SS practicing Christian: What do you say Scripture is?

[jmcrae]

One is either born again or they are not. Is baptism always effectual, that is automatic “regeneration” ?

“Automatic” is the wrong word, but yes, Baptism works “ex operato” meaning that (assuming you were never baptized before) it washes away all of your sins and makes you a member of the Church, no matter what the surrounding circumstances may be.

From that point onward, you have a duty to be a faithful member of the Church, and you could certainly choose not to be, since your free will is never taken away from you.

Conversion itself is an ongoing process, and it would be very surprising if people didn’t have these deep, amazing experiences of God from time to time throughout their whole lives; it’s not just a one-time thing.

 

[rcwitness]

One is either born again or they are not. Is baptism always effectual, that is automatic “regeneration” ? That is why I like believe first, which I think can only happen if you are already regenerated, then get baptized. Don’t get me wrong all “methods” are not fail safe.

Hey bro,
I don’t think any Baptism is “automatic”. Faith/belief is necessary for the person with the capacity to reason/understand. Forgiveness and acceptance into the Church is promised

 

[benhur]

Hey ben,

I suppose jm should have expressed his disagreement with your post more kindly. I didn’t have a response because I didn’t know what you were trying to say about ML.

After this follow up, I think I have a better idea. My thought is that it gets into territory which we cannot know, right? Did he really confess his serious failings in the Sacrament? We’re his “feelings” justified, and who was compelling him to “feel” unjustified? I heard his confessor directed him to read Romans, or which ever book of Scripture.

I realize it’s a common opinion that he indeed struggled with uncertainty. And many of us do at times! And it was a compelling reason why I changed my signature to John’s wisdom on the matter.

In the end, we don’t know if it was a devil, men, or himself which caused his doubts. Neither do we always know our own.

Hi rc,

Thanks for replying graciously again.

For sure one can be attacked with doubts and we need to build each other up in Chrsit.

Yet there is a difference from that to someone really not being genuinely saved, and his doubts are from Godly conviction. They say the hardest to convert are the religious. When one is finally saved you know that you know that you know. The Holy Spirt bears witness to us, of this new life thru grace and faith. “Behold all things become new”. We love what we once hated, and hate what we once loved. We are to overcome with our testimony, that being what we now understand of what He did for us personally, because we met Him. We only are told to depart from the kingdom doors for not knowing Him. “Depart for I never knew you…”, both workers of iniquity and religious workers.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

“Automatic” is the wrong word, but yes, Baptism works “ex operato” meaning that (assuming you were never baptized before) it washes away all of your sins and makes you a member of the Church, no matter what the surrounding circumstances may be.

From that point onward, you have a duty to be a faithful member of the Church, and you could certainly choose not to be, since your free will is never taken away from you.

Conversion itself is an ongoing process, and it would be very surprising if people didn’t have these deep, amazing experiences of God from time to time throughout their whole lives; it’s not just a one-time thing.

Hi j,

Part of it the basis for the “conversion” for justification. We certainly read of baptism and regeneration together , but we also hear of, “we are not saved by works of righteousness but by grace”, and baptism is a righteous work, as was circumcision in OT. Indeed we are to be baptized/circumcised in the heart also.

Understand your point of salvation being on going , even conversion . Yet being born again, regenerated, born of the spirit , is a one time thing. As we are once born of the water in the womb , we are so once born from the wind of the Spirit .

 

[Abu]

benhur #482
When one is finally saved you know that you know that you know.

So long as one realises that **we are not “saved” in this life, but we are redeemed **– we have to listen to St Paul in that what is lacking is our co-operation. That is precisely why St Paul teaches: “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12). We don’t achieve salvation in one fell swoop by accepting Christ as our personal saviour as some are misled to feel. St Paul knows very well what he is teaching.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Although all Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching the Faith, it is almost impossible to interpret it without the guidance of the Church. Even Scripture itself calls the Church the “pillar and foundation of Truth.” So why will some Christians not listen to Scripture?

 

[benhur]

May I recommend to you that you read “The Faith of the Early Fathers” which is a collection of the writings of the leaders of the Early Church - their sermons, their essays, and their letters to one another and to the various Christian communities during the era between the death of the Apostle John and the beginning of the Middle Ages.

I think you will find it absolutely fascinating.

Ok .Thanks.

What I read is that Augustine and one other near his time (began with M , not sure of the name) alluded or laid groundwork for secondary source of revelation, that the Word of God was more that Writ (the move to a capital T to tradition) But for sure later on , before Trent it was in full swing, and finally was solidified and clarified at Trent.

