Sspx alternatives in communion with rome

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Yes, Holy Family celebrates the Novus Ordo in Latin ad orientem. I went to the Easter Vigil there this year----AMAZING!

St. Vincent de Paul, also run by the Oratorians, celebrates the TLM. Their TLM is 9:30 Sunday morning, it is a Missa Cantata.

There is a parish in Scarborough and a parish in Schoemburg that celebrate the TLM.

The SSPX chapel is in Etobicoke.
I was at the St. Vincent de Paul 9:30 just this last Sunday 👍 . But do you know of any TLMs closer to me, in Burlington? You seem like you know where they’re at :o

Otherwise I guess ill just have to start using the GO/TTC :S . Which I imagine isnt too bad on a Sunday morning.
 
Yes, Holy Family celebrates the Novus Ordo in Latin ad orientem. I went to the Easter Vigil there this year----AMAZING!

St. Vincent de Paul, also run by the Oratorians, celebrates the TLM. Their TLM is 9:30 Sunday morning, it is a Missa Cantata.

There is a parish in Scarborough and a parish in Schoemburg that celebrate the TLM.

The SSPX chapel is in Etobicoke.
I was at the St. Vincent de Paul 9:30 just this last Sunday 👍 . But do you know of any TLMs closer to me, in Burlington? You seem like you know where they’re at :o

Otherwise I guess ill just have to start using the GO/TTC :S . Which I imagine isnt too bad on a Sunday morning.
 
Wasn’t it W.C.Fields who said, when asked what he was doing with a bible, "I’m looking for the loop holes " ? :rolleyes:

Loop holes … so many look for the loop holes.
 
may not confect the sacrament.
You wouldn’t dare speed would you. Just because laws exist doesn’t mean people follow them. This is a direct result of original sin, which we seem to ignore these days. We are an imperfect people living in an imperfect world. The most we can accomplish on the subject is to agree to disagree on the SSPX question and follow your conscience.

If you have access to the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest, PLEASE visit one of their Masses. Especially if you are in the St. Louis area. The Mass at St. Francis DeSales is the most beautiful I’ve ever seen. In a church that was built for just that one thing. Gothic architecture is one of my favorite styles, but just the experience was awe inspiring. It is none of the things I have heard of pre-Vatican 2 times. If your not careful, you forget about all this silly nonsense.

I have not attended a parish staffed by the FSSP, but I hear they are about as orthodox as they come. Plus they have their own seminary in Denton(Lincoln)Nebraska. Both ICKSP & FSSP use strictly the books according to the 1962 rite(all Sacraments)under the indult, Ecclesia Dei Adflicta, in union with both the local Ordinary and the Holy Father.
 
I’m getting weary of people non-chalantly stating that SSPX is “outside the Church.”

Are we more Catholic than the pope now?
  1. Vatican congregations have declared that relations with SSPX are an “internal matter of the Church”
  2. Cardinal Ratzinger lifted excommunication of SSPX adherents in Hawaii by their bishop declaring that even ardent public support of SSPX is not an excommunicable offense (which it would be if SSPX were outside the Church)
  3. Vatican congregation has declared it OK for Catholics to attend SSPX Masses and even financially support them
There is a rather large difference between it being OK for catholics to attend SSPX Masses and the actual position of the Vatican which is that it is NOT RECOMMENDED that you attened an sspx mass. That is the bottome line. everything else is a pretty argument. nice and all but in the end the Vatican recommendation stands until the Vatican removes it. The is just the factual case of the matter. I am not here to augue the matter it has been decided. The point is there are alternatives where you can celebrate in the church. without haveing to go to excommunicated bishops who are not really bishops at all. You CAN worship in the old rite inside the church. My question is why would you not prefer to go to a mass in the church. When you know for a fact…

I mean this argument demonstrates perfectly that the status of SSPX is in rather large question at the very least. Why would you not support the alternatives the church gives you allowing you the old rite if it is possible. Rather then putting your soul in harms way by doing something the Vatican does not recommend and is dangerous for your salvation.I mean if SSPX gets excommincated tommorow what are you going to do? Answer that one really think about it. and give me an answer.
 
There is a rather large difference between it being OK for catholics to attend SSPX Masses and the actual position of the Vatican which is that it is NOT RECOMMENDED that you attened an sspx mass.
True, but is it not also true that there is a big difference in what Rome ACCEPTS and what it TOLERATES in any other Rite as well?

