Spousal Subordination

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iguana27

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I was reading up on mantillas here.

This site, along with some other traditional voices, emphasize the duty of the wife to submit to the husband, as found in Eph. 5:22-23.

Why do you think it is that so many people, when discussing this issue, omit Eph 5:21?

215** Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ. 6 **
22 Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body. 24 As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her 26 to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, 27 that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 So (also) husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”
It seems to me that Scripture asks for mutual submission.

I am also concerned about the view that man (as in male man, not mankind) reflects God and woman reflects man. This sounds like some sort of patriarchal bias, and does not seem to jibe with Paul’s view that “in Christ there is neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek.”

Does this website reflect Catholic teaching? If so, help me understand it. If not, explain what you believe to be more in line with Church teaching…

Any charitable, non-inflammatory help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

God Bless,
Iguana
 
Many people and unfortunately even Catholic’s distort this teaching to justify male dominion over woman. Fortunately the Pope doesn’t agree. He deals with this verse in length in Thelogy of the Body. In fact he says this is one of the most impressive verses in the New testament, that all flows and ebbs from this… or something like that anyway. Christopher West does a great job in unpacking the dense theology for the layman. It is well worth the study time. After studying this document, lives are changed profoundly. A short one that is good is his “Winning the Battle for Sexual Purity.” It’s written primarily for men, but I benefited from it very much. He also offers a complete study with study guide on the Theology of the Body.
 
Dear iguana 27,
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iguana27:
Why do you think it is that so many people, when discussing this issue, omit Eph 5:21?
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I don’t know how to answer your question about Ephesians, but MAY be able to help with this…
iquana27:
I am also concerned about the view that man (as in male man, not mankind) reflects God and woman reflects man. This sounds like some sort of patriarchal bias, and does not seem to jibe with Paul’s view that “in Christ there is neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek.”
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I spent the last several months in a study group (FAMILIAI) where we read *Mulieris Dignitatum * (On the Dignity and Vocation of Women), written by Pope John Paul II in 1988. In no way can I encapsulate his writings, but I can say that after reading MD I now feel honored to have been born a woman.

May I suggest reading Articles 23-27 in *Mulieris Dignitatum * and maybe you’ll find some enlightment there?

If available, you may want to consider joining a FAMILIA group. My views on my role as a wife and mother and woman have been radically changed after participating for two years. I am continually amazed at the wisdom and beauty of Church teaching. For more information on FAMILIA go here: familiausa.net

You can read *Mulieris Dignitatum * online at: The Vatican’s Website

I hope this helps!

AMDG,

Debbie
 
Basically I see it as follows: The man has to give up a whole lot more for he is called to die for his bride, to love her as Christ loves the church. We, women, are simply called to love our husbands who are really, truthfully to give up themselves for us. We are supposed to have the easier job but this world has another prince and he likes to mimic God but turn things inside out and so it is usually the woman who ends up doing more and the man less but ideally it is a mutual submission but the initative belongs to the man, loving her fully and ‘dying’ for her, and we submitting to that love. In reality husband and wife love each other through thick and thin and work with the ebb and flow of life together and get as close to the ideal as possible.
 
I’ve often wrestled with this question myself.

You have seemingly contradicting encyclicals with Casti Connubi and Mulieris Dignitatum. CC says the man is the head. MD says man and wife are to mutually submit.

Supposedly truth is not to contradict itself, so somehow there is to be mutual submission while at the same time, the man remains as head of the household.

I asked friends how that is to be and got responses like the man is the provider and protector. However, I didn’t accept that because that would be changing the definition of headship. A worker bee is the provider and protector, but is not the head of the hive.

I think I stumbled across how this relationship is to play out in entirely non-Catholic resources. In Thomas Flemming’s book Liberty! he tells of when Baron Von Stueben came to train the Continental Army at Valley Forge. He brought with him a revolutionary way of thinking - The officers should put the needs of their men ahead of their own! Of course the men still took orders from the officers.

This was made visible in the movie Glory in which a young civil war officer takes command of a company of all-black soldiers. By forfeiting his own selfish interests, the officer won the loyalty of his soldiers who proved willing to follow him to “the gates of hell” so-to-speek.
 
The above remarks about the head being the servant I think are right on point.

This idea of submission is a thorny question for many women, especially western women. I think the root of it is a lack of trust in men and God and the way the idea of submission has been perverted.

