SS practicing Christian: What do you say Scripture is?

[Abu]

susanlo #20
What are the contents of Sacred Tradition? Is it recorded in certain documents? I am not familiar with Catholic teaching, but I have some people who are close to me who are. They aren’t sure how to explain it.

How has Sacred Tradition been handed on?
Sacred Tradition, which is divine revelation in oral form, has been handed on by the Church’s doctrine, life, and worship.

What is the Church’s role in Sacred Tradition?
The Church’s role in Sacred Tradition is to perpetuate and transmit to every generation all that the Church herself is and all that she believes.

Why is Sacred Tradition of equal authority with the Bible?
The Bible and Sacred Tradition are of equal authority because they are equally the word of God; both draw on the vision of God incarnate, who gave to the apostles what He came down on earth to teach.

In what way does Sacred Tradition differ from Sacred Scripture?
Sacred Tradition differs from Sacred Scripture in that it is a living reality while Sacred Scripture is a tangible product contained in the inspired books.

Who is divinely authorized to interpret Scripture and Tradition?
The infallible teaching authority of the Church, the guardian of revealed truth, is divinely authorized to interpret Scripture and Tradition.
SEE: *Catholic Questions and Answers *by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
therealpresence.org/archives/Q_and_A/Q_and_A_024.htm

 

[benhur]

The myopia in choosing to quote those who express mere opinions as against the Catholic Church’s doctrine explains the continued confusion and failure to assent to the reality of what Christ’s Church actually teaches, like those cafeteria Catholics who pick and choose.

Thus the Catholic Church’s teaching is very clear – in the supremely wise arrangement of God, Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others.

Hi Abu ,

OK. Thank you. I agree with you more on what is the official CC stance “scriptura equalis”. Do not want to put the other C poster on the spot. He did say the CC "kind of " practices a sort of "prima’’ but certainly not "sola’’.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

]B]In what way does Sacred Tradition differ from Sacred Scripture?

Sacred Tradition differs from Sacred Scripture in that it is a living reality while Sacred Scripture is a tangible product contained in the inspired books.
Hi Abu,

Is Sacred Tradition then also theopneustos?

Blessings

 

[benhur]

What are the contents of Sacred Tradition? Is it recorded in certain documents? I am not familiar with Catholic teaching, but I have some people who are close to me who are. They aren’t sure how to explain it.

Hi s, welcome to CAF,

“Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move toward the same goal. Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit. And Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching. Thus it comes about that the Church does not draw her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Hence both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal feelings of devotion and reverence.(7)”

from 2nd Vatican council

I personally question the underlined as being circular.

aomin.org/aoblog/index.php/2009/06/07/tradition-as-viewed-by-popular-roman-catholic-apologists-and-a-response/

Blessings

 

[Lenten_ashes]

The myopia in choosing to quote those who express mere opinions as against the Catholic Church’s doctrine explains the continued confusion and failure to assent to the reality of what Christ’s Church actually teaches, like those cafeteria Catholics who pick and choose.

Thus the Catholic Church’s teaching is very clear – in the supremely wise arrangement of God, Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others.

He quoted me and I fully understand the churches position of the 3 legged stool.

Anglicans and a few others practice “prima scriptura”. They rely on tradition(small t)/ECF’s and the “disputed” books for teaching and church practice.

In the Catholic Church, even though we have the Magisterium and Sacred Tradition, they are not above Sacred Scripture. They support it and/or protect it, but they are not above it.

The point being was that I think Anglicans and a few others have a much more rational approach than Baptists and/or Fundamentalists. There were “reformers” and then there are radical reformers throughout the ages.

The Lord be with you.

 

[Abu]

Benhur 324
"Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move toward the same goal.”
I personally question the underlined as being circular.

That’s precisely why you are unable to follow Christ as He mandated – in His Church – you fantasise to produce error.

There is nothing “circular” about it.

The reality is that on the first level we argue to the reliability of the Bible as history. From that we conclude an infallible Church was founded. Then we take the word of that infallible Church that the Bible is inspired. It reduces to the proposition that, without the existence of the Church, we could not tell if the Bible were inspired. As St Augustine said, ‘I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.’ ”

Thus,
What is the Church’s role in Sacred Tradition?
The Church’s role in Sacred Tradition is to perpetuate and transmit to every generation all that the Church herself is and all that she believes.

Why is Sacred Tradition of equal authority with the Bible?
The Bible and Sacred Tradition are of equal authority because they are equally the word of God; both draw on the vision of God incarnate, who gave to the apostles what He came down on earth to teach.
therealpresence.org/archives/Q_and_A/Q_and_A_024.htm

That infallible Church established by the Christ has His full authority to “say so” as She teaches dogma and doctrine infallibly by His command.

