SSPX and Anglican Use Mass

[BernadetteM]

The one I attended was Rite One but it had two readings.

Which is what I am used to anyways as that is what the Divine Liturgy has.

The EF also only has two readings.

We did not get three readings until the lectionary was put together for the OF Mass.

There seems to some diversity between the AU parishes. The only one I attended was at St. Mary the Virgin in Arlington, I was expecting Rite I and felt upset when it was Rite II. Now that I understand where the priest is coming from I am less disappointed.

At this time I am praying for my former Anglo Catholic parish to vote to join, but it appears some members just can’t seem to accept the Papacy. The Deacon is trying to educate them, he will go with Ordinaraite and become a priest which ever way the parish decides. I am sure there will be some members who also follow him. What is sad is that there are only two ACA parishes or any other Anglican parishes in their area. Actually I find that there are really few Continuing groups of one sort or another in California. At least as a Catholic I don’t worry about finding a parish to attend, no matter where I am at.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[corsair]

Here is a Anglican Use site in Texas. Take a look atonementonline.com/

 

[BernadetteM]

Here is a Anglican Use site in Texas. Take a look atonementonline.com/

That is the website I mentioned in my post. You can watch the Anglican Use Mass if you click on it.

I am interested in what the new revision will be, hopefully more (name removed by moderator)ut from the Anglican Use priests this time around.

There is much information on what is happening in the Ordinariates on it. I believe they have a list under the Blog of different sites.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[Cecilianus]

An SSPX priest named Fr. Peter Scott denounced the Anglican Use as heretical:

angelqueen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29092&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=b91425f839ea3775f37cff5920df89d8

I heard an SSPX sympathizer express his outrage to me that the Pope was permitting a Liturgy which people had been martyred for rather than accept, which is certainly a very revisionist interpretation of the history of the English Protestant Revolt to say the very least, not to mention the history of the origin of the English Missal (Oxford Movement period, not Cranmer-era).

Their loss, if they can’t appreciate it. I give their blindness about as much regard as the loathing some traditionalists have for the Eastern Catholic churches. (One commentor on Fr. Scott’s article, on the Fish Eaters forum, said that “The Catholic Church when it pulls out of the grip of Vatican II will show the scars by having only Eparchies and Personal Prelatures and the like.”)

 

[BernadetteM]

An SSPX priest named Fr. Peter Scott denounced the Anglican Use as heretical:

angelqueen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29092&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=b91425f839ea3775f37cff5920df89d8

I heard an SSPX sympathizer express his outrage to me that the Pope was permitting a Liturgy which people had been martyred for rather than accept, which is certainly a very revisionist interpretation of the history of the English Protestant Revolt to say the very least, not to mention the history of the origin of the English Missal (Oxford Movement period, not Cranmer-era).

Their loss, if they can’t appreciate it. I give their blindness about as much regard as the loathing some traditionalists have for the Eastern Catholic churches. (One commentor on Fr. Scott’s article, on the Fish Eaters forum, said that “The Catholic Church when it pulls out of the grip of Vatican II will show the scars by having only Eparchies and Personal Prelatures and the like.”)

I go on that website and there very few that post that have anything positive to post. I don’t recall them posting about the Eastern Rite Churches, maybe because they are not familiar with them.

They really don’t seem to like anything positive that Pope Benedict has done. It is at times a sad website.

History shows that the Church of England did kill Catholics, but that was over 500 years ago and before King Henry the Eighth the Church was Catholic and in many places used the Sarum Use, not the Latin Rite. Beside there was a time in history where Catholics also killed heretics etc. That was the times, hopefully we are somewhat more civilized today. Of course millions are killing babies everyday.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[Chatter163]

I went back to the Constitution Anglicanorum and looked up the part of ordination. The question is not really answered. My guess is that it will be up to the ordaining bishop to make that judgment call.

Oh, I strongly doubt that. This is far too an important matter to be left so wide open. As has been pointed out here, only a handful of Anglican clergy were permitted conditional ordinations (the late Graham Leonard being the best-known example). The precedent of absolute ordination has been the norn and I see nothing to suggest that a different approach will be used. Otherwise too many questions would be raised, and I suspect that the Holy See would prefer to avoid controversy at this juncture.

 

[BernadetteM]

From my understanding, except in extreme circumstances all Anglican priests will be re-ordained. This is for the good of the Church, how can Catholics accept Anglican priests where there is doubt that they have been validly ordained.

I see such fracture within the members of the Church today and it is sad. We really need unity among ourselves. The Holy Father is very wise and I believe he is aware of the problems that will arise among some Catholics with the incoming of Anglicans. Whether it be married priests, the Anglican Use liturgy etc.

Every Anglican priest I know, and there are several are firmly faithful to all that the Church holds true in doctrine. Actually they are very traditional and this also causes problems for those Catholics who are not as orthodox. This includes several Bishops, who have denied an Anglican Use parish within their dioceses these past 30 years.