But in the end it really isn’t the attendance that matters as much as the mindset. True in any Catholic Rite. You go in with the intention of destroying the Church, I’m sorry but you haven’t fulfilled your Sabbath obligation.
 
…I agreed with a lot of what he said (although not all). What I disagree with is Archbishop Lefebvre’s decision to ordain those four bishops illicitly.
IF he had never ever done so, then what would have been the point in protesting modernism at all. If, in your position you can do something, but refuse then Tradition as he understood it and wanted to preserve would have remained only in his grave. A Traditional bishop is essential to this endeavor.
In other words, his conscience made a demand on him, and he answered it the best way he could.
In summary, he held that in the face of modernism, one must “obey God rather than man”.

On this point he was prophetic: helter skelter reigns supreme in the Conciliar church. Confusion is its unifying mark, no longer ONE faith.

Am I a peacmaker or what!http://www.tradebit.com/usr/puzzler/pub/9001/thumb-dya2.gif
 
Plainly and clearly spoken, even if there are those who disagree. You are correct.
 
… The point is there are alternatives where you can celebrate in the church. without having to go to excommunicated bishops who are not really bishops at all. You CAN worship in the old rite inside the church. My question is why would you not prefer to go to a mass in the church. When you know for a fact…
…Why would you not support the alternatives the church gives you allowing you the old rite*** if it is possible***. Rather then putting your soul in harms way by doing something the Vatican does not recommend and is dangerous for your salvation.I mean if SSPX gets excommincated tommorow what are you going to do? Answer that one really think about it. and give me an answer.
Ok, one at a time.
First on the list is:
excommunicated bishops who are not really bishops at all.”
IF this were true, you just blew up the entire E-Orthodox church. A bishop may be excommunicated but he retains his title and his raw ability/power to consecrate & ordain. All of whom would be valid assuming legit matter & form.
Second up is:
"support the alternatives the church gives you "
Well, the church gives but the ruling bishop may not which is still the majority condition as others have testified herein.
In addition, the SSPX is not JUST about the TLM, it’s about VAT_II documents and the aftermath. So just a TLM solves 50% of a wreck, which still gives you a wreck.
Third we have:
*“putting your soul in harms way by doing something the Vatican does not recommend
*As others of the Vatican faithful have affirmed all over this Forum, when one acts in good conscience, as he must do, they are in the way of salvation. Therefore danger to one’s soul is objectively greater under the tutelage of modernism than traditionalism, especially the youth.Fourth and Final we have:
*"**if SSPX gets excommincated tommorow what are you going to do? Answer that one really think about it. and give me an answer."
***The answer is that if it isn’t already excommunicated, the SSPX does/would not recognize its excommunication by the Vatican Conciliar church.
It is renegade to the Conciliar church. So why would it gasp at being under the enemy’s excommunication?
It’s kinda like G. Washington reacting to King George’s declaring him an enemy of the Crown. The British colonists didn’t en-mass abandon Washington.
They would simply see it as Modernism condemning Traditionalism.
 
What I object to is the casual hurling of the term schism around by people who obviously have no idea about its theological definition. Fortunately, some of the old classicaly educated Cardinals still know what they’re talking about.

Disobedience, even chronic disobedience, DOES NOT EQUAL schism. Schism entails the principled rejection of papal authority.

Excommunication of the consecrating / consecrated bishops DOES NOT EQUAL excommunication of all SSPX adherants, not even of all the priests, only that priests ordained by the bishops are suspended.

In the meantime, Paul VI declared that nothing at Vatican II had the note of infallibility, that the Council was pastoral, not dogmatic, and therefore did not intend to define any new doctrine, a commission of cardinals appointed by John Paul II admitted that the Tridentine Latin Mass had never been abrogated, most of the abuses currently running rampant in Novus Ordo parishes happen by way of PERMISSIONS and not commands – e.g. altar girls, lay ministers, communion in the hand. There has never been any mandate from Rome to the effect that these practices must take place – in fact Rome opposed communion in the hand and altar girls for the longest time, characterizing them as abuses before finally caving in and tolerating it. Consequently, even the case for disobedience is very weak at best. Apart from the consecration of bishops done without the consent of Rome, explain how the SSPX are even disobedient by Rome’s standards.

