SSPV

[DL82]

What ever happened to the Society of St Pius V? I think they were a scism within a scism, or may have been a completely separate scismatic group.

I suppose, as with any separation in the Church, it carries on ad infinitum until each group is only a handful of ‘true’ believers.

I seem to remember there was even a SSPI at one point, though I can’t remember whether they were real or a parody.

 

[Brendan]

I seem to remember there was even a SSPI at one point, though I can’t remember whether they were real or a parody.

It was a parody that decried the translation of the liturgy from Greek into the common Latin.

The site seems to be defunt but here is the main text

Welcome to the fledgling website of the Society of St. Pius I (SSPI). Unlike other so-called “traditionalist” Roman Catholic groups, we adhere to the ORIGINAL Roman Catholic Mass of A.D. 40-200, and described by St. Justin Martyr and the Apostolic Constitutions, and used by Pope St. Pius I of happy memory.

Don’t be fooled by PHONY “Vulgate” neotraditionalists, who claim to protect tradition, and yet still defend the RADICAL and totally UNCATHOLIC reforms of the 4th century A.D.

So-called “trads” pretend to be against the modernism of the last hundred years, but where were they when the original Rite of Rome, the Greek rite USED BY ST. PETER AND THE APOSTLES was being totally gutted and revised by unknown scholars and translated into the vernacular language of Latin?

Unlike other wimpy neo-traditionalist groups who attach themselves to various other Piuses, we at the SSPI make absolutely ZERO compromises with modernism. We reject not just one, but BOTH “Novus Ordos”—the Novus Ordo of 1970 promulgated by Paul VI, and the Latin Vulgate Mass of 400 A.D. promulgated by Innocent I and Pope Gregory I, which we call the “Vulgar Mass.”

Thanks to the miracle of the internet, we can now spread the TRUTH about the REAL Roman liturgical tradition which is being kept alive only by a brave remnant of faithful Catholics: myself and whoever else wants to join.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

It was a parody that decried the translation of the liturgy from Greek into the common Latin.

I thought it was Hebrew?

 

[KMXV]

Parody always works better when it actually contains humor. In my opinion.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Parody always works better when it actually contains humor. In my opinion.

Well, if some of the “traditionalists” sounded to you like they sound to some of us, you’d think it was a stitch.

 

[kleary]

What ever happened to the Society of St Pius V? I think they were a scism within a scism, or may have been a completely separate scismatic group.

I suppose, as with any separation in the Church, it carries on ad infinitum until each group is only a handful of ‘true’ believers.

I seem to remember there was even a SSPI at one point, though I can’t remember whether they were real or a parody.

The Society of St. Pius V is a splinter group from the Society of St. Pius X I believe. They think the SSPX is too liberal- using the 1962 Missal. The SSPV uses the previous missal, without the Holy Week reforms and St. Joseph’s name in the Roman Canon I think…correct me if I am wrong.

Ken

 

[TNT]

The Society of St. Pius V is a splinter group from the Society of St. Pius X I believe. They think the SSPX is too liberal- using the 1962 Missal. The SSPV uses the previous missal, without the Holy Week reforms and St. Joseph’s name in the Roman Canon I think…correct me if I am wrong.

Ken

Ok.
SSPV comes from the split with SSPX. Correct.
X/2=V Thus SSPV.​

They just took the SSPX position to its logical conclusion…They ain’t popes cause no pope can defect & remain pope. aka, they’re Sedevancantist with a dash of Bapt of Desire thrown in.

 

[Herrobp]

Couple of things…

First it is called SSPV in honor of Pope St. Pius V who promulgated the tridentine mass, not X/2 = V (although it is a funny coincidence). Secondly, the split appeared to be more of a financial takeover attempt than anything else. A few priests did disagree with the position held by Archbishop Lefebvre that the new mass was valid (albeit a bad development for the church). However they, namely “fathers” Dolan and Kelley and their followers, really appeared to want the churches they occupied in Cincinnati more than anything else. They used their squable with the Archbishop to justify thier successful attempt to steal some churches from the SSPX and divert the cash flow (from big donor families in their congregations) into thier own coffers. At least that is the story as has been told to me for years from my grandparents who were members of the SSPX in Cincinnati at the time. The SSPV was ultimately a schism from a schism, which just goes to show what happens when churches separate from Rome (even with the best of intentions). The Traditional movement has been one giant infighting mess from its inception. It’s goals have been noble (generally) and it has at least succeeded in putting pressure on Rome to do the right thing and provide for more opportunities to attend licit Tridentine masses. Hope the info helps.