I see the Ordinariate as a good thing for the Church as there are Catholics who have been brought back into the Church through some of these parishes. Also Protestants, that are not Anglicans have also been brought into the Church.

It is most difficult for some former Anglican priests to be re-ordained, but the Apostolic Constitution does not require them to denouce their former ordination, Rome has been very charitable towards these Anglicans and shown the love of Christ to them.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[ProVobis]

Every Anglican priest I know, and there are several are firmly faithful to all that the Church holds true in doctrine. Actually they are very traditional and this also causes problems for those Catholics who are not as orthodox. This includes several Bishops, who have denied an Anglican Use parish within their dioceses these past 30 years.

I may be wrong on this but doesn’t this “tradition” include rejection of the Council of Trent and Vatican I and the rejection of Catholic doctrine expressed there? As far as I know, the SSPX hold very firmly to the Council of Trent along with Vatican I. I have no doubt the Pope has done his best on this matter, but it’s tough to see where a crash course in Catholic theology will fully bring such Anglican ministers into the Catholic faith right away. Yes, you can cite certain ministers who have accepted the ministry well through use of the Anglican Use liturgy but this matter with bishops takes on an entirely different matter. And FWIW, don’t forget one of the SSPX bishops has his roots with the Anglicans so there may be some deep political issues in play here.

 

[malphono]

I may be wrong on this but doesn’t this tradition include rejection of the Council of Trent and Vatican I and the rejection of Catholic doctrine expressed there? As far as I know, the SSPX hold very firmly to the Council of Trent along with Vatican I. I have no doubt the Pope has done his best on this matter, but it’s tough to see where a crash course in Catholic theology will fully bring such ministers into the Catholic faith right away. Yes, you can cite certain ministers who have accepted the ministry well through use of the Anglican Use liturgy but this matter with bishops takes on an entirely different matter.

I personally knew an Anglican priest (actually 2, and well, it was in the US, so I suppose I should say Episcopal) who was, theologically and liturgically more Catholic than most Catholic priests. One of them has passed away, and the other I haven’t seen in some years, but both used the English Missal (and sometimes even the MR, at least for daily Mass) with the proper commemorations. Neither would argue against anything Catholic but what they would argue against, though, was Cranmer and Luther. If he hasn’t changed since I knew him, I should expect that the younger one will be in line to join the Ordinariate. He was unmarried so it should be a relatively smooth transition for him.

And FWIW, don’t forget one of the SSPX bishops has his roots with the Anglicans.

I shudder to think how could one forget that. :winter:

 

[BernadetteM]

As Malphono said the Anglo Catholic priests I know are more orthodox in their knowledge and belief of all the Catholic Church holds as doctrine than many Catholic Bishops.

The Anglican Use parishes have proven this point after 30 years of existence and have been watched by Rome over these past years. The Holy Father wants these Anglicans in the Church to help bring back more orthodoxy and that is why he has protected them by establishing the Ordinariate where liberal Bishops will not have the ability to deny them growth.

I have found it sad to see such fractures within the Catholic Church since VII, however it will take many years for some of the difficulties caused by the spirit of VII to be removed. The Holy Father is doing his best, but how can one man control every Bishop, priest and Catholic?

The SSPX doesn’t accept anything other than the old Mass, I have no idea what their attitude towards the Eastern Rite Catholics are. Catholics must be united in the Faith, but there has always been different traditions within the Church.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[ProVobis]

I have found it sad to see such fractures within the Catholic Church since VII, however it will take many years for some of the difficulties caused by the spirit of VII to be removed.

I don’t know that much of the Anglican liturgy but it seems as if it certainly takes on a lot of that spirit of VII (as well as the ICEL) here.

youtube.com/watch?v=m3a4dwkSvsI&feature=related

Is this typical of the Anglican Use you attend? Just asking. (I do like the British accent, by the way, but…)

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I don’t know that much of the Anglican liturgy but it seems as if it certainly takes on a lot of that spirit of VII (as well as the ICEL) here.

youtube.com/watch?v=m3a4dwkSvsI&feature=related

Is this typical of the Anglican Use you attend? Just asking. (I do like the British accent, by the way, but…)

Thats not an Anglican Use parish. Have you looked at The Book of Divine Worship I linked to?

You are comparing apples to oranges. You are comparing an Anglican liturgy in your video to the Anglican Use which I am guessing you have 1) never attended and 2) have not taken the time to even look at the BDW linked earlier in this thread.

Rite One in the BDW, which seems is what most Anglican Use parishes (there are 9 such parishes and one mission in the United States) is very Traditional.

 

[angelic06]

Confirm what BernadetteM said: there are two readings plus the Gospel at OLOA San Antonio, and they are the same as the ones for the Latin Church. (I know they are the same because I used to go to the 9 am Mass at OLOA, then go to a local Catholic Student Center so that I could meet with Catholics my age. That grew tiring after about 3-4 Sundays, then I decided to remain at OLOA.)

