SSA and Chastity

[Mark86]

The Church rightly calls the cross of same-sex attraction a “trial.” A cancer diagnosis is also a hard trial, but a person who is under the weight of cancer doesn’t see a movement in perspective just by being reminded about how “hard the trial” is, they seek answers for how to live happy lives with their condition and within the limitations that it presents. In fact, that is often what drives them. These very questions are often not just hard to answer, but often refuse to be answered, both by the world and by the teachings of the Church. Let me explain what I mean. Some things do seem to be glossed over. Even St. Paul said “Now for virgins I have no commandment from the Lord…” (1 Cor 7:25) That silence has echoed down through the centuries it seems.

We do know a few things from the Catechism… that all people are called to chastity, which is the “full integration of sexuality within the human person” and that sexuality “affects all aspects of the human person.” We also know that the ONLY end for this thing called “sexuality” is the procreation and unity of spouses. In an ideal world where human beings only ever felt sexual longings for opposite-sex spouses post marriage, this wouldn’t cause much of a problem for people, but obviously scripture and the Church tell us this is not an ideal world. People do things like “desire sex” regardless of whether they are married, “desire people” who they are not married to, desire that which closes the procreative and/or unitive ends of sexuality…etc., and so there’s all kinds of ways where people’s sexuality falls short of the angelic ideal.

Put these tree facts together in the case of homosexuals, and the most logical outcome would be something like the following:

1. Homosexuals have sexual desire like all human beings, and all human beings are then called to chastity…
2. What is chastity but the full integration of sexuality within the human person…
3. How does one “fully integrate” sexuality when its ONLY end is in the marital union than to contract the marital union and therefore “fully integrate it”…
4. Therefore, in order for homosexuals to practice a fully integrated sexuality (“chastity”), they must somehow conform it to the ONLY end to which it exists, which is in the marital union (one man, one woman).

Therefore, it would seem most homosexuals are called to natural marriage.

The only way it could be otherwise is if the homosexual in question is “an exception to the norm” (even among homosexuals) and is given special grace by God to “renounce marriage for the sake of the Kingdom” and practice outright celibacy. We’re told from the same Catechism that Celibacy is only proper when it is voluntarily submitted to and God has given the person the grace to practice it for the sake of the Kingdom. Very few get this grace, homosexual or otherwise. It is therefore obvious that unless a homosexual has a special calling from God and a grace to perform it, most homosexuals, just like most heterosexuals, are called to the marriage vocation. However, that is not easy done for a homosexual, and nor is it necessarily good for their potential spouse if their disordered sexuality causes them to “deprive” their spouse.

I can therefore see why the Church is hesitant to suggest “marriage” as the solution to the problem of homosexuality, for the same reason that marriage isn’t a solution to any kind of sexual desire, ordered or disordered. I can also see why the Church is hesitant to outright command “celibacy” as well, considering it’s a special breed who can actually find happiness in the celibate life. In the case of homosexuals then, let’s be honest, the Church plays the “we can’t make a determination here” card in order to avoid having to come down one way or the other on this issue, due to warranted concerns about the problems that homosexuality presents to ANY particular vocation… which is good for them, but not very good for homosexual persons who are tasked with trying to “figure it out for themselves.”

How does one “fully integrate” one’s sexuality when it can’t express itself in the natural way (marriage), nor necessarily always in the supernatural way (celibacy)? Therefore how does such a person practice chastity? Such a life where chastity is unattainable under natural or even supernatural means seems to be a very despairing thing, especially when the person desires to be chaste and can’t fully integrate their sexuality within themselves due to these dilemmas.

I’m genuinely seeking to understand. I’m not seeking to poke holes in Church teaching to excuse what is sinful. I’m just very in need of “answers.”

 

[Linusthe2nd]

The Church rightly calls the cross of same-sex attraction a “trial.” A cancer diagnosis is also a hard trial, but a person who is under the weight of cancer doesn’t see a movement in perspective just by being reminded about how “hard the trial” is, they seek answers for how to live happy lives with their condition and within the limitations that it presents. In fact, that is often what drives them. These very questions are often not just hard to answer, but often refuse to be answered, both by the world and by the teachings of the Church. Let me explain what I mean. Some things do seem to be glossed over. Even St. Paul said “Now for virgins I have no commandment from the Lord…” (1 Cor 7:25) That silence has echoed down through the centuries it seems…[snip]…

.

You have erroneously seen a dilemma where there is none. Certainly the Celibate life is a special vocation, so is Marriage. To the one suffering from unnatural homosexual tendencies these vocations seem closed. One could say that they have been indirectly called to the single state, one in which they must practice Chastity. But you must remember that there may will be times, most certainly will be, married people must also practice the the chastity of the single person, for one’s spouce will certainly die some day, and there will be many circumstances in their lives when the marriage bed may be deprived ( when one’s spouce is ill or injured, of pregnant). It is also true that between adolescence until we either marry or enter the Priesthood or the Religious life, there are many years when chastity must be practiced. And remember this, married people must practice chastity just like single people in regared to persons who are not their spouce. Yes, life is a trail for everyone and it will be right to the end.

