks the tie” and provides some consistent basis for resolving disputes over final decisions. In these cases, also, both spouses gradually learn to temper their domineering tendencies. She, because she will “always lose” since the final decision is his anyway. And he, because he does love her and feels a debt to her each time she has relented in the past, and so he will seek whenever possible to show that he does respect her views, wishes, and desires. Afterall, even if she is very submissive by acts of will, since this goes against her nature, she will always be communicating–at least through body language–her disagreements with his decisions. This will create tension, but also a sense of guilt/gratitude that she submitted to his will in this matter, which will he hopefully consider in future decisions.

One could make a similar set of combinations for a matriarchial system that would look like they could equally well be at least functional, if not a positive source of grace and growth for all.

Like Lewis, I can only speculate why Scripture appears to embrace a patriarchial rather than matriarchial social structure. I’m not a sociologists and can’t present evidence that one or the other is superior. But I do believe that one or the other is necessary. Otherwise, you have a formula for constant struggle which is taught by example to each succeeding generation.
But in the end, the practical decisions that are made every day, whether dominated by men or women, are far less important than the love and respect with which we live our lives. The latter is difficult enough without inviting constant battles over the pecking-order.
 
I would highly recommend that every male read St. John Chrysostom’s Homily XX on Ephesians

That great Saint had the best advice I’ve every read on the subject of submission and how! They didn’t call him ‘Golden Mouth’ for nothing.
Thou hast heard how great the submission; thou hast extolled and marvelled at Paul, how, like an admirable and spiritual man, he welds together our whole life. Thou didst well. But now hear what he also requires at thy hands; for again he employs the same example.
“Husbands,” saith he, “love your wives, even as Christ also loved the Church.”
Thou hast seen the measure of obedience, hear also the measure of love. Wouldest thou have thy wife obedient unto thee, as the Church is to Christ? Take then thyself the same provident care for her, as Christ takes for the Church. Yea, even if it shall be needful for thee to give thy life for her, yea, and to be cut into pieces ten thousand times, yea, and to endure and undergo any suffering whatever,-refuse it not.
Though thou shouldest undergo all this, yet wilt thou not, no, not even then, have done anything like Christ. For thou indeed art doing it for one to whom thou art already knit; but He for one who turned her back on Him and hated Him. In the same way then as He laid at His feet her who turned her back on Him, who hated, and spurned, and disdained Him, not by menaces, nor by violence, nor by terror, nor by anything else of the kind, but by his unwearied affection; so also do thou behave thyself toward thy wife. Yea, though thou see her looking down upon thee, and disdaining, and scorning thee, yet by thy great thoughtfulness for her, by affection, by kindness, thou wilt be able to lay her at thy feet.
For there is nothing more powerful to sway than these bonds, and especially for husband and wife. A servant, indeed, one will be able, perhaps, to bind down by fear; nay not even him, for he will soon start away and be gone. But the partner of one’s life, the mother of one’s children, the foundation of one’s every joy, one ought never to chain down by fear and menaces, but with love and good temper. For what sort of union is that, where the wife trembles at her husband? And what sort of pleasure will the husband himself enjoy, if he dwells with his wife as with a slave, and not as with a free-woman? Yea, though thou shouldest suffer anything on her account, do not upbraid her; for neither did Christ do this.
Us guys are called to Love our wives as CHRIST LOVES THE CHURCH. That’s one heck of a command folks. Think about how deep that love is. Yes, Christ has authority over the Church, but could He ever ask any ill of His Bride. Could He do anything to her that wasn’t good?

That’s what we are called to live up to.
 
40.png
Bobo:
Like Lewis, I can only speculate why Scripture appears to embrace a patriarchial rather than matriarchial social structure. I’m not a sociologists and can’t present evidence that one or the other is superior.
It would be good to keep in mind that revealed truths do not rely on our ability to prove them true. If God through the inspired words of Scripture has commanded the patriarchal model, it is our foremost duty to submit to this truth. Sociological or philosophical theories on the “why” are laudable and useful, but not strictly necessary.

The same goes for any other truth of the Faith. We can talk about the reasonableness of the sacraments or of the intercession of Mary, but we accept these things because they have been divinely revealed, not because we can “prove” them.
 
Regarding Robertaf’s comments about Adam and Eve, I’d like to offer an insight.

Most people think Eve sinned first. But I believe Adam’s sin was precisely concurrent. He saw her being tempted, and he said nothing to defend the truth and to call on her to do what he knew was right. His was a sin of omission. A failure to even try to lead and exhort in the face of an impending evil.

There could be any number of reasons why he acted that way. I can imagine him feeling tempted himself, but whether less bold or more cunning, thinking, “Hmmm, let’s see what happens to her.” Was he actually letting her be the guinea pig? Or perhaps he was just afraid to offend and question her judgment or oppose her will?

The bottom line is that he should have done everything he could have done to stop her…perhaps even including using physical restraint. But from the Genesis account, it appears he passively went along with her decision, essentially condoning it, and thereby incurred the sin on himself, too.

This may have something to do with the leadership issues we are talking about with regard to the directive that women should be submissive to their husbands.

There is a very scholarly article by Robert Sungenis on this question at catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/pastoral/mulieris–dignitatem6.htm on this issue.

One of the most fascinating points it brings up, for me, is the parallelism of Genesis 4:7 and Genesis 3:16.

In pronouncing to Eve the effects of original sin, God says in Genesis 3:16 “Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”

According to Sungenis, the Hebrew word here for desire includes idea of “desiring to control” her husband, so the passage may be read as she will desire to rule her husband but he shall rule over her.
“Prior to sin, Eve’s motives would be untainted by a desire to usurp Adam’s authority, and thus she would naturally assume her designated place as wife, helper and subordinate. Sin, however, would tempt her to see otherwise. Projecting this into the future, we can safely say that whenever we see women assuming authority over men and seeking to supplant them as God’s rulers, it is due to sin.”

The same phrase is used in Genesis 4:7 when God says to Cain: “sin is crouching at the door and its desire is toward you, but you shall rule over it.” Here we see that sin’s desire is to rule over Cain, but God tells Cain to rule over sin. Sungenis:
"Thus, Genesis 4:7 helps explain the relationship in the Hebrew grammar between the “desire” and the “ruling.” In this light, the consequence of Eve’s sin is not that Adam would suddenly be put in authority over Eve. It was just the opposite. Adam was already in authority over Eve and sin would tempt her to desire to rule over Adam. But God would frustrate her desire and see to it that Adam maintained his God-given rule over her. If God ever relaxes that rule, it is not because He wishes women to be liberated from their husband’s rule, but because He is allowing sin to multiply for the purposes of judgment (e.g., 2 Thess 2:7-11), as we saw was also the case in Israel (Isaiah 3:12). "

In the context of what I said above about Adam’s sin in failing to stop Eve, an additional interpretation is that God is instructing women to not seek to dominate their husbands but is also admonishing men to stand up for what is right, even if doing so may upset their wives. Obviously, wives should also refuse to do evil or remain silent in the face of a husband intending or doing evil. But perhaps, in the nature of things, or at least in an echo of original sin, there is a tendency for women to seek to dominate husbands and for men to remain silent when they should instead be bold.

I offer no answers, but I do believe it is something to meditate upon.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top