 

[AJV]

Ok.
SSPV comes from the split with SSPX. Correct.
X/2=V Thus SSPV.

That’s clever.

 

[RobedWithLight]

It was a parody that decried the translation of the liturgy from Greek into the common Latin.

The site seems to be defunt but here is the main text

Welcome to the fledgling website of the Society of St. Pius I (SSPI). Unlike other so-called “traditionalist” Roman Catholic groups, we adhere to the ORIGINAL Roman Catholic Mass of A.D. 40-200, and described by St. Justin Martyr and the Apostolic Constitutions, and used by Pope St. Pius I of happy memory.

SSPI may be a parody but come to think of it, this is exactly what happens if we take traditionalism too far. It all assumes the character of a parody. And if “traditionalists” are to be consistent, then the SSPI are in fact the more authentic item, don’t you think?

 

[RobedWithLight]

Couple of things…

First it is called SSPV in honor of Pope St. Pius V who promulgated the tridentine mass, not X/2 = V (although it is a funny coincidence). Secondly, the split appeared to be more of a financial takeover attempt than anything else. A few priests did disagree with the position held by Archbishop Lefebvre that the new mass was valid (albeit a bad development for the church). However they, namely “fathers” Dolan and Kelley and their followers, really appeared to want the churches they occupied in Cincinnati more than anything else. They used their squable with the Archbishop to justify thier successful attempt to steal some churches from the SSPX and divert the cash flow (from big donor families in their congregations) into thier own coffers. At least that is the story as has been told to me for years from my grandparents who were members of the SSPX in Cincinnati at the time. The SSPV was ultimately a schism from a schism, which just goes to show what happens when churches separate from Rome (even with the best of intentions). The Traditional movement has been one giant infighting mess from its inception. It’s goals have been noble (generally) and it has at least succeeded in putting pressure on Rome to do the right thing and provide for more opportunities to attend licit Tridentine masses. Hope the info helps.

Just like what happened to the Protestant Reformation. Schism often gives birth to more schism, with no end in sight.

 

[gorman64]

Couple of things…

First it is called SSPV in honor of Pope St. Pius V who promulgated the tridentine mass, not X/2 = V (although it is a funny coincidence). Secondly, the split appeared to be more of a financial takeover attempt than anything else. A few priests did disagree with the position held by Archbishop Lefebvre that the new mass was valid (albeit a bad development for the church). However they, namely “fathers” Dolan and Kelley and their followers, really appeared to want the churches they occupied in Cincinnati more than anything else. They used their squable with the Archbishop to justify thier successful attempt to steal some churches from the SSPX and divert the cash flow (from big donor families in their congregations) into thier own coffers. At least that is the story as has been told to me for years from my grandparents who were members of the SSPX in Cincinnati at the time. The SSPV was ultimately a schism from a schism, which just goes to show what happens when churches separate from Rome (even with the best of intentions). The Traditional movement has been one giant infighting mess from its inception. It’s goals have been noble (generally) and it has at least succeeded in putting pressure on Rome to do the right thing and provide for more opportunities to attend licit Tridentine masses. Hope the info helps.

Dear Herrobp:

Fr.'s Dolan and Kelley were expelled from SSPX with the “nine” in 1983…Archbishop Lefebvre forced them out of the SSPX. Since these Priests are really just independent priests (SSPX is a pious union, not an Order), the ownership of the Churches was determined to be by these Priests who ran the parishes.

What you’ve posted here is calumny. You should retract it.

Yours,

Gorman

P.S. I also notice that you say “fathers” Dolan and Kelley…is that a mistake or just another subtle calumny. They were both ordained in the old rite by Archbishop Lefebvre…do you doubt their orders? If so why?

 

[Herrobp]

If the information I typed is incorrect I apologize, and retract it. However what I wrote was from the perspective of my grandparents. What I know about the situation I know from them. They believed that fathers Dolan and Kelley used their differences with the archbishop as a pretext to sort of “force” expulsion so that they could take properties held by the society. Maybe they read into their motives wrong, maybe not. That is not for me to say.

