C
Crusading_Canuk
Guest
I know and understand the SSPX’s views on the NO Mass, however I have no idea how they feel about the Anglican Use Mass. Does anybody know?
- Status
Z
Zacdecat
Guest
As in the Church of England?
Does the canon of the Anglican mass endorse the Mystery of the Transubstantiation? Probably not, as the clergy are not priests.
Does the canon of the Anglican mass endorse the Mystery of the Transubstantiation? Probably not, as the clergy are not priests.
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
The Anglican Use Mass is the Catholic Mass which is adopted from the Anglican Mass. It is 100% Catholic and yes, it does endorse the Mystery of the Eucharist. It is to be used by parishes that were formerly Anglican/Episcopalian which has since joined the Catholic Church.
P
ProVobis
Guest
The SSPX are clergy who use the 1962 Missal exclusively. Some of those in English-speaking countries may have some interest in the Anglican Use Mass but I doubt if they have plans to say anything other than the 1962 Missal.
C
Crusading_Canuk
Guest
Ok, obviously the SSPX are not gooing to use the Anglican Use Mass any time soon (or at all for that matter) but do they regard it as a “real” Mass.
Z
Zacdecat
Guest
This is around the wrong way…the Anglican Mass is descended from the Catholic Mass as the Church of England was schismatic from Rome from the time of Henry 8th and the bishops too afraid to stand up to the king with one or exceptions.
I have visited some very impressive Anglican Churches and have been awed on seeing in one or two, the Stations of the Cross which makes them very high indeed.
It is to be used by parishes that were formerly Anglican/Episcopalian which has since joined the Catholic Church
Are you able to show me links or other verification so I can see? I am very interested in knowing more!
Z
Zacdecat
Guest
No, that is right. Again, how could it be a “real” Mass when the Anglican priesthood is not of the Catholic Faith. After the death of the bishops consecrated by Rome before the Church of England split away, the succession was lost.
M
MarkThompson
Guest
This is around the wrong way…the Anglican Mass is descended from the Catholic Mass as the Church of England was schismatic from Rome from the time of Henry 8th and the bishops too afraid to stand up to the king with one or exceptions.
I have visited some very impressive Anglican Churches and have been awed on seeing in one or two, the Stations of the Cross which makes them very high indeed.
It is to be used by parishes that were formerly Anglican/Episcopalian which has since joined the Catholic Church
Are you able to show me links or other verification so I can see? I am very interested in knowing more!
The Anglican Use Mass (as opposed to the Anglican Mass) is a form of the rite used by a handful of parishes that have left the Anglican Communion and are now in communion with Rome. It is basically the Anglican Mass (which, as you not, is descended from the Roman Catholic Mass) with a few corrections – as I understand it, fairly minor ones. Their priests are validly ordained, and the Mass itself validly confects the Eucharist.
J
JReducation
Guest
I that that what you folks are talking about is what is often called the TAC. These are the Anglicans who have entered the Catholic Church and have been allowed to keep their form of the mass with its canon intact. In the canon the words of consecration are present. Since the priests are conditionally ordained, according to the directives of Pope John Paul II and now Pope Benedict’s latest decree, the mass is valid and licit.
Whether or not the Society accepts this, I have no idea. In the end, it is the Vatican who has to accept it as valid. Not only does the Vatican accept it as valid, but the ordination is worded so that it’s conditional, because of the confusion of who’s a validly ordained bishop and who is not in the Anglican communion. It’s very hard to sort it all out.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Whether or not the Society accepts this, I have no idea. In the end, it is the Vatican who has to accept it as valid. Not only does the Vatican accept it as valid, but the ordination is worded so that it’s conditional, because of the confusion of who’s a validly ordained bishop and who is not in the Anglican communion. It’s very hard to sort it all out.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
M
MarkThompson
Guest
My understanding had been that maybe a couple of priests were ordained conditionally at the very beginning of the Pastoral Provision, but since then they have all been ordained absolutely. Am I mistaken?
Z
Zacdecat
Guest
…ahhhhh, so it becomes a matter of intent and those wonderfully cheese paring slices of canonical law…way too head hurting for this little black duck:thumbsup:
J
JReducation
Guest
I went back to the Constitution Anglicanorum and looked up the part of ordination. The question is not really answered. My guess is that it will be up to the ordaining bishop to make that judgment call.
