ss again

[FathersKnowBest]

Christian unity is a wonderful thing. Jesus High Priestly Prayer.

In the case of unity between the Catholic Church and Protestants, division is the only solution so long as Rome holds the position She does on such Important issues as authority and justification.

Your position seems to be that you should obey Jesus and follow the Church HE established so long as that Church agrees with you.

Be sure to tell Jesus that when you meet him. :crying:

 

[FathersKnowBest]

I apologize for being so sarcastic.

I’m sure we all accept your apology, but you still haven’t responded (charitably) to his post.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Lutherans SS is a practice of the church, not of individuals.

Could you explain this?

What is the church, if it is not comprised of individuals?

 

[FathersKnowBest]

As a matter of fact I have no business even discussing this topic until I am much more informed…wow!!!..time to buy more books…my wife will love it for sure…

Ed

Here’s a good, short article that you can read before you read the much larger and more involved Michuta book: 5 Myths about 7 Books

 

[edkw55]

I’m sure we all accept your apology, but you still haven’t responded (charitably) to his post.

Ed

 

[Jon_S_1]

Ed

I think we are good Ed, I feel like you’ve answered.

If there’s a question out there hanging still maybe Fathersknowbest can remind us of it.

 

[pablope]

Sounds very Lutheran.

We don’t deny other authorities - Sola Scriptura only trumps when one of those other authorities goes off the rails,

Well…Ben…who decides when the authorities go off the rails?

And what is one to do when the authorities go off the rails?

 

[pablope]

There is a book or should be , "Why My Bible Is Smaller " detailing all the reasons. Melito, bishop of Sardis around 170 AD did not have the extra books (but also did not have Esther.) Bishop of Caesaria Eusebius recommended his list. Philo, Josephus did not regard Apocrypha as canonical. Epiphanius, bishop of Salarmis in Cyrus references second century list of 39 books. The Hebrew bible itself does not have the extra books. Not sure if Jesus or apostles or NT quotes any Apocryphal books but do most, but not all, the undisputed books. One verse might have a reference to one of the disputed books. Jerome included the disputed books in Vulgate, but doubted them and understood grounds for disputation but understood allegiance to church’s wishes to include them (yet he was the “scholar” ). Maybe he did so as the Septuagint did or first KJV but not as canonical but as for “spiritual reading”…So it is not a protestant canon, the 39.

Well…Pope Damasus came with a list in 382…should that the list to be followed?

And why would you choose Melito over that of Pope Damasus?

 

[edkw55]

Here’s a good, short article that you can read before you read the much larger and more involved Michuta book: 5 Myths about 7 Books

much appreciated…ed

 

[FathersKnowBest]

I think we are good Ed, I feel like you’ve answered.

If there’s a question out there hanging still maybe Fathersknowbest can remind us of it.

The question was how was his answer in post #95 different than the mormon claims?

 

[Jon_S_1]

The question was how was his answer in post #95 different than the mormon claims?

I think Ed is realizing he cannot answer this question because of a lack of knowledge of the development of the New Testament, yes Ed?

 

[sallybutler]

I would say that He is mind boggling.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord.“As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.” Isaiah 55:8-9

That God chose to save any of us sinners, His eternal plan of salvation, His Love, His Mercy, such amazing Grace, He gave us His Son, His Church, His Bible, that is mind boggling.

Seems to me we don’t credit for much of anything…

Soli Deo Gloria! To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

So, based on this, are you willing to admit that it is possible that Jesus did want a visible church, not an invisible church? That He would use the Catholic Church as the home for that visible church for all these centuries? That when it strayed, He would bring individuals to re-direct it back to th correct path?

 

[benhur]

As has been mentioned prior to 395, there were lots of varied lists. NONE of them reflect the Protestant Bible.

Melito’s list includes Wisdom and deletes Esther and has no New Testament listed.

Scholars have shown that over 80% of the New Testament quotes the Septuagint. There are many references of the deuterocanonicals in the New Testament. Even Jesus celebrated as a religious holiday, Channakuh which is found in the book of Maccabees.

But regardless quoting in the New Testament is a poor judge of validity as the following books of the Protestant Old Testament are not quoted;

Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Song of Solomon, Lamentations, Obadiah, Nahum and Zephaniah.