As to the validity of their ordinations, I do not doubt them. I placed quotation marks around the word “fathers” because priests are supposed to guide and protect the “flock”, and from my family’s perspective they did more damage to the traditional movement and caused division which weakened the movement, perhaps helped lead to it’s separation from Rome, and weakened it’s ability to influence Rome at the time.

Please understand that this can be a touchy subject, but there is no need for vitriol. We can recollect events or stories of those events civily and respectfully and be free to disagree with one another, charitably.

 

[gorman64]

If the information I typed is incorrect I apologize, and retract it. However what I wrote was from the perspective of my grandparents. What I know about the situation I know from them. They believed that fathers Dolan and Kelley used their differences with the archbishop as a pretext to sort of “force” expulsion so that they could take properties held by the society. Maybe they read into their motives wrong, maybe not. That is not for me to say.

My point is that it is not for you to say…and you appear to agree with that. Why say it then?

It’s not vitriol either…you repeat an opinion that assumes the worst (traditionalists can be rather negative, if you haven’t noticed ) then you hereby apologise and retract it if it’s wrong. I don’t think you should have posted it in the first place because it is inaccurate factually and the opinion of your grandparents assumes the worst (and I base this on what I know of the expulsion of “the nine” in 1983). There were serious issues with the theological position of SSPX…these are well known…to suggest that the reason for the expulsion was some contrived plan to gain Church properties seems incredible to me. To assume this to be the case *when there are other explanations *lacks charity IMHO.

As to the validity of their ordinations, I do not doubt them. I placed quotation marks around the word “fathers” because priests are supposed to guide and protect the “flock”, and from my family’s perspective they did more damage to the traditional movement and caused division which weakened the movement, perhaps helped lead to it’s separation from Rome, and weakened it’s ability to influence Rome at the time.

Why does Rome need “influenced”?..and I think the SSPX was already surpressed well before the consecrations in 1988 that resulted in the “excommunications”.

Please understand that this can be a touchy subject…

And that is why we should refrain from blaming individual priests and try to just discuss the facts.

Yours,

Gorman

 

[Jean_Anthony]

It is against forum rules to accuse people who are not on the board and cannot defend themselves or to make derogatory remarks about clergymen (who also are not here and so cannot defend themselves). Please refrain from doing so, everyone.

Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[Formosus]

Dear Herrobp:

Fr.'s Dolan and Kelley were expelled from SSPX with the “nine” in 1983…Archbishop Lefebvre forced them out of the SSPX. Since these Priests are really just independent priests (SSPX is a pious union, not an Order), the ownership of the Churches was determined to be by these Priests who ran the parishes.

What you’ve posted here is calumny. You should retract it.

Yours,

Gorman

P.S. I also notice that you say “fathers” Dolan and Kelley…is that a mistake or just another subtle calumny. They were both ordained in the old rite by Archbishop Lefebvre…do you doubt their orders? If so why?

Actually that would be Bishops Dolan and Kelly. +Kelly was ordained bishop by a former bishop of Puerto Rico and +Dolan was ordained by one of the more legitimate +Thuc ordinations. As far as I know, Rome has recognized the most important three +Thuc consecretions to be valid, you will have to excuse me though because I do not remember all three of there names (+Des Lauriers was one of the three ).

 

[gorman64]

Actually that would be Bishops Dolan and Kelly. +Kelly was ordained bishop by a former bishop of Puerto Rico and +Dolan was ordained by one of the more legitimate +Thuc ordinations. As far as I know, Rome has recognized the most important three +Thuc consecretions to be valid, you will have to excuse me though because I do not remember all three of there names (+Des Lauriers was one of the three ).

Yes. They were only priests at the time of this controversy however. Bp.Carmona and Bp. Zamora were the other two consecrated in October of 1981…Bishop Guérard des Lauriers was in May of 1981.

Gorman

 

[pnewton]

CLARENCE Kelly and Daniel Dolan were expelled from the Society of St. Pius X at the same time. Kelly became the leader of the new Society of St. Pius V. He and Dolan had a falling out, and the two have been in competition every since.

For the whole article (although I don’t know too much about the author ):
catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9507fea1.asp

 

[thebigbang]

And while we’re at it, we should not that the Pius V Missal is very anti-Semitic in nature because of its blaming the Jews for the death of Christ. It was the Sanhedrin and the Romans who had Jesus killed, not the Jews themselves.