**VI. § 1. Those who ministered as Anglican deacons, priests, or bishops, and who fulfil the requisites established by canon law[13] and are not impeded by irregularities or other impediments[14] may be accepted by the Ordinary as candidates for Holy Orders in the Catholic Church. In the case of married ministers, the norms established in the Encyclical Letter of Pope Paul VI Sacerdotalis coelibatus, n. 42[15] and in the Statement In June[16] are to be observed. Unmarried ministers must submit to the norm of clerical celibacy of CIC can. 277, §1. **
This is all it says and then it moves on to the formation and so forth.
I have seen blogs by the Anglican side that claim that Roma has denied its Orders and demands that the individual deny that he was ever ordained. The language is a little strong. I don’t get that impression at all from the Constitution, nor from those who have been ordained.
The few that I have met do not seem to feel that they were asked to belittle themselves by denying their previous ministry or its validity. They were asked to make the profession of faith, to be confirmed and ordained again in case they belonged to one of the many lines of invalidly ordained Anglican cerics. Whether the term “conditional” was used in the rite or not. The way that it was presented to them was very charitable and honest. “Just in case”. They don’t have a problem with this, because one of the reasons that they want to enter the Catholic Church is because they realize that with each generation they get further and further from their roots.
What was once a struggle for political and economic power between king and Church, trapping the faithful in the middle, grew into an unamanageable situation for both king and Church. No one knows who is and who is not. What’s really interesting is that some people still reduce this chaos to a conflict between king and pope over a divorce. That was the fly in the ointment, but the ointment went much deeper with Church and Crown at fault.
Both are at fault that this mess ever happened. It makes sense that both work cooperatively to reunite the faithful, even though the current generation of Anglicans and Roman Catholics are not at fault. It was our anscestors. One has to wonder, how people of that time managed to create such dead end situations for themselves that would trap innocent people in the middle of a conflict between royalty and hierarchy. WHAT WERE THEY THINKING BACK THEN?
As to what the SSPX can object to, I don’t see anything in their form of the mass that is objectionable. The most important part are the words of consecration and those are present in the Anglican Eucharistic prayer.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
P
ProVobis
Guest
The only thing I could see as an objection is the fact that this is a translation of the formerly-approved texts of the Roman Rite. I know calling the Victim a host or reciting “one in substance with the Father”, for example, are problematic for a few. I heard other objections from an “independent” priest who had carefully studied the Anglican Mass. But I don’t think it’s a serious concern amongst those in the SSPX who have no interest in a particular vernacular like Henry VIII English.
J
JReducation
Guest
I don’t think those concerns are shaerd by the Congregation on Divine Worship. According to what Pope Benedict told Seewal, the four bishops have accepted the authority of the Primacy and what that implies. The Constitution allows for the books that are approved by the Holy See. If this wording is in those books. then it would be reasonable to believe that anyone who accepts the authority of the Primacy to approve them will not try to run interference.
Besides, the SSPX leadership has more important issues to resolve with the Holy See. They seem to be moving forward at a graceful pace. Why throw a wrench into the works? Bishop Fellay is an intelligent man and I believe, a good negotiator. A good negotiator does not sabbotage his progress by bringing in an issue that’s not on the agenda. If it’s something that is very serious, you call the talks to a hault until you can renegotiate the agenda. This is not big enough to bring the talks to a hault and revamp the agenda.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
F
Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
For those interested in seeing what the Anglican Use Mass is all about you can go to this website,
The Book of Divine Worship,
and download a pdf copy of it.
The Book of Divine Worship,
and download a pdf copy of it.
J
JReducation
Guest
It actually looks very much like the reformed version of the Ordinary Form that is coming in Advent 2011, with the only difference being the words of consecration say “for you and for all” instead of “for the many”.
Of course there is the old English and the two readings instead of three. But other variations are insignificant.
Thanks for sharing this.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
B
BernadetteM
Guest
TAC is not part of the Catholic Church. Although many in TAC have petitioned to join the Ordinariate and once the Ordinariate is established in several countries, all former Anglican Bishops and priests who are eligible will be ordained as Catholic priests.