Check out this link for all the references: scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html

Maybe Gary Michudos book should be re titled “Why Protestant Bibles are Smaller” for selling in Protestant book stores.

The truth really is there aren’t many Protestants aware if this issue let alone concerned by it. It is not ever explained to them in any way sometimes not even in their seminaries.

So your choice of books largely is;

1. Catholic Books in defense of us “adding books to the Bible”
2. secular historians which corroborate the above.
3. Protestant anti catholic polemics and books requiring mental gymnastics.

maybe. earliest list as you say is one book off…umm the septuagint i think is 100 % of scripture quotes in nt ,after all it contains the39 ,the 47 even 50 0r more jewsih religious books. my point is none are the disputed books, of the seven you include, are quoted (maybe one reference but not quote not sure )…yes i stated the weakness in looking at what is quoted for even the books as you mentioned that we all accept are not quoted-still leaves 32 or so quoted from . It is a weakness but still has some validity that if Jesus quoted it it is legit. Secular historians i suppose are mixed as we are…Actually some of the seven require gymanatsics to consider as scripture. But that could be another thread.

 

[benhur]

Well…Pope Damasus came with a list in 382…should that the list to be followed?

And why would you choose Melito over that of Pope Damasus?

Respector of persons ? This is another thread and would require more research, but good point, two bishops, though one head, and one much earlier, two different lists. Wagers anyone ?

 

[Jon_S_1]

maybe. earliest list as you say is one book off…umm the septuagint i think is 100 % of scripture quotes in nt ,after all it contains the39 ,the 47 even 50 0r more jewsih religious books. my point is none are the disputed books, of the seven you include, are quoted (maybe one reference but not quote not sure )…yes i stated the weakness in looking at what is quoted for even the books as you mentioned that we all accept are not quoted-still leaves 32 or so quoted from . It is a weakness but still has some validity that if Jesus quoted it it is legit. Secular historians i suppose are mixed as we are…Actually some of the seven require gymanatsics to consider as scripture. But that could be another thread.

No the New Testament sometimes quotes from the hebrew, but mostly greek. if they were using the LXX which always contained all the books then why reject them? Why did Jesus celebrate Hannakuh?

None of the deutercanonicals require any gymnastics

It is just when you build your faith on sandy soil missing some of whats supposed to be there then its hard to reconcile. You are merely saying scripture must succumb to my personal opinions and doctrines, if it doesn’t i reject it . This is why Luther tried to reject the book of James. Such actions place Scripture below your opinions.

When you hold scripture in the right way, as Catholics do. there is no gymnastics necessary. It is a foundation built on rock and no gymnastics necessary.

 

[Seraphignatius]

maybe. earliest list as you say is one book off…umm the septuagint i think is 100 % of scripture quotes in nt ,after all it contains the39 ,the 47 even 50 0r more jewsih religious books. my point is none are the disputed books, of the seven you include, are quoted (maybe one reference but not quote not sure )…yes i stated the weakness in looking at what is quoted for even the books as you mentioned that we all accept are not quoted-still leaves 32 or so quoted from . It is a weakness but still has some validity that if Jesus quoted it it is legit. Secular historians i suppose are mixed as we are…Actually some of the seven require gymanatsics to consider as scripture. But that could be another thread.

The Sadducees only accepted the Pentateuch; the Pharisees only accepted the books the protestants do, and the Hellenes accepted the full catholic old testament canon. Would you like to learn what the bible says about the Hellenes canon? It calls them scripture:

10 But the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea. Who, when they were come thither, went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, who received the word with all eagerness, daily searching the scriptures, whether these things were so.12 And many indeed of them believed, and of honourable women that were Gentiles, and of men not a few.

Now is not all scripture inspired of God and profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct and to instruct in justice?

 

[edkw55]

I would like to make a statement to all posters. A few years back I was drawn to the Roman Catholic Church for a variety of reasons. About two years ago I began doing a great deal of research…lots of books. Last fall I entered RCIA. For six months I was in RCIA and 3 weeks before I was to be confirmed this spring during the Easter Vigil I couldn’t go through with it. I couldn’t honestly confess before God and man that the one true Church established by Jesus Christ is the Roman Catholic Church (and all those in full union with Her). Am I still seriously looking at the Roman Catholic Church? Absolutely! At this point in time I am rock solid Protestant. I will keep doing research, continue reading books, my mind remains open to the possibility but only God can possibly move me to cease being Protestant. If God does lead me to the Roman Catholic Church I will surely submit to Her authority.