However, we use the Graduale at OLOA instead of the Responsorial Psalm, and the Latin Novus Ordo Missae also uses the Latin Graduale.

That being said, I am confused as to what the OP wants to know regarding the SSPX and the Anglican Use Mass. If they are truly reconciled/seeking reconciliation with the Holy See, then naturally they would accept as valid all Masses/Divine Liturgies regarded as valid by the Holy See. Besides, they are just interested in the EF, right?

 

[angelic06]

This is my church, an Anglican Use (Roman Catholic) parish. Click on it and other videos by TheAtonementAcademy in order to hear what an AU Mass is like.

youtube.com/watch?v=zvWwy1dBWBs

The one you showed, ProVobis, I don’t know what it is, but the Gloria setting which was in that youtube is a common one in English Novus Ordo Masses of the Latin Church.

“Almighty God to whom all hearts…” This is the prayer of the priest, not the congregation (as shown in that youtube), sometime before the Kyrie, not the Gloria.

 

[malphono]

I don’t know that much of the Anglican liturgy but it seems as if it certainly takes on a lot of that spirit of VII (as well as the ICEL) here.

youtube.com/watch?v=m3a4dwkSvsI&feature=related

Is this typical of the Anglican Use you attend? Just asking. (I do like the British accent, by the way, but…)

I’m not an expert on this, but I think that is an Anglican (i.e., the usual Protestant) service as opposed to the Anglican Use liturgy. Try this link. I think you’ll see the difference straight away.

 

[ProVobis]

The one you showed, ProVobis, I don’t know what it is, but the Gloria setting which was in that youtube is a common one in English Novus Ordo Masses of the Latin Church.

Precisely. If I recall, it’s the Peter Jones’ version, one which corresponded to the ICEL translation.

I kind of like it, though. Too bad they’re doing away with it. I better leave this thread

 

[BernadetteM]

I don’t know that much of the Anglican liturgy but it seems as if it certainly takes on a lot of that spirit of VII (as well as the ICEL) here.

youtube.com/watch?v=m3a4dwkSvsI&feature=related

Is this typical of the Anglican Use you attend? Just asking. (I do like the British accent, by the way, but…)

There are no Anglican Use parishes where I live. Hopefully soon.

This not an Anglican Use Mass, it is an Anglican Mass.

Go to Our Lady of the Atonement Catholic Church, TX and the website has the Mass that Rome allowed them. This will be changing, hopefully soon once the Ordinariates are established and a new liturgy and prayer book will be written.

Yes the Anglican Use Mass does have some parts of the NO/OF, short responses and of course Anglican prayers from the Book of Common Prayer, which are part of our identity. The former Anglican priests who began the first AU parishes had little choice in what the liturgy would be. Now that it is worldwide many would like to see one of the Anglican Missals used. The Canon of the AU Mass is the same as the Canon of the TLM, maybe with a more Elizabethen wording. If they are allowed to follow the missal, it will be in many ways like the TLM. Prayers at the foot of the altar, Last Gospel, but with much more participation from the congregation and in English, although they will be allowed to use the TLM.

The video of the Mass is about an hour long, they removed the sermon for the video.

You can either go to the above named church or I believe their direct link to the website is Atonementonline.

If you do watch it listen carefully when the priest says the Canon, he is very quite at the Consecration. Also you will see much bowing and genuflecting during the Mass.

Let me know if you watch it and what your opinion is. This is the only Anglican Use Catholic parish that has videos of the Mass. All others are your Anglican churches Mass.

All Anglican Use priests are ordained Catholic. At least two Catholic Bishops have celebrated the Anglican Use Mass.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[BernadetteM]

I’m not an expert on this, but I think that is an Anglican (i.e., the usual Protestant) service as opposed to the Anglican Use liturgy. Try this link. I think you’ll see the difference straight away.

Just wondering if your British. My daughter lived in England for several years and still says straight away and it’s your go etc.

Bernadette

 

[BernadetteM]

This is my church, an Anglican Use (Roman Catholic) parish. Click on it and other videos by TheAtonementAcademy in order to hear what an AU Mass is like.

youtube.com/watch?v=zvWwy1dBWBs

The one you showed, ProVobis, I don’t know what it is, but the Gloria setting which was in that youtube is a common one in English Novus Ordo Masses of the Latin Church.

“Almighty God to whom all hearts…” This is the prayer of the priest, not the congregation (as shown in that youtube), sometime before the Kyrie, not the Gloria.

I wish that OLA was my parish, I just met Fr. Phillips for the first time in LA at St. Mary of the Angels, where he was giving the members information on the Ordinariate.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[malphono]

Just wondering if your British. My daughter lived in England for several years and still says straight away and it’s your go etc.

Bernadette

No, not hardly. I have, however, worked with a variety of Brits over the years. Perhaps it’s the “run off” from that, plus a good dose of English grammar (which seems to be a rarity in any school in the US these days) oh so many years ago …