Linus2nd
LInus2nd

 

[esieffe]

You sir are a brilliant writer. I suspect you are no stranger to the pen. To the point. I found one very weak “loophole” in your essay which I wold like to refer to:

“Therefore how does such a person practice chastity? Such a life where chastity is unattainable under natural or even supernatural means seems to be a very despairing thing, especially when the person desires to be chaste and can’t fully integrate their sexuality within themselves due to these dilemmas.”

I would submit that is how much of God’s work gets done around here. “Supernatural” means, for a lack of a better word.

Matthew 8:25-26… And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish. And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith.

Are miracles a non existent occurrence outside the Gospel? Certainly not! We hear of things all the time attributed to the Grace of God, even here in the forums. Can they all be written off? Maybe a few, but others defy all exploitation. I would say as one who has experienced the Grace of God that direct intervention in our lives is entirely possible. Who has not begged the Lord or the queen of Heaven to have a vice removed or a recovery of a sick loved one brought about? Surely chastity, a state of Grace valued so highly in Catholicism by priests, orders, and even of course laity cannot be so quickly dismissed as being impossible. To do so would be to question the integrity of the religious back to the very founding of the church! Just food for thought!

 

[Mark86]

You have erroneously seen a dilemma where there is none. Certainly the Celibate life is a special vocation, so is Marriage. To the one suffering from unnatural homosexual tendencies these vocations seem closed. One could say that they have been indirectly called to the single state, one in which they must practice Chastity.

How does one carry out a “fully integrated” sexuality in the single state? Being “perpetually single” means you’re not married, nor is there much likelihood for marriage, so any use of your sexuality is bound to be sinful and therefore not “fully integrated.” But then you can’t just “not use” your sexuality if it is (as the Church teaches), so integral to your humanity as to “affect all aspects” of it (CCC 2332). So you enter into a situation where you can neither “use” nor “not use” your sexuality. Using it becomes sinful, and trying to bury it becomes inhuman. So the question is, how does this work?

And yes, I admit that it’s not just homosexuals who fall into this dilemma. How does it work for anyone in a similar position? I recognize that the same “can” apply to people in the marriage vocation as well in various circumstances, but in those cases (before marriage), they have the consolation of the possibility of marriage (and thus, can order their desires and towards that “goal”), during marriage they have the consolation that their desires are at least ordered toward the goal of maintaining the marriage, and after marriage (should something intervene), they have the consolation that their current desires had their fulfillment in the marriage sacrament at one time. The same-sex attracted “single” person does not have the consolation that their desires are ordered toward the goal of marriage, does not have the consolation of keeping up a marriage, nor the consolation of at least having had the blessing of marriage in the past. Like those called to marriage who must practice chastity, they have desires that they have to put on the back-burner for the sake of purity… but, unlike those called to marriage, there’s no goal (like marriage) to invest those desires towards that makes purity possible.

If it’s true that the path of chastity is not merely about “abstinence,” as in, it’s not merely about what to “avoid” but what to “live for” … what does a same-sex attracted person “live for” ? We certainly know what they are to avoid, namely, all things connected to their sexuality (as in, that thing that “affects ALL aspects of their humanity”)… but then the question becomes, what to live for? There’s got to be more to life than going to confession every week to confess to being a homosexual. That’s what I’m wondering. What more is there to the SSA Catholic life?

How does one practice a fully integrated sexuality when the very act of practicing it is sinful and trying to “do away with it” is an inhuman suppression of the gift?

Yes, life is a trail for everyone and it will be right to the end.

Yes, it’s a trial for everyone, but the reality is, the people in the marriage vocation have the consolation of being married or being called to marriage or having had the blessing of marriage to console them. What does the gay person have to console them other than to suffer with their unfulfilled desires?

Does anyone see what I’m saying?

Are miracles a non existent occurrence outside the Gospel?

I understand what you’re saying and I agree with it, that miracles do happen and that lives can always be transformed as a consequence. But are you suggesting that the only solution to this problem for gay people is that they pray for a miracle to make them straight? Certainly it can happen, but is it necessary that it does? What do they do if, try as they might, they never become straight? Then how do they practice a “fully integrated” sexuality within their human person, and yet never express their sexuality and yet never try to repress it either?