Christ taught us that he who would be first must be the servant of all. The head, the king, must serve those over whom he presides. Paul teaches us that this service, when it is a husband to his wife, extends to the very act of laying down his own life for her. Only a his love for God can be more precious to a Christian man the his wife.

A wife is told to submit to her husband, that he is the “master of the house”. And this is so easy to do when you know this man is one who would literally die for you, when it is a man who would spare nothing to see that you are well taken care of, that all your needs are met, that you are not just provided for but that you are reaching the fullness of your human potential.

It gets a little more difficult when you are married to a flesh and blood man who makes stupid mistakes, is lazy, hurtful, faithless, ill-tempered and self-centered. Unfortunately the Bible doesn’t command women to submit to their husbands when these men reach perfection. The commandments to men and women are listed out back to back but separately - one does not hing on the other. Even if he is a cad, you married him and God commands a submission.

I do not see there being a contradiction between Casti Connubi and Mulieris Dignitatum. They are just looking a different aspects of the same issue. Women (mothers) are the heart of the home - men (fathers) are the head of the home. Men and women submit their needs and wills to one another. Their submissions are different as are their sexes as are the roles of mother and father. But they are the same in that they are all encompassing.

There are some circles which take this idea of Godly submission in the wife and run it to an extreme which, IMHO, is not Biblical or even Christian though it claims to be both. This extreme claims that if a wife were to ask her husband to help with the housework this is akin to emasculating him, or that if a women is strong of mind, body or will that she will undermine these qualities in her husband or that if she earns an income she takes away from his headship. This in un-Biblical; Proverbs 31 describes a women who is mentally, physically and emotionally strong, one who is an excellent manager and a provider of income for her household.

-D
 
The above remarks about the head being the servant I think are right on point.

This idea of submission is a thorny question for many women, especially western women. I think the root of it is a lack of trust in men and God and the way the idea of submission has been perverted.

Christ taught us that he who would be first must be the servant of all. The head, the king, must serve those over whom he presides. Paul teaches us that this service, when it is a husband to his wife, extends to the very act of laying down his own life for her. Only a his love for God can be more precious to a Christian man the his wife.

A wife is told to submit to her husband, that he is the “master of the house”. And this is so easy to do when you know this man is one who would literally die for you, when it is a man who would spare nothing to see that you are well taken care of, that all your needs are met, that you are not just provided for but that you are reaching the fullness of your human potential.

It gets a little more difficult when you are married to a flesh and blood man who makes stupid mistakes, is lazy, hurtful, faithless, ill-tempered and self-centered. Unfortunately the Bible doesn’t command women to submit to their husbands when these men reach perfection. The commandments to men and women are listed out back to back but separately - one does not hinge on the other. Even if he is a cad, you married him and God commands a submission.

I do not see there being a contradiction between Casti Connubi and Mulieris Dignitatum. They are just looking a different aspects of the same issue. Women (mothers) are the heart of the home - men (fathers) are the head of the home. Men and women submit their needs and wills to one another. Their submissions are different as are their sexes as are the roles of mother and father. But they are the same in that they are all encompassing.

There are some circles which take this idea of Godly submission in the wife and run it to an extreme which, IMHO, is not Biblical or even Christian though it claims to be both. This extreme claims that if a wife were to ask her husband to help with the housework this is akin to emasculating him, or that if a women is strong of mind, body or will that she will undermine these qualities in her husband or that if she earns an income she takes away from his headship. This in un-Biblical; Proverbs 31 describes a women who is mentally, physically and emotionally strong, one who is an excellent manager and a provider of income for her household.

-D
 
I guess i’m lucky… subordination to your spouse or from your spouse… who (that’s been married for very long) doesn’t experience both and accept both (unless you want a black eye or to be single again)… i’m sorry but i personally PERSONALLY I SAY, don’t see the subordinate thing being a thing within a marriage where to people of like values or faith having a concern… I will watch more discussion on this thread and see what developes, I might have to run home and smack her down… 😃
 
space ghost:
I guess i’m lucky… subordination to your spouse or from your spouse… who (that’s been married for very long) doesn’t experience both and accept both (unless you want a black eye or to be single again)… i’m sorry but i personally PERSONALLY I SAY, don’t see the subordinate thing being a thing within a marriage where to people of like values or faith having a concern… I will watch more discussion on this thread and see what developes, I might have to run home and smack her down… 😃
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😛
only if you would bodily lay down and die for her before you would allow any harm to come to her.