 

[Abu]

benhur #23
Is Sacred Tradition then also theopneustos?

Of course it is inspired by God, through His Catholic Church as both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture are of equal authority because they are equally the word of God; both draw on the vision of God incarnate, who gave to the apostles what He came down on earth to teach.

 

[jmcrae]

Hi Abu,

Is Sacred Tradition then also theopneustos?

Blessings

Yes. It was given to the holy Apostles by Jesus Christ. They heard it with their natural ears and lived it, and transmitted it to succeeding generations through the Scriptures, through the Sacraments, and through their devotional practices, above all, through the Mass, which encompasses all of these modes of transmission.

What distinguishes the Scriptures from all other writings is that they are proclaimed at Mass in the Liturgy of the Word. We know what are the Scriptures because they are what is suitable to be proclaimed at Mass, as discerned by the Councils of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage in the later years of the fourth century.

 

[alwayswill]

…

Why is Sacred Tradition of equal authority with the Bible?
The Bible and Sacred Tradition are of equal authority because they are equally the word of God; both draw on the vision of God incarnate, who gave to the apostles what He came down on earth to teach.
therealpresence.org/archives/Q_and_A/Q_and_A_024.htm

…

do you agree with this point from the OP?

“God speaking from His Throne; Jesus preaching from the Mount, and ALL God breathed writings carry the same EQUAL authority.”

 

[Abu]

Alwayswill #29
do you agree with this point from the OP?
“God speaking from His Throne; Jesus preaching from the Mount, and ALL God breathed writings carry the same EQUAL authority.”

The “God breathed writings”, if you mean the Sacred Scriptures collected and authorised by books and translations by the Catholic Church founded by God the Son, Jesus of Nazareth, carry the authority of Christ’s Catholic Church.

The multitudinous self-interpretations of what is taught therein, plus the exclusion of essential Scripture, have resulted in thousands of sects each teaching something different, and have resulted further in all sorts of immoral practices, and the loss of the Priesthood, Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and Christ’s own Body and Blood, along with several sacraments which transmit grace.

Trying to identify and separate “God breathed writings” and their interpretation, from Christ’s Church has resulted in enormous harm.

 

[alwayswill]

The “God breathed writings”, if you mean the Sacred Scriptures collected and authorised by books and translations by the Catholic Church founded by God the Son, Jesus of Nazareth, carry the authority of Christ’s Catholic Church.

The multitudinous self-interpretations of what is taught therein, plus the exclusion of essential Scripture, have resulted in thousands of sects each teaching something different, and have resulted further in all sorts of immoral practices, and the loss of the Priesthood, Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and Christ’s own Body and Blood, along with several sacraments which transmit grace.

Trying to identify and separate “God breathed writings” and their interpretation, from Christ’s Church has resulted in enormous harm.

You did not answer my question:
Does Scripture have the same authority as God speaking from His throne?

And I could ask you:
If you were actually there to hear Christ’s Sermon on the Mount: does anyon’e misunderstanding diminish the authority of Christ?

Does the misunderstanding of God speaking from His throne diminish the authority of God speaking from His throne?

Does the misunderstanding of the teachings of Christ’s Church diminish the authority of Christ’s Church?

Re: Scripture, I asked:
Does the misunderstanding of God’s word diminish the authority of God’s word?

Does misunderstanding reduce authority?

 

[susanlo]

**
In what way does Sacred Tradition differ from Sacred Scripture?**
Sacred Tradition differs from Sacred Scripture in that it is a living reality while Sacred Scripture is a tangible product contained in the inspired books.
by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
therealpresence.org/archives/Q_and_A/Q_and_A_024.htm

I think the fact that Tradition is a “living reality” is why I find it so hard to understand what it is. I understand that the documents produced at the councils over the centuries are considered to be part of Sacred Tradition. (Correct me if I am wrong). Are there any other tangible documents that are part of Tradition? Are the documents created at the councils considered to be God-breathed in the same way that the Scriptures were created? Are they equal to Scripture in authority or are they secondary, but considered to be essential?

 

[jmcrae]

I think the fact that Tradition is a “living reality” is why I find it so hard to understand what it is. I understand that the documents produced at the councils over the centuries are considered to be part of Sacred Tradition. (Correct me if I am wrong). Are there any other tangible documents that are part of Tradition? Are the documents created at the councils considered to be God-breathed in the same way that the Scriptures were created? Are they equal to Scripture in authority or are they secondary, but considered to be essential?

They are evidence of it; they aren’t part of it, as such. The priest saying Mass or hearing Confessions is part of it; the little old ladies praying in front of the Tabernacle are part of it; children studying their Catechism or singing in a Church choir are part of it. The Scriptures are part of it, and the Bishop quizzing those same kids at the end of their lessons is part of it - and when the Bishop steps into the public eye to denounce public immorality, he is the quintessential expression of it.

