ss again

[benhur]

I wanted to add something to recent thread on sola scriptura, had it all typed up and the thread closed just before i hit post button posted so i thought maybe reopen it here if anybody is interested:. Here is what I had:

This idea that scripture was the highest authority was invented by men who rejected church authority.

Is that like the idea that the church is the highest authority was invented by men who didn’t want to straddle scriptural authority ?

Scripture is replete with references to a Church empowered by Christ and led by the Spirit into all truth.

Yes and… Show me one scripture that says the church is above scripture.

Paul, as an Apostle, claimed this authority and used it when he told the Thessalonians to hold onto the teaching (Traditions)

Yes and then what did he say about his letter, it is less authoritative ? Doesn’t the latest word have the last say ? That because tradition was first does not mean the second (written ) is not just as binding if not more binding. Never heard of oral word being more binding than a later written word…

So protestantism (definition of SS) has gone from only one authority to more than one authority.

The suggestion that “scripture alone” was said in a vacuum and meant just that, to the exclusion of all other authority, is weird for scripture itself talks of many authorities. Truth can be stranger than fiction but not in this case.

 

[Seraphignatius]

I wanted to add something to recent thread on sola scriptura, had it all typed up and the thread closed just before i hit post button posted so i thought maybe reopen it here if anybody is interested:. Here is what I had: Is that like the idea that the church is the highest authority was invented by men who didn’t want to straddle scriptural authority ? Yes and… Show me one scripture that says the church is above scripture. Yes and then what did he say about his letter, it is less authoritative ? Doesn’t the latest word have the last say ? That because tradition was first does not mean the second (written ) is not just as binding if not more binding. Never heard of oral word being more binding than a later written word… The suggestion that “scripture alone” was said in a vacuum and meant just that, to the exclusion of all other authority, is weird for scripture itself talks of many authorities. Truth can be stranger than fiction but not in this case.

I. What books belong in the bible and why.

II.What is the pillar foundation of religious truth?

III. Where is sola scriptura in the bible? In otherwords show me one scripture that says scripture is above the church.

 

[JerryZ]

What came first?

The Church OR The New Testament?

When St. Paul or the other Apostles referred to “The Scriptures”, ALWAYS referred to the Old Testament.
This is also valid for “The Law” which refers to the “Law of Moses” or “The Torah” where the Law of Moses is written down.

So if the Church had the authority to decide what constitutes “Inspired by GOD” and what is not and this Church so happens to continue to be on this earth as promised by it’s founder, a 33 years old carpenter from Nazareth what convincing proof can you produce to make us change our minds about it.

Please do not use the “The Church got corrupted” That my friend is calling Jesus a liar.

His Church will be here untill the end of times. Nothing will prevail aginst Her.
Will the people that are in His Church be “perfect”? I highly doubt it, we are all sinners in desperate need of help, but His Church will never flounder. God will keep sending us Saints and Holy Priests and Laity that will continue till the end. That we keep praying GOD to do.

---

 

[Jon_S_1]

: Is that like the idea that the church is the highest authority was invented by men who didn’t want to straddle scriptural authority ?

Matt 18:15-17

15 “If your brother or sister** sins,[c] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[d] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Where is Scripture in this process?

Acts 15- Where is Scripture in that process?

Yes and… Show me one scripture that says the church is above scripture.

The above passages which make mention of the church but not scripture should suffice.

Also the fact that the church existed prior to scripture is proof that the church has authority alongside the scriptures it gave. It is not above scripture, it is just that neither scripture nor tradition can be removed from each other.

As for the letters Paul wrote , they are only worthwhile alongside the oral teachings already given to the people.

It makes no sense to say “forget all you were taught. Read these letters and figure it out”

http://chirho.me/memes/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/sola-scriptura-wonka.jpg**

 

[Jon_S_1]

I wanted to add something to recent thread on sola scriptura, had it all typed up and the thread closed just before i hit post button posted so i thought maybe reopen it here if anybody is interested:. Here is what I had: Is that like the idea that the church is the highest authority was invented by men who didn’t want to straddle scriptural authority ? Yes and… Show me one scripture that says the church is above scripture. Yes and then what did he say about his letter, it is less authoritative ? Doesn’t the latest word have the last say ? That because tradition was first does not mean the second (written ) is not just as binding if not more binding. Never heard of oral word being more binding than a later written word… The suggestion that “scripture alone” was said in a vacuum and meant just that, to the exclusion of all other authority, is weird for scripture itself talks of many authorities. Truth can be stranger than fiction but not in this case.

 

[adf417]

Is that like the idea that the church is the highest authority was invented by men who didn’t want to straddle scriptural authority ? .

Only when one redefines “church” as only the invisible body.

Yes and… Show me one scripture that says the church is above scripture.

There always this: But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Peace!!!

 

[benjohnson]

Theses discussions between Protestants and Catholics about Sola Scriptura would go much better if we Protestants (in general) had better hermeneutics. Frankly, from my Lutheran standpoint, my Catholic friends get their Scripture 99.95% correct. I dearly wish my Protestant friends did as well.