-D
 
Great posts Darcee!

If I may, I am going to elaborate on just one point… One of the above posters commented on both men and women being made in the image of God. Actually, Mankind was created in the Image of God, and this includes both men and women. This means that while both men and women were created to be the image of God, they were created to live this out differently. Although the Holy Spirit is not male or female, women are especially created to be an image of the Holy Spirit (the Spirit is the giver of life, nurturing humanity like an infant at its mother’s breast). Similarly, God is not male or female, but men are especially created to be an image of God the Father, who is a loving Father, protecting and providing for humanity.

In the Bible, both Jesus and the Holy Spirit submit to (or carry out), the will of the Father. However, the will of the Father is merely to pour Himself out in love for the other two Persons in the Trinity and for humanity (this is the servant-leader headship that Darcee spoke of). Therefore, the mutual submission spoken about in Ephesians 5 is almost a “holy competition” of self-giving. However, this submission, or self-giving, is carried out in different ways, each appropriate to the different sexes’ call to live out his or her creation in God’s image.

It is important to understand that at the end of that passage, Paul says he is speaking in reference to Jesus and the Church. Marriage is a sacrament: a sign or symbol instituted by Christ to impart grace. The grace of marriage is that it is the symbol of Christ’s marriage to the Church. Christ has restored marriage to its proper dignity. Submission does not mean that a man should dominate a woman. Instead, submission asks the question, “how is God calling me to give myself completely to my spouse?”.

Although I’m only 20 years old, I have studied and debated spousal submission passages in the Bible for about 5 years now. I used to be a radical feminist and would use all sorts of arguements to discredit the Ephesians 5 passage, but a few years ago I became a New Feminist (praise Jesus!) and finally accepted (and came to value) submission earlier this year. I ended up writing a paper for my theology of marriage course, so if anyone would like to further discuss this topic, please feel free to e-mail me.
Peace,
Jessica
 
Greetings Church,
I will be married 50 years next February. I am an old Irish, redheaded broad, usually good natured but a bit controlling and do have a hot temper if pushed too far.

One of my best friends is a Priest. He knows me pretty well.

One day, he pointed out to me that Satan really knows us and how we act. He didn’t approach Adam but approached Eve. He knew she would take the opportunity to wear the figleaf pants in the family. And that she did!
When God discovered the offence, did he walk into the Garden shouting, Eve, Eve? Nope, he shouted for Adam. “Why did you let her do it?” And what did Adam do? He passed the buck. It was her, Lord, not me.
God got after him because he allowed her to wear the pants.

I try to remember this lesson when I get too carried away with my human nature to control things.
 
I agree with Space Ghost. Through 18 years of marriage my husband and I have submitted to each other. I don’t see how it can be any other way. In our relationship, it’s a none issue. Marital submission is not about control, it’s not about being controlled or wanting to control someone else. It’s about sacrifice. Being willing to sacrifice your wants and needs for the good of your partner, and being able to lovingly accept, acknowledge and appreciate your partner’s sacrifices for you.
 
I am so glad to see that this is not really an issue for some other couples. My husband and I submit to each other (married 5 years) just as my parents (married 37 years) did. I read some of these threads and feel like some kind of big feminist or something. My husband and I both know that one of us always has “the right way” and with prayer we discern. If I just “submitted to my husband” on everything, he would’ve had a vasectomy- in that case, I was definitely the one getting the right/clear “messages”.

I tend to think we both need to lay our lives on the line to get each other to Heaven.

Patty
 
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iguana27:
Why do you think it is that so many people, when discussing this issue, omit Eph 5:21?
…]
It seems to me that Scripture asks for mutual submission.
Click to expand...
Maybe because it’s not clear that verse 21 is the thesis statement for the following passage. It may perhaps be more rightly seen as a summing up of what immediately preceded it: an exhortation to mutual holiness amongst all the saints, so as to not cause any kind of scandal. St. Paul then goes on to describe how this applies to the marital relationship in particular, and immediately says that wives should be subject to their husbands, but does not say the same for the reverse. He never tells husbands to be subject to their wives.
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iguana27:
I am also concerned about the view that man (as in male man, not mankind) reflects God and woman reflects man. This sounds like some sort of patriarchal bias, and does not seem to jibe with Paul’s view that “in Christ there is neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek.”
Click to expand...
“For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. (For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.)” (I Cor. 11:7-9)

I don’t think it’s wise to try to pit St. Paul against himself. On the one hand he says things which sound very “progressive,” but on the other hand is very “patriarchal” (whatever that is taken to mean). Rather than prefer one statement over the other, we need to harmonize the two. Personally I do not see any disharmony between the two ideas, since heirarchy can exist without an essential “betterness” of men over women. Same as the clergy and the laity; one is head over the other, but both are seen equally before the Throne of God.
 