 

[susanlo]

They are evidence of it; they aren’t part of it, as such. The priest saying Mass or hearing Confessions is part of it; the little old ladies praying in front of the Tabernacle are part of it; children studying their Catechism or singing in a Church choir are part of it. The Scriptures are part of it, and the Bishop quizzing those same kids at the end of their lessons is part of it - and when the Bishop steps into the public eye to denounce public immorality, he is the quintessential expression of it.

So is the above a list of examples of the content of Sacred Tradition? Are these examples considered to be God-breathed and/or as authoritative as Bible passages?

 

[Abu]

susanlo #32
I understand that the documents produced at the councils over the centuries are considered to be part of Sacred Tradition. (Correct me if I am wrong).

The teaching of the Church, including that of the Ecumenical Councils is part of the Magisterium (teaching authority) established by Christ, which pronounces the dogmas and doctrines.

Are there any other tangible documents that are part of Tradition? Are the documents created at the councils considered to be God-breathed in the same way that the Scriptures were created? Are they equal to Scripture in authority or are they secondary, but considered to be essential?

The Bible and Sacred Tradition are of equal authority because they are equally the word of God; both draw on the vision of God incarnate, who gave to the apostles what He came down on earth to teach.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church
See: kofc.org/un/en/catechism/index.html#
77 “In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority.” 35 Indeed, “the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time.” 36

78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, “the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes.” 37 “The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer.” 38

79 The Father’s self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: “God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church - and through her in the world - leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness.” 39

II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE
One common source. . .
80 “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal.” 40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age”. 41

. . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 “Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit.” 42

“And [Holy] **Tradition **transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching.” 43

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, “does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honoured with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.” 44
[My emphases]

 

[jmcrae]

So is the above a list of examples of the content of Sacred Tradition? Are these examples considered to be God-breathed and/or as authoritative as Bible passages?

They lead us to Christ in the same way (and sometimes with even greater effect) that the Scriptures do.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I think the fact that Tradition is a “living reality” is why I find it so hard to understand what it is. I understand that the documents produced at the councils over the centuries are considered to be part of Sacred Tradition. (Correct me if I am wrong). Are there any other tangible documents that are part of Tradition? Are the documents created at the councils considered to be God-breathed in the same way that the Scriptures were created? Are they equal to Scripture in authority or are they secondary, but considered to be essential?

I’ve used this very simplistic example before (and benhur laughed hysterically at me lol )

The happy bday song…you know it, if you have kids they probably know it, grandma knows it, her mom knew it, etc, etc. But you probably don’t have it stored in a safe somewhere. It’s just understood…it’s “living tradition”

I think any other church without the pedigree of the RCC that would make such claims about scripture originating from their tradition, therefore being equal to it, should be dismissed as cultish, making baseless claims.

Pax

 

[thenobes]

do you agree with this point from the OP?

“God speaking from His Throne; Jesus preaching from the Mount, and ALL God breathed writings carry the same EQUAL authority.”

You are limiting God in these cases. God has a greater authority than only speaking and conveying information.

Lets look at definitions of authority. Of all that I’ve seen online, the most limited is the one that says authority is a source of trusted information. The most expansive, and which cannot be true of scriptures, is one that includes the power to enforce and to decide. Only God’s Church has any where near the level of authority given in this definition, as God and Jesus have. This is because the Church has been granted by God the power to bind and loose, which is to say, to decide and enforce.

peace
steve

 

[Larryk113]

I’ve used this very simplistic example before (and benhur laughed hysterically at me lol )

The happy bday song…you know it, if you have kids they probably know it, grandma knows it, her mom knew it, etc, etc. But you probably don’t have it stored in a safe somewhere. It’s just understood…it’s “living tradition”

I think any other church without the pedigree of the RCC that would make such claims about scripture originating from their tradition, therefore being equal to it, should be dismissed as cultish, making baseless claims.

Pax

I think the birthday song is a great way of explaining the Tradtion. It kinda puts it in a nutshell because everyone can relate.

 

[susanlo]

I think the birthday song is a great way of explaining the Tradtion. It kinda puts it in a nutshell because everyone can relate.

What are the origins of the Happy Birthday song? Has everyone always sang that “forever?” Or did it start over the centuries?
I realize that this isn’t actually a part of Catholic Tradition and just an analogy. I think I understand the point. But I worry that just because “everyone has always done that, or always believed this,” does that mean that it has been around since the time of the apostles and is exclusively right? You can have a valid birthday without the “Happy Birthday” song.