If I can reiterate this point again… there are three options to dealing with the state of being SSA:

1. Repress it. (Church doesn’t recommend this)
2. Fake it and try to get married. (Church doesn’t recommend this)
3. Wait for a miracle? (and until one happens, suffer in inchastity…)

I mean, we’re all called to suffer for the sake of the Kingdom, that I get. But at some point a human being needs some consolation that there is meaning in their suffering, or that they are not suffering in vain… suffering merely to avoid hell, but towards something greater than themselves. Suffering without meaning is despair. Suffering without meaning is hell. Suffering can only lose its despair when it is joined with some kind of meaning in life. Marriage provides “meaning” to people who are suffering in their marriages. The Priesthood provides “meaning” to people who are suffering in their ordained life. What gay people want is meaning to animate their suffering, something they don’t currently have when all is “closed off” to them. What they want is to have a purpose beyond just suffering. That purpose in life is what makes the “suffering” bearable. Do you understand?

Married people suffer, yes, but they do so within the context of something very special and edifying called “marriage” that gives meaning to their suffering. What gives meaning to a homosexual’s suffering? What is their goal supposed to be in this life (for others)? What is their desire to love and be loved go towards?

Questions… questions.

Answers would be appreciated.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

You sir are a brilliant writer. I suspect you are no stranger to the pen. To the point. I found one very weak “loophole” in your essay which I wold like to refer to:

“Therefore how does such a person practice chastity? Such a life where chastity is unattainable under natural or even supernatural means seems to be a very despairing thing, especially when the person desires to be chaste and can’t fully integrate their sexuality within themselves due to these dilemmas.”

I would submit that is how much of God’s work gets done around here. “Supernatural” means, for a lack of a better word.

Matthew 8:25-26… And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish. And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith.

Are miracles a non existent occurrence outside the Gospel? Certainly not! We hear of things all the time attributed to the Grace of God, even here in the forums. Can they all be written off? Maybe a few, but others defy all exploitation. I would say as one who has experienced the Grace of God that direct intervention in our lives is entirely possible. Who has not begged the Lord or the queen of Heaven to have a vice removed or a recovery of a sick loved one brought about? Surely chastity, a state of Grace valued so highly in Catholicism by priests, orders, and even of course laity cannot be so quickly dismissed as being impossible. To do so would be to question the integrity of the religious back to the very founding of the church! Just food for thought!

Yes, only by grace can any of us rise to the level of virtue in the moral life and chastity is where we need more help than in other areas. It is a life long battle, as the Saints have reminded us.

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

How does one carry out a “fully integrated” sexuality in the single state? Being “perpetually single” means you’re not married, nor is there much likelihood for marriage, so any use of your sexuality is bound to be sinful and therefore not “fully integrated.” But then you can’t just “not use” your sexuality if it is (as the Church teaches), so integral to your humanity as to “affect all aspects” of it (CCC 2332). So you enter into a situation where you can neither “use” nor “not use” your sexuality. Using it becomes sinful, and trying to bury it becomes inhuman. So the question is, how does this work?

And yes, I admit that it’s not just homosexuals who fall into this dilemma. How does it work for anyone in a similar position? I recognize that the same “can” apply to people in the marriage vocation as well in various circumstances, but in those cases (before marriage), they have the consolation of the possibility of marriage (and thus, can order their desires and towards that “goal”), during marriage they have the consolation that their desires are at least ordered toward the goal of maintaining the marriage, and after marriage (should something intervene), they have the consolation that their current desires had their fulfillment in the marriage sacrament at one time. The same-sex attracted “single” person does not have the consolation that their desires are ordered toward the goal of marriage, does not have the consolation of keeping up a marriage, nor the consolation of at least having had the blessing of marriage in the past. Like those called to marriage who must practice chastity, they have desires that they have to put on the back-burner for the sake of purity… but, unlike those called to marriage, there’s no goal (like marriage) to invest those desires towards that makes purity possible.

If it’s true that the path of chastity is not merely about “abstinence,” as in, it’s not merely about what to “avoid” but what to “live for” … what does a same-sex attracted person “live for” ? We certainly know what they are to avoid, namely, all things connected to their sexuality (as in, that thing that “affects ALL aspects of their humanity”)… but then the question becomes, what to live for? There’s got to be more to life than going to confession every week to confess to being a homosexual. That’s what I’m wondering. What more is there to the SSA Catholic life?

How does one practice a fully integrated sexuality when the very act of practicing it is sinful and trying to “do away with it” is an inhuman suppression of the gift?

Yes, it’s a trial for everyone, but the reality is, the people in the marriage vocation have the consolation of being married or being called to marriage or having had the blessing of marriage to console them. What does the gay person have to console them other than to suffer with their unfulfilled desires?

Does anyone see what I’m saying?

I understand what you’re saying and I agree with it, that miracles do happen and that lives can always be transformed as a consequence. But are you suggesting that the only solution to this problem for gay people is that they pray for a miracle to make them straight? Certainly it can happen, but is it necessary that it does? What do they do if, try as they might, they never become straight? Then how do they practice a “fully integrated” sexuality within their human person, and yet never express their sexuality and yet never try to repress it either?