…

That said, the argument that “Scripture has to say Scripture is Best!” isn’t really logical.

Predicates in logic have to be assumed generally - and in least in the Lutheran world the idea that God’s Words trumps all seems to be a safe assumption.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Originally Posted by ezeekl
This idea that scripture was the highest authority was invented by men who rejected church authority.

No, since the former is true and the latter is false.
So, for those who can discern the difference between truth and falsehood, there is a distinct difference.

Yes and… Show me one scripture that says the church is above scripture.

This is quite a strawman.

No, not above scripture, since truth is never above truth.

That’s like asking you to show that Romans is above Acts.

Yes and then what did he say about his letter, it is less authoritative ? Doesn’t the latest word have the last say ?

That may be true in Islam, but not Christianity. (The principle of “abrogation” where newer teachings supersede older teachings in the Quran)

That because tradition was first does not mean the second (written ) is not just as binding if not more binding. Never heard of oral word being more binding than a later written word…

Are you suggesting that St. Paul’s oral teaching contradicted his written tradition?

 

[Jon_S_1]

Theses discussions between Protestants and Catholics about Sola Scriptura would go much better if we Protestants (in general) had better hermeneutics. Frankly, from my Lutheran standpoint, my Catholic friends get their Scripture 99.95% correct. I dearly wish my Protestant friends did as well.

…

That said, the argument that “Scripture has to say Scripture is Best!” isn’t really logical.

Predicates in logic have to be assumed generally - and in least in the Lutheran world the idea that God’s Words trumps all seems to be a safe assumption.

Gods Word is oral and that oral word is sometimes written by his prophets and inspired writers right?!

 

[pablope]

I wanted to add something to recent thread on sola scriptura, had it all typed up and the thread closed just before i hit post button posted so i thought maybe reopen it here if anybody is interested:.

Here is what I had: Is that like the idea that the church is the highest authority was invented by men who didn’t want to straddle scriptural authority ? Yes and…

 

[benhur]

Well…Ben…here is a question…how does Scripture exercise authority? Can you give a concrete example of Scripturte exercising its authority?

Again,do you hold that SS definition has changed, and does it acknowledge all sorts of authority or does it specifically deny any other sources ? Scripture exercised herself thrice when the Lord was tempted in the desert. Scripture execised herself and led Peter to appoint a replacement for Judas and again to seal the testimony of Peter and Paul of God’s redemptive actions towards the Gentiles as quoted by James. Scripture was revealed and burned in the hearts of the men traveling unknowingly with the risen Christ…Scripture wants to exercise herself thru all other authorities, including you and me.

Where does Scripture say it is the pillar and foundation of Truth?

Why are we that ? Because we hold the Words of truth, the Word(s) of God ? Why would one not want His written Word as “the” authoritaive" source today. Yes, in the USA we are the government, yet I dare say the constitution is our ultimate source for that authority.

And where does Scripture say, to learn and to know the truth…what is one to do? Where does Scripture say, to learn and know the truth…to read Scripture?

And how are we *perfectly furnished *unto *every *good work per Timothy ? Search the scriptures for in them ye have life.

 

[benhur]

Theses discussions between Protestants and Catholics about Sola Scriptura would go much better if we Protestants (in general) had better hermeneutics. Frankly, from my Lutheran standpoint, my Catholic friends get their Scripture 99.95% correct. I dearly wish my Protestant friends did as well.

…

That said, the argument that “Scripture has to say Scripture is Best!” isn’t really logical.

Predicates in logic have to be assumed generally - and in least in the Lutheran world the idea that God’s Words trumps all seems to be a safe assumption.

Hey , I resemble those remarks…humor aside it can be quite simple if one steps back, like really, just how authoritative is God’s Word ? Do you really want to ask that ? The most we can quibble about is whether it is or isn’t His Word. But once we agree that it is (99.5 % agreed as you say) you would think that would be it… Let every man be a liar only God (His Word) is true.

 

[Contarini]

I wanted to add something to recent thread on sola scriptura, had it all typed up and the thread closed just before i hit post button posted so i thought maybe reopen it here if anybody is interested:. Here is what I had: Is that like the idea that the church is the highest authority was invented by men who didn’t want to straddle scriptural authority ?

Or rather, it was articulated by people who were dealing with the division and confusion caused by people who set up their own interpretation of Scripture above the common teaching of the Church. Never mind the question over what is Scripture in the first place.

Do you actually want to learn about Ignatius and Irenaeus and the other early Church Fathers who laid the foundation for the Catholic understanding of Church authority? Because we can talk about them, and/or I can recommend good sources (of varying religious perspectives) for further study. Or you can just make your rhetorical flourish and move on, if that’s what you want to do.

Yes and… Show me one scripture that says the church is above scripture.

I’ll do better than that–I’ll give you an official Catholic teaching saying that it isn’t:

But the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on, (8) has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church, (9) whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ.** This teaching office is not above the word of God, but serves it,** teaching only what has been handed on, listening to it devoutly, guarding it scrupulously and explaining it faithfully in accord with a divine commission and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it draws from this one deposit of faith everything which it presents for belief as divinely revealed.