When I said early church I only meant first few centuries, or before Augustine.

I only read patristic writings maybe up to 133 ad , and Augustine’s Confessions

Blessings

PS- Amazing what writings we have at out finger tips.

I was watching Johnny Carson the other night with Carl Sagan. As much as I am at odds with Sagan, he had a child like yet profound amazement of the ability to "hear " the words of someone who lived thousand of years ago, thru their writing. He talked of creatures who stored info in genetic code, then those animals who stored it in brain, and finally us , the only creature to store info "outside’’ of us.

 

[benhur]

Although all Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching the Faith, it is almost impossible to interpret it without the guidance of the Church. Even Scripture itself calls the Church the “pillar and foundation of Truth.” So why will some Christians not listen to Scripture?

Hi JB,

Actually, that was Luther’s question and request, strangely enough (or why go outside it or not reason from it).

SS is not at odds with what you say about the church and pillar etc…

Blessings

 

[benhur]

So long as one realises that **we are not “saved” in this life, but we are redeemed **– we have to listen to St Paul in that what is lacking is our co-operation. That is precisely why St Paul teaches: “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12). We don’t achieve salvation in one fell swoop by accepting Christ as our personal saviour as some are misled to feel. St Paul knows very well what he is teaching.

The walk yes, the birth no. You do not workout your birth, in fear and trembling, yet one better be fearful of not being born. The birth is His work . The walking is His work also and now with cooperation.

But yes, birth is His work not overriding our free will, but that is not same level as cooperating afterwards with the walk. That is, at first we have nothing to cooperate with save free will. After birth, we have our new man, a new us, with which to walk and grow in Christ. in fear and trembling, to run the course set before us (the works we were predestined to do, by grace).

Blessings

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Hi JB,

Actually, that was Luther’s question and request, strangely enough (or why go outside it or not reason from it).

SS is not at odds with what you say about the church and pillar etc…

Blessings

It’s actually pretty ironic that you say that when he came up with sola fide. No offense, just sayin’.

 

[jmcrae]

Ok .Thanks.

What I read is that Augustine and one other near his time (began with M , not sure of the name) alluded or laid groundwork for secondary source of revelation, that the Word of God was more that Writ (the move to a capital T to tradition) But for sure later on , before Trent it was in full swing, and finally was solidified and clarified at Trent.

When I said early church I only meant first few centuries, or before Augustine.

I only read patristic writings maybe up to 133 ad , and Augustine’s Confessions

Blessings

PS- Amazing what writings we have at out finger tips.

I was watching Johnny Carson the other night with Carl Sagan. As much as I am at odds with Sagan, he had a child like yet profound amazement of the ability to "hear " the words of someone who lived thousand of years ago, thru their writing. He talked of creatures who stored info in genetic code, then those animals who stored it in brain, and finally us , the only creature to store info "outside’’ of us.

I think you would really enjoy Volume I then.

 

[alwayswill]

Although all Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching the Faith, it is almost impossible to interpret it without the guidance of the Church. Even Scripture itself calls the Church the “pillar and foundation of Truth.” So why will some Christians not listen to Scripture?

Yes, I do listen to Scripture.
So I know that the actual verse is "“pillar and foundation of THE Truth”
The Church is to uphold and support THE truth;
but the Church is not THE truth

Yes, I do listen to Scripture, so I know that the truth is Jesus (I am the way, the truth, and the life)
Yes, I do listen to Scripture, so I know that the truth is God’s word (your word is truth)

The ekklesia (all believers) are to to uphold and support God’s word and Jesus.

I do that everyday

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Yes, I do listen to Scripture.
So I know that the actual verse is "“pillar and foundation of THE Truth”
The Church is to uphold and support THE truth;
but the Church is not THE truth

Yes, I do listen to Scripture, so I know that the truth is Jesus (I am the way, the truth, and the life)
Yes, I do listen to Scripture, so I know that the truth is God’s word (your word is truth)

The ekklesia (all believers) are to to uphold and support God’s word and Jesus.

I do that everyday

Hi, Always.

Foundations ARE A PART of houses, they aren’t separate from them. You can remove a bathroom from your house and it still stands, remove the foundation and the entire house comes crashing down.

We shouldn’t try to separate the Lord from His mystical bride, the Church as that is a metaphysical impossiblity.

Acts 9:4New International Version (NIV)

4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

In order to know that we have the correct bible., we have to trust in a source outside the bible. And that source had better be infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit. .