If I can reiterate this point again… there are three options to dealing with the state of being SSA:

1. Repress it. (Church doesn’t recommend this)
2. Fake it and try to get married. (Church doesn’t recommend this)
3. Wait for a miracle? (and until one happens, suffer in inchastity…)

I mean, we’re all called to suffer for the sake of the Kingdom, that I get. But at some point a human being needs some consolation that there is meaning in their suffering, or that they are not suffering in vain… suffering merely to avoid hell, but towards something greater than themselves. Suffering without meaning is despair. Suffering without meaning is hell. Suffering can only lose its despair when it is joined with some kind of meaning in life. Marriage provides “meaning” to people who are suffering in their marriages. The Priesthood provides “meaning” to people who are suffering in their ordained life. What gay people want is meaning to animate their suffering, something they don’t currently have when all is “closed off” to them. What they want is to have a purpose beyond just suffering. That purpose in life is what makes the “suffering” bearable. Do you understand?

Married people suffer, yes, but they do so within the context of something very special and edifying called “marriage” that gives meaning to their suffering. What gives meaning to a homosexual’s suffering? What is their goal supposed to be in this life (for others)? What is their desire to love and be loved go towards?

Questions… questions.

Answers would be appreciated.

Your view is far too gloomy. These people can find meaning in their lives by developing a vibrant spiritual life and learning to serve others and the Church. They need to get " outside of themselves. "

Linus2nd

 

[Bookcat]

In a similar way that a person who is single who cannot get married for one reason or another.

Yes such is a cross for each. Differing for each. But both can grow in great holiness.

 

[Sarcelle]

Your view is far too gloomy. These people can find meaning in their lives by developing a vibrant spiritual life and learning to serve others and the Church. They need to get " outside of themselves. "

Linus2nd

What a hard hearted response to say to someone suffering from loneliness to “get over themselves”.

Their suffering is real. They need answers.

 

[Mark86]

Your view is far too gloomy. These people can find meaning in their lives by developing a vibrant spiritual life and learning to serve others and the Church. They need to get " outside of themselves. "

Basically, the Christian suffering with SSA wants to know how to “cultivate the life of chastity according to their state in life” (CCC 2438). It’s not so much a question of whether it’s possible, because we all know that all things are possible with God. The question is, much like our Blessed Mother asked the angel, “how will this be?” (Luke 1:34). She did not doubt whether God could do what he promised in her life, she merely asked how God was going to bring it about when the situation for her was that she hadn’t had relations yet. That’s the kind of question that I and many people have of God for one reason or another. How will God bring about a “fully integrated” sexuality for the homosexual person? Will it be through marriage, through a vocation to the priesthood, through religious life, through some kind of “single” existence…? That’s the question. Which is it?

“Ask and you shall receive. Seek and you shall find.” (Matthew 7:7)

Well, I’m asking and seeking, and I won’t stop until God does something to help me understand.

To put it another way, it’s true that the Catechism teaches that all are “called to chastity.” It’s a universal vocation regardless of your “state” in life, married, single, celibate…etc, that somehow we learn how to “integrate” our sexual desires into our lives in a way that doesn’t repress them, but also doesn’t merely indulge them. That much I understand… but what I’m asking is the “how will this be?” question. How do you do it? I’ve tried repressing the desires and it doesn’t work. I’ve certainly indulged the desires and that doesn’t work either. So how to “integrate” them is the question. How to do what the Catechism merely says we “should do,” that’s the question. I get that we “should” do it… the question is how?

Should I seek marriage? Should I strive for celibacy? Which one?

One could pray a hundred rosaries a day and still have sexual desires that need dealing with. I know. There’s no point of our earthly existence where we will be “free” from these desires, nor should we aspire to be. But at the same time, we can’t indulge them in any way, so I’m just struggling to understand how to deal with them in a holy way WHEN “marriage” is not an option for them. What is God doing there? Why does God permit a person to suffer with desires for intimacy and connection and yet forbid the expression and the repression of such? What is God specifically calling such a person to do with them? It doesn’t have to just be about homosexual desires, but for anyone who is under a similar cross… what is the “Catholic Answer” for this? What’s God’s purpose for this struggle?

Let me simplify what I’m asking once again… because I don’t know if I’m being clear.

All people are called to chastity, yes. But most people are called to things beyond just chastity… they’re called to “marriage” or “celibacy” ALONG WITH the “chastity.” These goals, these vocations, these life-pursuits help the person in being chaste-minded. What else are people with SSA “called to” ALONG WITH the universal call to chastity? Are they called to marriage? Are they called to celibacy?

I’ve searched the Catechism and it doesn’t specify.

What’s the answer?