Sola scriptura
Sola fide
Sola gratia
Solo Christo
Soli Deo gloria

God bless all.

Ed

 

[adf417]

The words below are not mine. I just want to know if they are true???

In the Catholic Church, “the first infallible and effectually promulgated pronouncement on the Canon” was that defined by the Council of Trent.Trent confirmed the statements of earlier and less authoritative regional councils which also included the deuterocanonical books, such as the Synod of Hippo (393), and the Councils of Carthage of 397. The Councils of Carthage and Hippo did not establish the canon for the Church as a whole. The New Catholic Encyclopedia actually affirms the fact that the Canon was not officially and authoritatively established for the Western Church until the Council of Trent in the 16th century.

I think I need to learn a lot more about the Synod of Hippo and the Councils of Carthage. I am getting a little suspicious.

Ed

You are on the right track Ed!

The above is true in that Trent did officially promulgate what had already been in effect sense the early church and thus closing the canon. The original synod/councils (Carthage/Hippo) were not ecumenical councils but local councils and upon completion sent the results to Rome -

Let this be made known also to our brother and fellow-priest Boniface, or to other bishops of those parts, for the purpose of confirming that Canon [Canon 47 of the Third Council], because we have received from our fathers that these are the books which are to be read in church.’" (The Canon On Scripture, F. F. Bruce - protestant)

Peace!!!

 

[adf417]

I would like to make a statement to all posters. A few years back I was drawn to the Roman Catholic Church for a variety of reasons. About two years ago I began doing a great deal of research…lots of books. Last fall I entered RCIA. For six months I was in RCIA and 3 weeks before I was to be confirmed this spring during the Easter Vigil I couldn’t go through with it. I couldn’t honestly confess before God and man that the one true Church established by Jesus Christ is the Roman Catholic Church (and all those in full union with Her). Am I still seriously looking at the Roman Catholic Church? Absolutely! At this point in time I am rock solid Protestant. I will keep doing research, continue reading books, my mind remains open to the possibility but only God can possibly move me to cease being Protestant. If God does lead me to the Roman Catholic Church I will surely submit to Her authority.

Sola scriptura
Sola fide
Sola gratia
Solo Christo
Soli Deo gloria

God bless all.

Ed

May the peace and love of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you on your journey. Take your time, pace yourself, pray, and allow the Holy Spirit to do His work and allow yourself to be filled with peace and joy.

 

[benhur]

No the New Testament sometimes quotes from the hebrew, but mostly greek. if they were using the LXX which always contained all the books then why reject them?

Not sure what you mean by Hebrew for 100% of Hebrew bible is in the Septuagint, unless you mean the quote is actual Hebrew like some of the stuff said at the cross. OK. Again the CC does not retain all the LXX either. The CC rejected some LXX books.

Why did Jesus celebrate Hannakuh?

Did he? That the time of year is talked of in terms of a festival does not mean He celebrated it. He went to the temple, the Court of the Gentiles and no where else, and the Jews went to Him and he “taught”. It is like saying around Christmas time a Rabbi ,a priest and an atheist met . Are we to assume then it was to celebrate Christmas ?( No ,but it does sound like the beginning of a joke.) It is pure assumption that because “he went to the temple” during a festival, it was to "celebrate ". Really , celebrate, when they were trying to kill him ? And celebrate with things that were not scriptural, (9 candles instead of 7) and a myth about oil ? It is my opinion He did not celebrate Hannukah.

None of the deutercanonicals require any gymnastics

OK. Why are they not in Hebrew bible ?

It is just when you build your faith on sandy soil missing some of whats supposed to be there then its hard to reconcile. You are merely saying scripture must succumb to my personal opinions and doctrines, if it doesn’t i reject it .

Goes both ways, to reject or to accept could be biased couldn’t it ?

This is why Luther tried to reject the book of James.

Yes, many say this and it could be partly true, but he did include them. One must remember the times. Erasmus and Cardinal Cajetan doubted canonicity like Luther and the CC had “looser” views of canonical books but tightened things up in response at Trent. But ok, Luther was not perfect and his prefaces are there to judge that, but did include them all, right ?