Pax

 

[rcwitness]

Yes, I do listen to Scripture.
So I know that the actual verse is "“pillar and foundation of THE Truth”
The Church is to uphold and support THE truth;
but the Church is not THE truth

Yes, the Truth is the Word. Scripture is Word of God put into human language. It is a communication from God about His message through men of the Church. The Church is not THE Truth. She is His Bride who keeps the Truth of the Son. She is brought into the light of the Truth.

Revelations 22

The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let him who hears say, “Come.” And let him who is thirsty come, let him who desires take the water of life without price.

Yes, I do listen to Scripture, so I know that the truth is Jesus (I am the way, the truth, and the life)
Yes, I do listen to Scripture, so I know that the truth is God’s word (your word is truth)

Amen

The ekklesia (all believers) are to to uphold and support God’s word and Jesus.

I do that everyday

Good. Sometimes i fail, and rely on my brothers. I don’t have understanding of ALL of Scripture. The Church has already upheld and defined Scripture for centuries before i was born!

I am not alone in this house. First Jesus opened the minds of His Apostles to understand Scripture.

Luke 24

Then he said to them, “These are my words which I spoke to you, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled.” Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures, and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead

Then he expressed that searching the Scriptures alone, is not enough.

John 5

You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

Then he even showed that understanding the Scriptures were not enough to “know Him”.

When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them. And their eyes were opened and they recognized him; and he vanished out of their sight. They said to each other, “Did not our hearts burn within us while he talked to us on the road, while he opened to us the scriptures?”… Then they told what had happened on the road, and how he was known to them in the breaking of the bread.

Then, they opened the Scriptures for others.

And the eunuch said to Philip, “About whom, pray, does the prophet say this, about himself or about some one else?” Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this scripture he told him the good news of Jesus.

Then Peter warned us that some things in all Scripture are hard to understand and will be twisted by some.

There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Hi JB,

Actually, that was Luther’s question and request, strangely enough (or why go outside it or not reason from it).

SS is not at odds with what you say about the church and pillar etc…

Blessings

Well like I said earlier, Luther went and formed his own congregation. So since Scripture says that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of Truth”, and Scripture cannot be disregarded, why did he go and fom his own congregation?

Most SS Christians go against Tradition because it’s not in the Bible. But just because it’s not explicitly mentioned in the Bible doesn’t mean it’s not true. Apparently most Fundamentalists have a Sadducee attitude.

I apologize if my quote was condescing or rude in advance.

 

[benhur]

It’s actually pretty ironic that you say that when he came up with sola fide. No offense, just sayin’.

Have no idea what you are saying .Sorry.

Blessings

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Have no idea what you are saying .Sorry.

Blessings

Check second post.

I don’t mean to sound rude or condescing.

 

[benhur]

Well like I said earlier, Luther went and formed his own congregation. So since Scripture says that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of Truth”, and Scripture cannot be disregarded, why did he go and fom his own congregation?

Most SS Christians go against Tradition because it’s not in the Bible. But just because it’s not explicitly mentioned in the Bible doesn’t mean it’s not true. Apparently most Fundamentalists have a Sadducee attitude.

I apologize if my quote was condescing or rude in advance.

Apology accepted. I do see now what you mean(had to reread our posts). You said two things, scripture and that scripture speaks of a church /pillar, and why deny the church of “scripture”. I said scripture is exactly what Luther wanted to reason from on whatever was being argued about, and he was denied reasoning from Writ. Hence I said ironic.

Not sure "sola fide’’ does away with "church’’ being pillar. His discussion was pillar of what ?, as in what is the truth on the matters being discussed by Him and church at that time.

As far as forming his own congregation , maybe, but it takes two to tango. What would you do if you are excommunicated yet you still are a brethren, a “Christian”, and still need fellowship, community, of like minded folk ,all excommunicated ? No He is guilty of having a different conviction than the status quo of the church.

As far as stuff not being in bible as in “Tradition” , well, it still can be true , but to say it is theopneustos , or equal with theopneustsos, is something else.

Guilty as charged as far as being strict on Writ and going against Oral (talmud) yet ironically they compromised with worldly culture/power and heavy on temple ritual.

Fundamentalists, as the name suggest , would desire rudimentary faith , based on apostolic tradition and their Writ. Pretty simple.

Blessings

 

[rcwitness]

Have no idea what you are saying .Sorry.

Blessings

Me neither…

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Me neither…

Second post.