 

[bobballen_18]

(Part 1 of 2)

How does one carry out a “fully integrated” sexuality in the single state? Being “perpetually single” means you’re not married, nor is there much likelihood for marriage, so any use of your sexuality is bound to be sinful and therefore not “fully integrated.” But then you can’t just “not use” your sexuality if it is (as the Church teaches), so integral to your humanity as to “affect all aspects” of it (CCC 2332). So you enter into a situation where you can neither “use” nor “not use” your sexuality. Using it becomes sinful, and trying to bury it becomes inhuman. So the question is, how does this work?

Maybe I’m wrong here, but I wouldn’t say that it is about “using” or “not using” our sexuality. It would be more about living in accord with your sexuality, and acknowledging our masculinity/femininity. One does not have to “use” one’s sexual organs in order to be masculine or feminine.

…
If it’s true that the path of chastity is not merely about “abstinence,” as in, it’s not merely about what to “avoid” but what to “live for” … what does a same-sex attracted person “live for” ? We certainly know what they are to avoid, namely, all things connected to their sexuality (as in, that thing that “affects ALL aspects of their humanity”)… but then the question becomes, what to live for? There’s got to be more to life than going to confession every week to confess to being a homosexual. That’s what I’m wondering. What more is there to the SSA Catholic life?

Wow. I can understand that one is pained by the prospect of maybe never having a spouse and family. But even in the context, which I understand can be hard, I do NOT understand how it is not obvious that one can live for so much as a single person. Not that I’m the perfect model for this, because even as one who has SSA and is single, I have not perfected this - it’s still a work in progress: get out and socialize! Be involved in your parish! If your parish life is dead, switch parishes or, if you have the skills/drive required, start up things yourself! Even in my limited time of trying to do this myself, I have learned that even though there’s that distinctive feeling that I am so different than everyone else, they don’t actually not care about you or think you’re all that different. Many people are more accepting that you might think. Live your life centered around Christ and being a good example to every single person you encounter during the day. Even if you don’t feel like you are succeeding, you can never underestimate the good that you are doing just by living a Christ-centered life and being a good example, and giving yourself over to the service of the Church. I’m sorry if I sound harsh, but, again, as a SSA male who is single, I 100% disagree that life is not worth living simply because I do not have a wife/kids. Maybe it’s harder, but guess what, we will never know that for sure unless we ever do get married. Don’t assume things. If you are stuck in this mindset, please, talk to a priest or (Catholic) professional counselor to help you with this. Also, God never said everyone suffers equally - I don’t think it’s against Catholic teaching to assert that some suffer more than others. I know this is hard to stomach, but I have heard it said that the more one suffers, the more God loves them! Because if they persevere, God will reward them all the more in Heaven!

 

[bobballen_18]

(Part 2 of 2)

If I can reiterate this point again… there are three options to dealing with the state of being SSA:

1. Repress it. (Church doesn’t recommend this)
2. Fake it and try to get married. (Church doesn’t recommend this)
3. Wait for a miracle? (and until one happens, suffer in inchastity…)

Could you clarify something for me: When you speak of a “homosexual” person or one who “experiences SSA”, do you mean exclusively experiencing SSA (i.e., no attraction or extremely rare attraction for the opposite sex)? With how I am reading your posts, this must be what you mean. Because your thoughts would just simply not be true for all who experience even a large amount of SSA - I am pretty sure a lot of people who experience SSA also experience opposite-sex attraction (OSA), or, with the correct help, could develop more OSA.

The reason I say this, is because I think there is a fourth option to “dealing with SSA” as you outline above, or at least as an add-on to the third option:

3/4. Receive therapy/counseling regarding SSA and interactions with people (especially of the same sex).

Yes, miracles happen, but there’s nothing stopping those with SSA who may be “waiting for a miracle” from at the same time actually DOING something trying to understand why they experience those desires and seeing if they can receive help in dealing with those desires. I am quite sure there is help out there. I can’t say for sure, because I don’t have any statistics in front of me or anything, but anyone who experiences SSA does for a reason. So is it not possible to find out these reasons, acknowledge them, and attempt to rectify the situation? I’m not saying one will always be able to completely resolve their SSA, but as far as I know, such help exists and is at least to some degree effective.

Anyway, all of that is a long way of leading up to and elaborating on your third option again:

3/4. Don’t hide it, and get married (to the opposite sex) anyway!

I.e., a SSA male is, obviously, still a male, and is as free to marry a woman as any other man, provided his vocation is to marriage, and provided he is psychologically able to handle it (and vice versa for women). Granted, I’m not saying that every single person with SSA is called to get married (to the opposite sex, obviously), but I’m positive that some are. I mean, it probably used to happen all the time SSA people, and I’m sure it didn’t fail every time. Most likely, someone with SSA who desires marriage should disclose this struggle with the potential spouse, and if she is fine with it and the relationship does not adversely suffer because of it, then those with SSA are more than welcome to get married. Heck, maybe this is just me speaking from personal experience, but I think a lot of SSA men at least get along very well with women, better than with men.