In any case, where they have been positively disobedient, they have been more than justified because what they disobey clearly has been destroying faith and morals in the Church, and they have not only the right but even a duty to disobey.

It’s funny to attack the alleged “schism” of SSPX where in point of fact a single individual at any given SSPX chapel has more faith and more devotion to Holy Mother Church and to the Holy Father than entire Novus Ordo parishes combined. In your typical Novus Ordo parish, >80-90% of Catholics by most polls today deny one or more dogmas of the faith, the vast majority defy the Church’s teaching on birth control, many live in sin due to divorce / remarriage, throngs waltz up to Communion while you’re lucky to see half a dozen people at Confession any given weekend. It’s an ABSOLUTE DISASTER. I have a right before God – Pope Benedict or no Pope Benedict – not to have my own soul and those of my children subjected to these things which cause decay of faith, to not have to listen to one heretical or modernist proposition after another from the pulpits, to not have myself or my children subjected to watching half-dressed people milling around in front of the tabernacle gabbing away about the afternoon’s football game as if Our Lord weren’t present there. I have a right not to have to answer my children’s question like: “Daddy, why did Father say that? Daddy, why are people at Church in shorts? Daddy, why are there girls wearing cassocks in the sanctuary – or worse still girls with bare midrifs serving Mass? Daddy, why are there so few people at Confession? Daddy, why do people who receive Communion act like they’re just casually munching on potato chips on a couch watching a football game?” I answer to God for the souls of my children and not the Pope Benedict.

We have a right not to have to go to these garbage parishes – and until Rome and the bishops clean up their act, they have no right to force us to go there.
 
This post seems mostly to address arguments that haven’t been made in this thread. I don’t attend Masses with altar girls, EMHCs, or the SSPX and I fight for orthodoxy in our diocese. Thankfully this fight has paid off with a great new bishop who is righting the wrongs. We didn’t get this by running off to the SSPX. We got it by staying and fighting. We got it by dealing with the crud along with Our Lord. This is probably the reason the Vatican doesn’t allow us to join the “SSPX schism”. If we hide in the bunker than who will be outside fighting the fight? The Vatican heard our cries because, well, we were creative but that’s a whole other thread.👍
 
I am trying to wrap my mind around why people would go outside the church to find the traditional latin rite when there seem to be several apostulates in the church that allow that very thing.
I’ll add my voice to those who have already said it’s not as simple as you have stated.
the priestly fraternity of peter
The Priestly Fraternity is not in the majority of the dioceses in the United States. They are not in the Archdiocese of Chicago or any of the surrounding dioceses. Now, we are fortunate to have the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest in the Archdiocese of Chicago as well as the Diocese of Rockford. We also have four other churches (including my parish St. John Vianney in Northlake) in addition to the Institute that offer a Tridentine Mass every Sunday in the Archdiocese of Chicago. There are many dioceses where there is no Tridentine Mass because the local ordinary refuses to allow it. So much for a “wide and generous application” of the Tridentine Mass.
the apostolic administration of st. john mary vianney
They are in Brazil. I’m not sure if they are outside South America, but they certainly aren’t anywhere in North America, let alone the United States.
center international d’etudes liturgique

the benedictine monastery of st. madeleine de le barroux
I have never heard of either one of these places. They aren’t in the United States as far as I know.
diocesan ecclesia dei indult mass centers
As I previously stated, there are many dioceses where the local ordinary refuses to give an indult. This is why so many are waiting for the alleged motu prorprio to remove restrictions on the Tridentine Mass.
that seems like a lot of different alternatives to me. A lot of places one should be able to go to find the old latin rite. why stay involved with a scismatic protesting rite when you can still go to the old latin rite in the church without the contraversy.
I agree that one should seek out an indult Tridentine Mass. I’m not saying I agree with those who attend an SSPX or independent chapel. I’m only saying I understand their reasons for attending said chapels.
 
PACKERS 26, BEARS 7

I was a Bears fan until this past superbowl, ouch.

Anyway, It seems the FSSP is in a few smaller diocese and then they are generally requested by the local Ordinary. The ICKSP is the only group in communion with Rome that I have personal knowledge of and they are a great group of Priest. The SSPX people are also good people, just very adamant about some things. Don’t hate them for their beliefs and remember it is not our place to condemn them either. Only Christ knows the condition of one’s soul. If they separate themselves from Christ’s Church, that is between they and He.
 