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robertaf:
Greetings Church,
I will be married 50 years next February. I am an old Irish, redheaded broad, usually good natured but a bit controlling and do have a hot temper if pushed too far.

One of my best friends is a Priest. He knows me pretty well.

One day, he pointed out to me that Satan really knows us and how we act. He didn’t approach Adam but approached Eve. He knew she would take the opportunity to wear the figleaf pants in the family. And that she did!
When God discovered the offence, did he walk into the Garden shouting, Eve, Eve? Nope, he shouted for Adam. “Why did you let her do it?” And what did Adam do? He passed the buck. It was her, Lord, not me.
God got after him because he allowed her to wear the pants.

I try to remember this lesson when I get too carried away with my human nature to control things.
Click to expand...
This is the sharpest analysis of that story that I have ever heard. Of course, as a pliant, demure, humble woman, I can’t relate to Eve’s problem at all (cough, choke). This analysis just prompted me to think that by nature – it’s that pre-natal testosterone poisoning that sets up men’s brains to be analytical – men tend to be more “head driven” than women, who tend to go more by the rudder of their feelings. Perhaps for the survival of a people, we need “head people” to be the “head” of the pack . . .?? I speak generally, not particularly (being pretty much a head person myself . . .) My doctor, my lawyer, and my accountant are all women.
 
Yes, the use of 21 as a thesis is very plausible.

Wive’s submit (or be submissive) to your husband’s.

any way the word is from sub missio under the mission of the husband is what it basically says. So, what is hte guys mission? To love as Christ (Passion and Death) loved to sanctify (or at least help in the process) the wife. Basically, wives are to let their husbands sacrifice (always under the ultimate lordship of the Sacred Heart) themselves to the wife.

I really think that guys may be getting the short end of the stick here but that is the way we are built. To be warriors for our wives.

Under the Mercy,

Matthew
 
…Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord.
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Something I’ve never understood…who do single women submit to? Men submit to the Lord, single or married. But I can’t find anything in Scripture about single women.
 
This is a dangerous line of thinking to pursue in governing marital relationships if you do not study the scripture in the context written, in the spirit it was written and with the mind of the Church on the entire topic. You must also deal the linguistic difficulties in translations that arrive at words like submission and subordination unnuanced by the meanings of those terms at the time these scriputures were written, at the time they were first translated into English 500 years ago, and their meaning today.

Have just finished a series of conversation with a relative, young solidly Catholic woman from good “traditional” Catholic family married to a nominal Catholic who is investigating other religions. They have 3 small boys, practice NFP (which he is resisting). His latest church choice is a popular “community” church which has an evangelical prestbyterian root and outlook. They are very much into this “subordination” idea, as articulated by John Milton the great Puritan poet: “He for God alone, she for God in him.”

The husband is trying to force her to accept his new beliefs and forsake hers using this scripture as justification, including not raising the children Catholic, abandoning NFP etc. This particular congregation is home to a lot of upwardly mobile, affluent people in their community and he also wants to join because of business reasons and connections. As with all other scripture guides taken out of context you can go in all sorts of dangerous directions with this route.
 
If a husband loves his wife as Christ loves the Church, there will never be a problem. He will never do anything or ask her to do anything that is not for her well being.
 
RedHead Sue:
Something I’ve never understood…who do single women submit to? Men submit to the Lord, single or married. But I can’t find anything in Scripture about single women.
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Children, of course, are to be obedient to their parents and to the Church. After children are outside of the immediate authority of their parents, they would still be subject to the Church, and also to their employers and to the State. Outside of marriage, I don’t see any particular authorities that women would be exclusively subject to.

I suppose there is the Divine Heirarchy to keep in mind, but that does not seem to involve direct submission to any one person. You might say that men are, in general, responsible to lead others, and in this way women are to follow men, but it’s hard to pin down exactly what that means.
 
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