Now, of course, that is just my opinion (and once again, coming from someone with SSA)…I’d be interested in seeing others’ on it.

I mean, we’re all called to suffer for the sake of the Kingdom, that I get. But at some point a human being needs some consolation that there is meaning in their suffering, or that they are not suffering in vain… suffering merely to avoid hell, but towards something greater than themselves. Suffering without meaning is despair. Suffering without meaning is hell. Suffering can only lose its despair when it is joined with some kind of meaning in life. Marriage provides “meaning” to people who are suffering in their marriages. The Priesthood provides “meaning” to people who are suffering in their ordained life. What gay people want is meaning to animate their suffering, something they don’t currently have when all is “closed off” to them. What they want is to have a purpose beyond just suffering. That purpose in life is what makes the “suffering” bearable. Do you understand?
…

I guess I sort of already shared my views on this (suffering) above. Maybe yes, I do understand - I understand that you feel you don’t have a purpose in life. So, find one. Yes, I know, easier said than done. I’m working on it too, my friend. You’re not alone. Just know that one does NOT need a wife and family, or even a vocation to priesthood or religious life, in order to have a purpose in life. I honestly understand how it feels to think that I might never have a wife and family! But do you really think God wants us to mope around our whole lives and be sad about that? I rather think He wants instead to draw us closer to Him in other ways. It’s up to us (and hopefully a spiritual director) to figure out what those ways are! Life is certainly an adventure, huh!? I think I remember you from a previous post, but I don’t remember how old you are. Maybe it’s only because I’m still a young 'un (23) but I have a lot of hope, no matter my struggles and failures, that all will be right someday, whether in this world in the next. It’s not for me to mope around, although I’ve been tempted that direction many times. How is that being a good example to others, especially to our non-Christian brethren?

I personally am about to seek professional (Catholic) help in this matter. If you have not yourself, why don’t you give it a try? My view on it is, I don’t have anything to lose at all - except maybe a little pride, of which I think all people could afford to lose! I think one of the problems with humanity today in general is that we are less personal with each other. No, I don’t think we should go around being completely vulnerable to every person we meet, but I think that maybe being vulnerable to (some) others is the only way in which we can get out of ourselves and grow. I’m scared as heck to do this, but I’m trying to man up and take action - just sitting around and doing nothing about it is probably not going to work for me!

Wow, I can’t believe I just wrote that much.

 

[bobballen_18]

What a hard hearted response to say to someone suffering from loneliness to “get over themselves”.

Their suffering is real. They need answers.

I don’t think saying “get over yourself” is the same thing as saying “get out of yourself”. At least, I don’t interpret it that way.

I just alluded to this, I guess, in my long post - yes, the suffering is real, so maybe we should do something about it. The solution is not to brood all day about it by ourselves. I suppose that coming and asking questions anonymously online is a start, but especially with loneliness, that can only go so far. If one is lonely, obviously the solution is to “get outside of yourself”. Whether that is just interacting with people in general more, or actively seeking professional help, the general solution is to “get outside of yourself”. I think that, perhaps, is all Linusthe2nd meant, and he can correct me if I am wrong.

 

[frumacat]

Basically, the Christian suffering with SSA wants to know how to “cultivate the life of chastity according to their state in life” (CCC 2438). It’s not so much a question of whether it’s possible, because we all know that all things are possible with God. The question is, much like our Blessed Mother asked the angel, “how will this be?” (Luke 1:34). She did not doubt whether God could do what he promised in her life, she merely asked how God was going to bring it about when the situation for her was that she hadn’t had relations yet. That’s the kind of question that I and many people have of God for one reason or another. How will God bring about a “fully integrated” sexuality for the homosexual person?

I’m still trying to figure that out for myself. Celibacy seems to be the choice that many priests that are homosexuals have undertaken. But what if a gay person isn’t called to the priesthood? Surely, a vocation has to be formed by a more solid reason than this.

But at the same time, we can’t indulge them in any way, so I’m just struggling to understand how to deal with them in a holy way WHEN “marriage” is not an option for them. What is God doing there? Why does God permit a person to suffer with desires for intimacy and connection and yet forbid the expression and the repression of such? What is God specifically calling such a person to do with them?

I ask that myself all the time.

 

[Rosebud77]

When did what you call sexual fulfilment become the be all and end all and centre of life? That idea to me is the real disordered thought. That unless you are sexually active you are in some way deprived? Or repressed? So to be celibate for whatever reason is a hardship, a trial? That is surely out of all proportion. I am celibate, life long, not for any reason initially except that it jut never happened else. It was and is never a burden or a trial. But that was a different generation and seemingly a different attitude. When folk talk as you do I ask them, do I look repressed? And they stop in their tracks as I am obviously deeply fulfilled and happy. And I tell folk that celibacy is not really about the triviality called sex but about the freedom to love all. I see contemporaries ( I am over 70) trying to cope with ailing spouses, with widowhood, with family troubles. Getting bogged down. We who cleave to celibacy are freer to serve Jesus. So yes to getting outside of yourself and using celibacy to give more and more. To reduce sex to its real size… tiny!