PACKERS 26, BEARS 7

I was a Bears fan until this past superbowl, ouch.
Congratulations on coming to your senses! 😃

Actually, this makes you a true Bears fans, as the rest of Chicago jumped off the Bears bandwagon with you after they lost the Super Bowl. Bears fans ran their mouths like they were the Energizer bunny the two weeks before the Super Bowl but they sure got quiet once they lost. It’s typical of Bears fans. I didn’t know the Bears still played football from 1992-2004 because nobody in Chicago cared about them. Bears fans only follow the Bears when they win. No loyalty whatsoever. They even had 6,700 no shows for their playoff game against the Seahawks. Of course this was the first game since the Packers smacked them all around their pathetic spaceship.

I want to see the Bears go back to the Super Bowl. I won $300 from the cerebrally challenged Bears fans who actually thought they could beat the Colts and stop Peyton Manning when they couldn’t stop Tim Rattay.
 
TNT,

On the secular level, most bishops also are given trusteeship positions of all the land and church, school, rectory and other buildings within their diocese as well. But that’s interesting also, since a federal judge has now ruled that one particular bishop cannot sell church buildings in order to settle claims made against the diocese.
 
S.G.

Speaking of Green Bay, have you had a chance to visit St. Joseph’s over there by the bay? Nice Latin Mass community there, I think.
 
Please don’t discuss sports issues in the Traditional Catholicism forum. Use the Clubhouse or Back Fence for such topics. Thank you, everyone.
 
It’s funny to attack the alleged “schism” of SSPX where in point of fact a single individual at any given SSPX chapel has more faith and more devotion to Holy Mother Church and to the Holy Father than entire Novus Ordo parishes combined. In your typical Novus Ordo parish, >80-90% of Catholics by most polls today deny one or more dogmas of the faith, the vast majority defy the Church’s teaching on birth control, many live in sin due to divorce / remarriage, throngs waltz up to Communion while you’re lucky to see half a dozen people at Confession any given weekend. It’s an ABSOLUTE DISASTER. I have a right before God – Pope Benedict or no Pope Benedict – not to have my own soul and those of my children subjected to these things which cause decay of faith, to not have to listen to one heretical or modernist proposition after another from the pulpits, to not have myself or my children subjected to watching half-dressed people milling around in front of the tabernacle gabbing away about the afternoon’s football game as if Our Lord weren’t present there. I have a right not to have to answer my children’s question like: “Daddy, why did Father say that? Daddy, why are people at Church in shorts? Daddy, why are there girls wearing cassocks in the sanctuary – or worse still girls with bare midrifs serving Mass? Daddy, why are there so few people at Confession? Daddy, why do people who receive Communion act like they’re just casually munching on potato chips on a couch watching a football game?” I answer to God for the souls of my children and not the Pope Benedict.

We have a right not to have to go to these garbage parishes – and until Rome and the bishops clean up their act, they have no right to force us to go there.
Hmmhhh…something to think about, definitely, and I can truly sympathize with your position. I am just concerned that separation from the Church is going to do great harm in the long run, just as in Martin Luther’s case. If your child asked, as you said,
“Daddy, why did Father say that? Daddy, why are people at Church in shorts? Daddy, why are there girls wearing cassocks in the sanctuary – or worse still girls with bare midrifs serving Mass? Daddy, why are there so few people at Confession? Daddy, why do people who receive Communion act like they’re just casually munching on potato chips on a couch watching a football game?”
would you say "This is all because of Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Mass? Or, would it be the result of an increasingly secular society and the Church’s unwillingness or inability to do something about it? It seems to me that the heretics in the Church would still be heretics even if the TLM was the only Mass available.

I am concerned that my posts suggest that I am not sympathetic to the traditionalist position. However, this is not the case at all. I am just very troubled by any hint of schism. There are problems in the Church today, just as there were in Luther’s day. However, I do not think another Protestant Reformation is the answer.

God bless!
 
Hmmhhh…something to think about, definitely, and I can truly sympathize with your position. I am just concerned that separation from the Church is going to do great harm in the long run, just as in Martin Luther’s case.
OR you can look at St. Paul finally convincing St. Peter that he needed to clean up his act. And the early Christian Church was better for it.

Luther definitely was influential. He had convincing ideas but too bad they were not compatible with the teachings of the Catholic faith.
 
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