(Dei Verbum chap. 2.)

Yes and then what did he say about his letter, it is less authoritative ? Doesn’t the latest word have the last say ?

Not necessarily. And why set them over against each other at all?

That because tradition was first does not mean the second (written ) is not just as binding if not more binding. Never heard of oral word being more binding than a later written word…

And it isn’t. That’s a straw man.

The Church upholds the whole of divine revelation. It’s not about “greater” and “lesser.” It’s about reading Scripture in its proper context.

Edwin

 

[benhur]

Only when one redefines “church” as only the invisible body.

I know. Sometimes that word “invisible” pops up and it is misleading. Yes, the Vicar is the HS who is invisible but He sure works visibly thru us, in us and in this world. Like Jesus says, you can’t see the wind but it sure rustles thru the trees. …No the church is quite visible, good point. Deacons and pastors and presbyters/bishops are quite visible, not to mention prophets and teachers and apostles and healers, the visible Body, of God’s fingertip on the earth.

 

[Contarini]

Theses discussions between Protestants and Catholics about Sola Scriptura would go much better if we Protestants (in general) had better hermeneutics. Frankly, from my Lutheran standpoint, my Catholic friends get their Scripture 99.95% correct. I dearly wish my Protestant friends did as well.

…

That said, the argument that “Scripture has to say Scripture is Best!” isn’t really logical.

Predicates in logic have to be assumed generally - and in least in the Lutheran world the idea that God’s Words trumps all seems to be a safe assumption.

But that’s not the debate. The debate is over just where God’s Word is to be found.

The Catholic Church holds that the Word is found in both Scripture and Tradition. Scripture is different because Scripture not only contains but is the Word of God. The other “monuments of Tradition” such as papal encyclicals, conciliar documents, the writings of the Fathers, etc., are not themselves the Word of God and contain many things that are not the Word of God. But they also bear the Word, as do the liturgy, the living heritage of Catholic spirituality, the “sense of the faithful,” etc.

Edwin

 

[edkw55]

That said, the argument that “Scripture has to say Scripture is Best!” isn’t really logical.

Predicates in logic have to be assumed generally - and at least in the Lutheran world the idea that God’s Words trumps all seems to be a safe assumption.

That was well stated and I couldn’t agree with you more.

Ed

p.s.hey Josey, benhur, and ya all…here we go again

 

[Jon_S_1]

Hey , I resemble those remarks…humor aside it can be quite simple if one steps back, like really, just how authoritative is God’s Word ? Do you really want to ask that ? The most we can quibble about is whether it is or isn’t His Word. But once we agree that it is (99.5 % agreed as you say) you would think that would be it… Let every man be a liar only God (His Word) is true.

The problem is not “is it Gods Word”. Of course it is!

The problem is, the interpretation, and especially the interpretation when it’s removed from the church from which it was given.

Is it the Catholic, orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, evangelicals, Mormons, baptists , fundamentalists, etc etc etc

Whose is right?

The Bible doesn’t speak for itself.

It is read through a lens.

Catholics hold that we read it through the lens of the Apostolic Church.

We read Corinthians with the frame of the Church on Corinth who received it.

 

[edkw55]

The problem is not “is it Gods Word”. Of course it is!

The problem is, the interpretation, and especially the interpretation when it’s removed from the church from which it was given.

Is it the Catholic, orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, evangelicals, Mormons, baptists , fundamentalists, etc etc etc

Whose is right?

The Bible doesn’t speak for itself.

It is read through a lens.

Catholics hold that we read it through the lens of the Apostolic Church.

We read Corinthians with the frame of the Church on Corinth who received it.

Catholics and Protestants agree that the Bible is the Word of God.

Does interpretations lead to problems? Yes.

Nevertheless, the Bible does speak for itself.

Roman Catholics are of the opinion that “the one true Church established by Jesus Christ is the Roman Catholic Church” is a true statement therefore possessing the infallible Authority of Sacred Tradition/Sacred Magesterium “Catholics hold that we read it through the lens of the Apostolic Church”…only They have the Authority to infallibly interpret Scripture.

Protestants disagree and insist on Sola Scriptura.

 

[edkw55]

…it can be quite simple if one steps back, like really, just how authoritative is God’s Word ? Do you really want to ask that ? The most we can quibble about is whether it is or isn’t His Word. But once we agree that it is (99.5 % agreed as you say) you would think that would be it… Let every man be a liar only God (His Word) is true.

Well said benhur…ed

 

[Seraphignatius]

Why is the Gospel of John scripture and not the Gospel of Thomas?

Why is the book of Revelations scripture and not the writings of Clement of Rome?

Why are the Acts of the Apostles scripture and not the Acts of Andrew?

Why is Lutheranism true and not Gnosticism?

Gnosticism has a better pedigree; it goes back to the time of the apostles, and they both are condemned by the same Church who decided which books belong in the Bible.