 

[Mark86]

One does not have to “use” one’s sexual organs in order to be masculine or feminine.

I should say first that I deeply appreciate the time and thought you put into this and I would definitely appreciate any further insights that people may have on this issue, not just for myself but for anyone who may find this thread and be asking the same questions.

What does it mean to be masculine or feminine? How does simply being male satisfy the longing of my heart for intimacy and connection with another or replace that desire? I wake up every day and I’m automatically male… but I don’t wake up every day and feel “fully integrated” about my sexuality. I feel like my sexuality is something I’m running away from as I’m trying to live my life apart from it in every respect… or to live as if I didn’t have sexual desires. That’s not “fully integrated” sexuality.

Wow. I can understand that one is pained by the prospect of maybe never having a spouse and family. But even in the context, which I understand can be hard, I do NOT understand how it is not obvious that one can live for so much as a single person.

Yes, but how does that “living for so much else” satisfy the deep need of intimacy that married people have satisfied in their marital relationship? For example, “joining a club” is not the same as committing your life to a spouse. As a single person, I could definitely go out and join a club, volunteer, and commit myself to my work… and all these things I do, and that’s wonderful. But at the same time, I don’t have anyone to come home to. People expect me here and there, but who do I have to expect in return? And so my need to be “loved back” turns into evil self love. I understand that “in giving we receive,” but even St. John Paul II, writing on the nature of purpose of erotic love, remarked that “the soul can not simply give and give…” Think about it this way, Christ said “let the man who has two tunics give to the man who has none.” He did not say “let the man who only has one tunic give to the one who has none.” Why? Because if the man with only one tunic gives up his only tunic, he has no more that he CAN “give” away. Then what is he to make of the command to “give”? I’m speaking generally here… it’s just a fact that if you “give and give and give” …eventually you’re going to need to have something given to you in return, not simply to bless you, but simply because you can’t continue to keep the command to “give” if you have nothing left to give. Thus, the “erotic” love is meant for the unity of spouses as an instrument of sacramental grace for the marriage, that they receive the erotic in return for the agape.

What therefore does the single person “receive” in return for his giving and giving? Note, I’m not talking about “receive” in the sense of getting back what we think we’re “entitled to” or in the sense of “reward” or “repayment.” What I’m talking about is “receiving” in the sense of “you can’t give what you don’t have.” What I find is that after a long day of giving myself in my very humbling job to the clients that I serve, after giving up my life and all of myself into these works, I come home and have no one to replenish me that I may continue to give… I literally end up with nothing left to give of myself to anyone, and so I end up neglecting myself and falling into despair.

Please understand what I’m saying. I’m not saying I need affection in order to be happy. I’m saying I need that deep affection from another in order to be able to give it away to others… which is what I want to do.

Granted, I’m not saying that every single person with SSA is called to get married (to the opposite sex, obviously), but I’m positive that some are.

I tend to be like this… the Church teaches definitively that the only end to human sexuality (ordered or disordered) is to the unity and procreation of spouses, and so I ask, why can’t the Church just as definitively tell me what to do with my life? I sit back and say “Church, tell me what to do.” They can’t though. All they can do is tell me definitively what not to do. My father instilled in me a kind of “don’t make a move unless I tell you to” sense of discipline, and so I tend to expect God and the Church to be the same way, especially when they are like that for some things and not for others. I don’t like to be told definitively what not to do and then be “left hanging” when it comes to what TO do with my life. That’s the source of my frustration.

Just know that one does NOT need a wife and family, or even a vocation to priesthood or religious life, in order to have a purpose in life.

It’s just that’s what the Church seems to be teaching half the time. I don’t see them teaching much for what single people are called to do. The Church can tell a married person “be faithful to your spouse.” The Church can tell a priest “be faithful to your bishop.” The Church can tell a religious “be faithful to your order.” But when it comes to the single person, the Church basically says “um… be faithful to… God… somehow. You figure it out.” I didn’t join the Church to “figure it out for myself.” I joined the Church to follow “the clear teaching of Christ.” If I wanted to “figure it out for myself” I wouldn’t have joined up.

 

[Mark86]

I personally am about to seek professional (Catholic) help in this matter. If you have not yourself, why don’t you give it a try?

I began seeing a Catholic spiritual director, so hopefully I’ll begin to start understanding these things in a more personal way. My problem is all the Church teachings and spiritual writings are directed at the general population, and what I need is personal instruction… someone who knows me, knows my situation, knows my talents, knows my desires, and can therefore help me understand how the “general principles” can be lived out in my own life, according to what my talents are, according to what my situation is.