The Anglican Use will also be part of the Ordinariate. They have been in existence for 30 years. Their liturgy was chosen by Rome and it does include parts of the Book of Common Prayer and also some responses from the OF. The Canon used is the same used at Traditional Latin Masses, although some of the words are changed around and the use of old English is used in some areas but the substance is the same. Also the Creed, Sanctus, Kyrie etc. are the same as in the EF/TLM. There are 3 readings in the Anglican Use not two. One from the Old Testament, one from the Epistles and one from the Gospels.
Now that Anglicans from different countries are coming into the Church, a revised prayer book and liturgy will be forthcoming. The original priests who helped establish the Anglican Use were not in agreement with parts of the Book of Divine Worship and wanted to follow the Anglican/American Missal more closely. Hopefully this will be the case when the revisions are made.
Anglican Use Masses would probably be more acceptable to SSPX than the OF of today, but from what I read on their websites, nothing except the Mass said in Latin and exactly the way it was would ever be acceptable to them.
If one is interested they can go to Our Lady of the Atonement Catholic Church, TX on the web and click on the full Mass celebrated using the liturgy they were given by Rome.
I suspect it will be a while before the new liturgy and prayer book is completed, as it takes time to revise any liturgy.
Anglican liturgies have similar prayers that are distinct to Anglican Patrimony, and this is what Pope Benedict seems to treasure within the Anglican church. “Treasures” is the word he decribed to the Anglican Patrimony/traditions.
Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary
Bernadette
The Anglican Use will also be part of the Ordinariate. They have been in existence for 30 years. Their liturgy was chosen by Rome and it does include parts of the Book of Common Prayer and also some responses from the OF. The Canon used is the same used at Traditional Latin Masses, although some of the words are changed around and the use of old English is used in some areas but the substance is the same. Also the Creed, Sanctus, Kyrie etc. are the same as in the EF/TLM. There are 3 readings in the Anglican Use not two. One from the Old Testament, one from the Epistles and one from the Gospels.
Now that Anglicans from different countries are coming into the Church, a revised prayer book and liturgy will be forthcoming. The original priests who helped establish the Anglican Use were not in agreement with parts of the Book of Divine Worship and wanted to follow the Anglican/American Missal more closely. Hopefully this will be the case when the revisions are made.
Anglican Use Masses would probably be more acceptable to SSPX than the OF of today, but from what I read on their websites, nothing except the Mass said in Latin and exactly the way it was would ever be acceptable to them.
If one is interested they can go to Our Lady of the Atonement Catholic Church, TX on the web and click on the full Mass celebrated using the liturgy they were given by Rome.
I suspect it will be a while before the new liturgy and prayer book is completed, as it takes time to revise any liturgy.
Anglican liturgies have similar prayers that are distinct to Anglican Patrimony, and this is what Pope Benedict seems to treasure within the Anglican church. “Treasures” is the word he decribed to the Anglican Patrimony/traditions.
Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary
Bernadette
F
Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
I posted a link to The Book of Divine Worship which is the Anglican Use worship book.
The Holy Eucharist: Rite One contains two readings, the Epistle and the Gospel.
The Holy Eucharist: Rite Two also only contains two readings.
Which is what I remember from the Anglican Use Mass I attended in the Houston area.
B
BernadetteM
Guest
Actually it says in the Order of the Mass that one or two readings may be read. At OLA I believe two are read, plus the Gospel.
I think that Rite II hopefully will be done away with in the new revised edition. It reminds me of the OF. I believe that only one AU parish uses it and I think it is because the priest is from England and some Anglo Catholics in England use the OF, maybe with some Anglican prayers. These are things that must be worked out in the Ordinariate. All the AU priests I know want the Mass to follow closely to one of the Anglican Missals.
As I recall in the TLM/EF they only use two readings, one the Epistle and the other from the Gospel.
The Ordinariates are moving along much quicker now and hopefully by Spring the US and all the other countries will have one established. There are parishes even from TEC who are joining, along with different groups i.e. FIF, TAC and ACA also coming into the Church. This in my opinion is what true unity is. I read posts on CAF and some Anglicans are in such turmoil and actual pain, not knowing what to do. It is a shame that the Papacy holds many back, as the Papacy is what keeps the Church true to the doctrines of the Apostolic Church. Not that all Catholics abide by those doctrines, but individual choices to depart from the faith does not diminish the Truth.
F
Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
The one I attended was Rite One but it had two readings.
Which is what I am used to anyways as that is what the Divine Liturgy has.
The EF also only has two readings.
We did not get three readings until the lectionary was put together for the OF Mass.
- Status