When did what you call sexual fulfilment become the be all and end all and centre of life? That idea to me is the real disordered thought.

Because, according to my reading and understanding of the catechism, “sexual fulfillment” is another way of saying “the full integration of sexuality within the human person.” That is what the Church calls the virtue of “chastity” after all. Sexual fulfillment does not come by sexual activity, that I understand, but a person is still called to be “sexually fulfilled” in the sense of being able to manage “the powers of life and love within them.” This is very important. It is not a “tiny” matter… which is why the Church rightly says that sexuality “affects ALL aspects of the human person in the unity of his body and soul…” and along with marital covenants, also affects “the aptitude for forming bonds of communion with others” (CCC 2332).

All this is not a “tiny” thing.

Based on the Church’s teaching, this is where it leads me:

1. All humans have “sexuality,” and “all are called to chastity”… (okay, fine, so what is chastity then?)…
2. Chastity is the “full integration of sexuality within the human person…” (okay, so what does that entail?)…
3. The “full integration of sexuality within the human person” happens when we live in accord with God’s plan for it… (okay, so what is God’s plan for it?)…
4. God’s plan for human sexuality finds its end only in the marital union of man and woman and procreation of children. (okay, so does that mean I should get married?)

If not, then, according to the Church’s teaching, I can’t “live God’s plan” for my sexuality (since “marriage” is the ONLY end for it, according to the Church)… and if I can’t live God’s plan for it, then I can’t be fully integrated in it, and if I can’t be fully integrated in it, then I can’t be chaste…

I’m not saying this is the case. I don’t want this to be the case. I want to be chaste. How to do it though when I may not be able to get married or be vowed celibate?

It was and is never a burden or a trial.

God bless you that you haven’t been burdened with sexual addiction like I have!

 

[Mark86]

Can anyone answer these dilemmas I’m having?

 

[Mummsie]

Mark, So glad to hear you have gotten a Spiritual Director. I’m sure he can help you to find your answers. I understand you want to follow God’s will. I’m also gathering that your issue seems to be taking over a tremendous amount of your thoughts and energies. (If I’m wrong, I apologize for my misinterpretation). Perhaps you might be able to step away from the issue for a little bit. I have found myself caught up in my own issues and then I can no longer see anything clearly and lose my perspective on what’s really important.

I’m praying for fruitful meetings with your Spiritual Director.

God bless you.

 

[Mark86]

Mark, So glad to hear you have gotten a Spiritual Director. I’m sure he can help you to find your answers. I understand you want to follow God’s will. I’m also gathering that your issue seems to be taking over a tremendous amount of your thoughts and energies. (If I’m wrong, I apologize for my misinterpretation). Perhaps you might be able to step away from the issue for a little bit. I have found myself caught up in my own issues and then I can no longer see anything clearly and lose my perspective on what’s really important.

I’m praying for fruitful meetings with your Spiritual Director.

God bless you.

Thank you for your response and prayers. Really.

I think I’m starting to realize that I may never find the answers to these questions…

All I’m trying to do is understand Church teaching. Should I get married or not? Simple question. I need answers. I can’t just keep asking into the void. I joined the Church so that I could be with others who could help me on this journey. I can’t discern this for myself, and I need help in understanding what God is calling me to do. I’ve been asking this simple question for years. Nobody can help me though.

 

[newcalling]

Thank you for your response and prayers. Really.

I think I’m starting to realize that I may never find the answers to these questions…

All I’m trying to do is understand Church teaching. Should I get married or not? Simple question. I need answers. I can’t just keep asking into the void. I joined the Church so that I could be with others who could help me on this journey. I can’t discern this for myself, and I need help in understanding what God is calling me to do. I’ve been asking this simple question for years. Nobody can help me though.

I’ve been silently following this thread. I wish that I had the answer for you. You are in my prayers. I especially pray that your spiritual director can help you discern what is right for you. Unfortunately, there is no one answer to fit every person who struggles with SSA. Some find relief and solace in prayer and find that chastity/celibacy is the only path they can take. Among those who are lead to celibacy, some find that it helps to develop nonsexual same sex friendships, especially one close friendship, while others find that such are uncomfortable. Other people with that struggle can bring themselves to have sexual relations with the opposite sex and get married to someone with whom they fall in love. I even knew one couple where both the man and the woman struggled with SSA as their primary attraction, and they had three natural children. Fulfillment in life is not based on sexaand marriage, but it can be a part of it for some people. As I said, I will pray for you to find the answer which is right for you. I know enough people with the struggle that I wish I could say that it isn’t even sinful to have a loving committed same sex relationship, but I am not a theologian so I just trust the church on the issue.